skydiven4fun 0 #1 December 5, 2002 I was wondering if anyone has heard of anything as far as the military trying or using a wingsuite for special operations, I know that they have the money to research things like this. anyone have any comments on this.Still here after all these years Clayton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #2 December 5, 2002 I could tell ya, but i'd have to kill ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sonic 0 #3 December 5, 2002 I'd imagine they have, but it's carrying kit as well I suppose. Gonna really screw up the aerodynamics of the thing.----------------------------------- It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #4 December 5, 2002 I'm sure someone has looked at it but the practicality is the big issue. Unlike the movies where the guy goes in with one endless magazine, a realistic combat load has to be taken in with the soldier and most times , a unrealistic load is given to him. Any means of infiltration will have to support not only the soldier but the equipment he will be carrying. So I'm sure you can see the shortcomings of the wingsuit. However, that 007 PHASST wing in another forum has some promise. If it can actually do some of the things it claims to be able to do, you just might see that in the inventory one day. I know when I showed it to a bunch of people they had a serious interest in it. I'll sure as hell volunter to test it out "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pd190 0 #5 December 5, 2002 4fun, Right now I know that the USMC is working hard on a system to tandem equipment, I mean heavy equipment. Boat motors, motorcycles, Dune buggies, inflatable rafts and things of that nature. They have tried working with para-planes, both foot launched and wheeled. I don't think that we'll ever see wingsuits into military application. The aerodynamics of a wingsuit, combined with combat equipment, and the skill needed to fly one are to great. However, keep your eyes opened for powered wings. I hear some boys are beginning test flights of some powered rigid wings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #6 December 5, 2002 I think every branch is WAY ahead of the Corps, been there done that. The tandem thing is a staple be it human or up to 500 lbs cylindrical bundles, atvs etc.. The para point thing was kicked around and it had hits and misses. It was feasible in that you could steer a bundle under canopy while you were under canopy as well or while you were on the ground. But the practicality of it was outweighted by the pain in the ass it was at times. They also kiked around the RAM canopy with a big fan motor on the back around a few years back that you could actually fly, the same for the ultra lights but it all boils down to practicality and realistically how much range it has and if the trouble is worth the effort when the same end state can already be reached using some thing we alreay use and have. The thing that makes the PHASST attractive is the ability to continue flying after the jumper has gotten off of it and fly a predetermined route. I'm curious as to it's range once deployed from the aircraft. if it can fly a jumper lets say an additional 100+ miles and carry a full load then it might find it's place in the inventory. It also has to be easy to fly, safe and cost effective, Basically idiot proof."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #7 December 10, 2002 You can go out HAHO and move farther (unless there is a kicking wind). The aerodynamics of the thing would be shot with even a simple basic combat load.....a much smaller type of load than SF would use. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #8 December 11, 2002 QuoteYou can go out HAHO and move farther (unless there is a kicking wind). The aerodynamics of the thing would be shot with even a simple basic combat load.....a much smaller type of load than SF would use. Ron I'll call bullshit on that one. Have many a HAHO in my book to base my statement on. If that wing can move like they claim it can it will travel farther than a man under a canopy which is far less aerodynamic that the wing and probablly cover the distance faster. That in turn means less exposure and time in the saddle with numb ass and legs when you get to the ground.Not to mention that getting out at 35k with a full load,O2 and a nav board strapped to you wouldn't sound as bad. I'd wager you could go A LOT farther....if that thing works like they claim. As far as the load goes on the wing. From the picture it appears there is already a piece of material between the riders legs where a rucksack would normally be and it appears to be about as big. If they can build it with the engine assist I don't see the load being an issue at all unless aerodynamics are effected somehow.And if it does work with the engine assist I'm sure some pencil neck will come up with another 100 lbs of "light weight" gear for us to carry"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #9 December 11, 2002 Well, the "real" answer to the problems associated with both HAHO and the limited feasibility of carrying any amount of load with a wingsuit is the new parapente/skydiving hybrid canopy that is being developed. There was a thread in the Gear and Rigging forum some time ago which actually showed a photo of it. Anyway, the canopy in question has a MUCH farther glide than a standard skydiving canopy, just like a parapente canopy. Problem with those very efficient wings is that you couldn't rig them for a "skydiving" deployment without fear of blowing them up. This, apparently, has been resolved by the company producing the canopy I am talking about. The photo shown in the thread I am talking about actually shows a BASE jumper sailing around under it after a successful cliff jump, apparently trying to catch thermals in order to get back to his original launch point; fantastic. The discussion which followed talked about the fact that if the canopy