Only you can prevent a plane strike

[greybeard 0]

Eloy holiday boogie. Fantastic fun and much learning for myself. Great thanks to all! The face bursting grins tell the story.

I'm local and was usually asked to lead the flock and establish the flight path. I am familiar with the geography and I know all the pilots and they all know me. All was good until my last ws flight saturday 1-3-4. Guess what, I encountered a pilot I did not know. We spoke on the ramp and although I'm sure he was an experienced and competent driver, our conversation regards flight path were unclear for my standards. This driver simply was not willing to listen to me or to issue direct implicit instructions to me. He just kept saying that I should follow the flight path from my ground brief. "I'll be long gone", he says. I suspect this driver has not dropped ws before. I most often beat the otters back to the dz.

There was a right seatter and it was obvious that discussion was not going to continue.

At this point in time and thruout the climb I realize that all is not OK! At Eloy, even during the boogie, the planes will tend to descend eastward of the runway, regardless of the jump run. This jump run at 240, meant a left bank. The ground posted flight path was left also.

As taught, I exited in line of flight, and watched the plane descend left, then 90'ed myself right. (contrary to posted flight path). My first thought was about parallel jump runs, so took the offset a full mile west, (right) before turning back down jump run flight path.

All turned out fine, but the moral of the story is....

'Only you can prevent a plane strike'.

PAY ATTENTION!

[LouDiamond 1]

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As taught, I exited in line of flight, and watched the plane descend left, then 90'ed myself right. (contrary to posted flight path). My first thought was about parallel jump runs, so took the offset a full mile west, (right) before turning back down jump run flight path.

So that was you. The S&TA about had a heart attack after that incident. You were seen in flight by the trail A/C on the parallel jump run(that you flew into) and much chatter ensued in the air and on the ground, the load almost didn't drop. Following the posted flight plan is not a suggestion, it is what has to be adhered to for safety sake. The DZ S& TA designated a specific area for tracking dives and Birdmen for a reason. A/C decent patterns were taken into account as were which jump run planes with wingsuits on them would take. That is why it was critical that the manifest annotate the load sheet that a WS was on the load. Not following the posted flight plan only causes heart ache with the DZ S&TA and it's detrimental to the use of wingsuits at future boogies. Incidents like the one you caused occurred several times during the boogie despite the repeated requests of the DZ S&TA over the PA system which in turn also led to my having to have conversations with him just to let wingsuits keep jumping. If we want to continue jumping wingsuits at large boogies everyone has to follow the flight plan. Otherwise we will be seen as a burden and too much trouble to work into the dive flow. There is no substitute for being responsible, the actions of one could potentially ruin it for the many. Lets not let that happen.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bbarnhouse 0]

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So that was you. The S&TA about had a heart attack after that incident. You were seen in flight by the trail A/C on the parallel jump run(that you flew into) and much chatter ensued in the air and on the ground, the load almost didn't drop. Following the posted flight plan is not a suggestion, it is what has to be adhered to for safety sake. The DZ S& TA designated a specific area for tracking dives and Birdmen for a reason. A/C decent patterns were taken into account as were which jump run planes with wingsuits on them would take. That is why it was critical that the manifest annotate the load sheet that a WS was on the load. Not following the posted flight plan only causes heart ache with the DZ S&TA and it's detrimental to the use of wingsuits at future boogies. Incidents like the one you caused occurred several times during the boogie despite the repeated requests of the DZ S&TA over the PA system which in turn also led to my having to have conversations with him just to let wingsuits keep jumping. If we want to continue jumping wingsuits at large boogies everyone has to follow the flight plan. Otherwise we will be seen as a burden and too much trouble to work into the dive flow. There is no substitute for being responsible, the actions of one could potentially ruin it for the many. Lets not let that happen.

Exactly right. This incident nearly ended wingsuit flying at this boogie.
BB

[kevin922 0]

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Eloy holiday boogie. Fantastic fun and much learning for myself. Great thanks to all! The face bursting grins tell the story.

I'm local and was usually asked to lead the flock and establish the flight path. I am familiar with the geography and I know all the pilots and they all know me. All was good until my last ws flight saturday 1-3-4. Guess what, I encountered a pilot I did not know. We spoke on the ramp and although I'm sure he was an experienced and competent driver, our conversation regards flight path were unclear for my standards. This driver simply was not willing to listen to me or to issue direct implicit instructions to me. He just kept saying that I should follow the flight path from my ground brief. "I'll be long gone", he says. I suspect this driver has not dropped ws before. I most often beat the otters back to the dz.

There was a right seatter and it was obvious that discussion was not going to continue.

At this point in time and thruout the climb I realize that all is not OK! At Eloy, even during the boogie, the planes will tend to descend eastward of the runway, regardless of the jump run. This jump run at 240, meant a left bank. The ground posted flight path was left also.

As taught, I exited in line of flight, and watched the plane descend left, then 90'ed myself right. (contrary to posted flight path). My first thought was about parallel jump runs, so took the offset a full mile west, (right) before turning back down jump run flight path.

All turned out fine, but the moral of the story is....

'Only you can prevent a plane strike'.

PAY ATTENTION!

I'm kinda confused as to what happened here. First of all I don't recommend going against the "predetermined flight plan" however it sounds as if this pilot didn't acknowledge he was aware of what the protocol for wingsuit flight was. I think Scott has pointed out in previous articles it is important that the pilot knows where wingsuit flyers are going, etc. This pilot may have known it but wasn't really acknowledging it based on what greybeard posted (other than the "you should fly the path from the groundbrief" which may have changed based on various conditions). Now secondly, if I exit an aircraft and plan on turning left and then see the pilot turning left as well that doesn't logically seem like a smart plan to continue with. I guess that raises a question :

You brief your pilot you are a wingsuit flyer, you tell the pilot you are going left out the aircraft, you exit the aircraft and then see the pilot descend to the left which is in your flight area. What do you do?

There is always the "other side of the story" to be told but this version does raise some questions

[bbarnhouse 0]

First off the pilots here receive daily briefings on all aspects including wingsuits. Secondly with multiple aircraft 2 minutes apart talking to the pilots isn't a good idea and is actually frowned upon after the aircraft is in motion. (I am not saying this is the case). All of the pilots here have flown at large boogies as well as world class events. Just because one hasnt seen a pilot here, doesnt mean they haven't been here for awhile, they too have schedules.Thats all I have to say 'bout that

[kevin922 0]

I"m not disagreeing with any of what you said betsy, i'm saying envison the scenerio where you tell the pilot one thing get out only to see the pilot do the exact opposite of what you're expecting and thus putting your life in danger. (again not saying that is what happened here, though it was a question I raised).

I'm not going to intentionally fly into the path of a plane because i was told that was the direction i'm supposed to go, that's assinine. (yes I'm aware with the eloy scenerio there are other planes that you could be interfering with.. yada yada).

Pilots are human, they make mistakes - i've flown with exceptional pilots who forgot to make the low pass for 1 jumper on the load, does that make him a bad pilot? No.

Furthermore every skydiver should be concerned with safety on the load, if I go up to the pilot (yes not while on jump run) and confirm with them certain aspects about the flight (ie "i'm going to be flying wingsuit, i'm going out the plane and to the left - are you aware of this?") i shouldn't be frowned upon. Its the person who gets on the plane says absolutely nothing and then gets out and flys you should wonder about.