could be built in a size to support a combat equipped jumper at the optimum wingload, then there would never again be the need to expose troops to the extreme conditions at 35,000 under canopy. One could travel the exact same distance from 12,000 feet of canopy flight. Still, you would be under canopy about the same amount of time, so if exposure to ground surveillance was an issue, then maybe it wouldn't be much of a help. Back to another issue: It takes quite a bit of strength to maintain an effectively inflated wing in a BirdMan suit when you are carrying any sort of load; a piggy-back rider for example. With a load, your rate of descent is also decreased. True, you can still go a VERY long way with a person on your back, but I am not sure how much of a load one could carry. A "three day pack" like we are issued for short CSAR-type missons would sit easilly on top of the back of the leg wing and I have already designed and applied a method of attaching twin 53's and the rest of a military 02 system in an aerodynamic fashion to a wingsuit jumper. We had Jari completely rigged and ready for a "longest freefall" record at Quincy a year and a half ago, but couldn't get the requisite FAA approval. Bottom line here is that I would be plenty comfortable just jumping an 02 system and a three-day pack up to about 75 pounds with a wingsuit, but I don't think I would want to be jumping my big ruck. You just don't have any way of keeping the thing from washing around (can't step through the straps with a leg wing) without affixing some sort of alternate tie-down to the backs of your leg wing. This, of course, assuming you are flying your ruck out back. You would totally ruin the aerodynamics of the suit if you flew your ruck up front. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #10 December 11, 2002 There is no way in hell you could get me out of an A/C with a 3 day pack in a wing suit chuck. you might be able to do shit like that but think of all the other root heads out there who can't even fly themselves( you know who I mean). I can only imagine the challenges a wing suit would add to the equation. Kinda like the other thread on wingsuits and water landings. I think that PHASST wing has some applications, again, if it does what they say. I'm sure it might be a bit of a chore to get off of it with a ruck on at first but maybe a simple roll over would allow for a rider to free himself from the wing and go back into normal freefall."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #11 December 11, 2002 Quotewas a thread in the Gear and Rigging forum some time ago which actually showed a photo of it. If you can find the thread I'd like to see it. I've had a look but it's eluding me. There's a news update on the Nervures site which reads: QuoteDENALI 28 : Glide ratio 7:1 & 1,3 m/s sink rate reached with a parachute. Sea report concerning Denali test Aerial N° 26 Oct , Nov 2002. I found Aerial magazine but they don't put all the articles online - just a brief description of each issue's contents and no mention of Nervures in issue 26. The most recent issue (#27) does have a picture of a Skyray though...anyone read this magazine? Edit: cross-posted into Gear and Rigging GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #12 December 12, 2002 QuoteI think that PHASST wing has some applications, again, if it does what they say That's a couple of times you've mentioned that, what is it? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #13 December 12, 2002 http://www.nervures.com/parachut.htm is the link to the parachute I was talking about. Notice that the person in the photo is also wearing a wingsuit. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #14 December 13, 2002 QuoteNotice that the person in the photo is also wearing a wingsuit. Deug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #15 December 13, 2002 QuoteQuoteI think that PHASST wing has some applications, again, if it does what they say That's a couple of times you've mentioned that, what is it? Gus It's the ridgid wing that appeared in the newest james bond movie.. i posted pics of it on another thread i believe in general skydiving discussion - talking about james bond. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #16 December 13, 2002 Found it, thanks. Cool GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #17 December 13, 2002 it is not possible to use a skyray for a haho jump with cargo due to aerodynamics. military applications for a skyray involve removing the pilot alltogether and use a cargo pod in place, with guidance being by computer. skyray is currently looking into the possibility of using our flight computers for this application for the german military. as far as haho canopies, we have already demonstrated wings that can fly haho missions at free fly foward speeds up 80mph with glide ratios up to 4.6 more than double the current capability. at slower speeds we have demonstrated a glide ratio of 6.1. deployment speeds up to 190mph. paragliders have been base deployed by a group of italian and french designers for years. i know many of them well. i think they are nuts but what you do not realize is that the canopies are not packed. not in the sense of skydiving canopies. neuvres is the only other company demonstrating a paragliding deisgn wing that can be 'packed' and they have not crossed the bridge of problems for high speed deployments yet. the neuvers canopy is available through paraflite. sincerely, dan<><>Daniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #18 December 13, 2002 Well there ya go. That's the best answer I've heard so far as far as what it is capable of. If thats the case then I seriously doubt the Military will adopt it for use since they have pretty much all ready achieved that with the Parapoint system. Of course, all of that could change if technology allows for current limitations to be surpassed."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