[TALONSKY 0]

May be I do not get the bigger picture, but if the jump pilot did not acknowledge my pre-designated flight plan. Then turns left into my pre-designated flight plan, I do not care if God himself told me I had to fly that route I would use that thing between my ears and pick an alternate route. I would not fly the same side the plane is descending just because I was told that is where I needed to be and take a bigger chance that I might strike the plane. I believe it is not just a matter of right and wrong, I believe it was a matter of breaking the chain that might have led to something we would have read about on the incident report. I also find it surprising that the people who supposedly had to answer for this accident seems to have not taken any initiative to find out all the facts in the case, as they only found out the who was responsible online here. Which if the jump pilot needs some training on this matter still leaves the fixing the problem (which may mean the pilot needs to observe the wingsuit area more) for future assurance up in the air.

[LouDiamond 1]

First off, we have two issues here. Talking to a pilot and wingsuit flight plans.

Talking to a pilot ,especially at an extremely busy boogie like the Holiday boogie is not a good idea. They have lots of more important things to do than chat with the jumpers. The pilots at the boogie were well briefed on the Birdman flight patterns and where they needed to descend to avoid the Birdmen while in flight. That issue was seen to by the S& TA and myself on a daily basis, often several times during the day. The amount of things that were going on in the air that required the pilots to pay attention be it on the ground picking up jumpers or in the air was staggering. Throw in things like un announced A/C flying through jump run airspace with planes on jump run,people pulling higher than recommended and you can see the "BIG" sky gets small quickly. Chances are the pilot was probably trying to listen to what was going on in his headset and do 10 other things which is what provoked the "I'll be long gone" and "follow the ground briefing" statements. I personally spoke with just about every pilot flying at the boogie to ensure they knew what we do and what wingsuits are capable of.

As for the Birdman flight plan and the A/C both turning left, that again was coordinated by the S&TA and myself. The Birdman and tracking area consisted of a 1 mile by 1 mile square area that was easily discernible from the sky by geographical reference points. This allowed wingsuit pilots to exit, fly up the line of flight, turn 90 off and still have a mile plus to fly before entering the Birdman/tracking 1X 1 mile area. The only day this became an issue was when jump run was almost 180 and the distance between skydivers and wingsuits was compressed. To alleviate any problems the wingsuits simply had to take it out further on the base leg before turning back north. This didn't effect the wingsuits since they were still opening up wind and at an altitude that allowed for them to get back to the main or alternate area easily while not being a danger to other skydivers.


Issues like these rarely occur at the average DZ during an average jump day. Boogies, really big ones like this one and Rantoul pose a whole new gamut of safety issues and challenges for an S&TA. Throw in wingsuits which is in effect a living skydiving airplane in with other airplanes and skydivers and you have another concern on top of the other 100. Mark my words, if we as wingsuit pilots don't take this seriously and work to understand what a S&TA is faced with at a large boogie and work with them, we very well may see wingsuits prohibited at certain boogies. Flight plans and designated areas are dictated for a reason. Taking it upon yourself to randomly change it on a whim endangers your life, other skydivers and the opportunity to fly wingsuits at boogies.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

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I also find it surprising that the people who supposedly had to answer for this accident seems to have not taken any initiative to find out all the facts in the case, as they only found out the who was responsible online here.

I don't expect you to understand since you were not there and invite you to try and find out who the responsible party was when you have a major boogie underway and upwards of 100+ people who could be flying wingsuits at any one given moment. When the S&TA of a major boogie comes up to you and proposes that wingsuits are becoming an issue and that there may not be anymore flights allowed during the boogie you do your best to find out how to fix the problem, not point fingers. The facts of the case are and were known, the persons identity was not. A wingsuit flew into the parallel jump run by not following directions, endangered himself, other jumpers and almost caused several loads to not drop which equates to wasted fuel and loss of revenue. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that removing the source of the problem, IE: wingsuits, is the simple solution. We must avoid being removed from boogies because we(wingsuits) are percieved as an additional burden and potential safety hazard.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[TALONSKY 0]

How can you possibly know the cause of this incident if you did not know who did it and interview them to find out why they did it. To know that they did something they should not have done is less then half of truly trying and fixing it. Unless you have some all seeing power to know that the wingsuit pilot altered his coarse because he did not get a acknowledgement from the pilot and the pilot turned left into his pre-designated flight path.

[LouDiamond 1]

Again, I don't expect you to understand since you were not there and the described flight pattern(s) were posted daily as well as announced and wingsuit pilots were accustomed to checking the board at that point in the boogie. As BB mentioned, pilots received daily briefings and as for fixing it, I was more concerned with ensuring the wingsuit pilots knew that they needed to follow the pattern and everyones safety. Not getting acknowledgement from the pilot in this instance is not grounds to blatantly disregard the designated pattern that had been well established. I will not address suppositions as to "what if the pilot did this" as it is not germane to this incident and only serves to dilute it's seriousness. I don't need all seeing power to know what happened,I was there, I know what transpired and I know wingsuit flights at the boogie almost ceased. That in turn would have had long term effects on other large boogies since this S&TA also serves as the S&TA at the other largest boogie and is quite influential in the community. Being on his bad side is not a good thing for the wingsuit discipline.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kevin922 0]

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. I will not address suppositions as to "what if the pilot did this" as it is not germane to this incident and only serves to dilute it's seriousness.

Not sure the logic to not responding to it, if you want we can start a new thread. I think this raises a serious question that should be thought out instead of passed off as pure wingsuit-pilot error. How do you know you won't find yourself staring at the props of an aircraft when you're flying? Shit happens, it's nice to be prepared for it. I'm interseted in what your opinion is on what you should do in such a scenerio, as of right now it sounds like your stance is to "follow your flight plan no matter what".
Again, i am talking about a what-if scenerio right now, not what happened in eloy - but the thought process came from the description of the eloy event.

[pattersd 0]

I made 12 wingsuit flights at the boogie, on each of them I flew a left hand pattern, and on each of the them the jump plane flew a left hand pattern descending out in front of me. The jump planes flew an extended left hand pattern flying up the line of flight in a fairly gradual descent for ten seconds or so, until they had gained some separation, then they made a long sweeping left turn with an increasing rate of descent. the chance of conflict between the birdman and the jump plane was very small, it would have taken a lot of effort from the birdman to cut the corner and get down to the plane as it started its left hand descent. After a few jumps I could have pointed to the general vicintiy of the jump plane without looking at any point in my flight. It is your job as a pilot to be alert for other aircraft.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Again, i am talking about a what-if scenerio right now

I realize that and think a seperate thread should be started if that is the subject you want to focus on. My concern is the Eloy issue and nothing more in this thread. There was nothing to indicate by the wingsuit pilots own admission besides not having a discussion with the pilot that he was in any sort of danger of striking an A/C. He did however take it upon himself to deviate from the established plan and in turn endagered himself, other skydivers and possibly jepordized future wingsuit use at boogies. My goal is to further the education of everyone involved in wingsuit flying and help others safely intergrate it into "mainstream" skydiving operations. I will not allow safety to be compromised be it a skydive or wingsuit flight. Being that we are all wingsuit pilots in this forum, I would hope that everyone involved could wrap their head around the issues I pointed out about dealing with pilots, S&TAs, and large boogies. If it isn't apparent the severity of the issues and the ramifications that I mentioned then I question that persons need to be skydivinig let alone flying a wingsuit.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[greybeard 0]

I defend my actions and feel that I acted in a logical and safe manner, taking into account the multiple jump run scenario.
However, I also think that Lou and Betsy are 'right-on' with their larger view. Ultimately, I was in the wrong.

Repeat: I was in the wrong.

In this particular instance, I was saving myself, but failed to recognize the implications broadcast to the greater picture. Perhaps I should have followed the a/c I just launched from. Well, obviously, I was supposed to do just that.

Perhaps ground instruction might have set up this scenario and instructed my idiot self on the complexity of the flight paths visa vis following the jump ship, who'd a thunk!

I will not argue right and wrong here, I think I was wrong. It is interesting tho that the S&TA was watching my landing to critiue my new canopy. He knew exactly who was who, when and where.