rigging65 0 #26 September 11, 2003 QuoteEver heard of LINE-DUMP before?? I have line dump every single time I get out of the plane, never bothers my openings a bit. Now, bag strip (or bag dump) will screw you up.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #27 September 11, 2003 QuoteThe design of the canopy itself plays an important role as well. So if you are comparing openings of the same canopy, then yes, those two things matter, but since you bring about shape of the slider, it seems as if you are talking about generalities. And if you disagree, I invite you to try jumping a crossbraced canopy without a partially formed nose. There's a reason they don't make them that way - they would break you Actually, there are sometimes different sizes and shape sliders for a given canopy model...just ask Icarus. Often, as a fix to a somewhat ill-tempered canopy, a different slider is installed to help stop the problem...and it isn't always simply a bigger slider! There are some general guidelines in canopy design that seem to keep openings tamed, but from canopy to canopy you see different trim, different airfoil shapes, different nose construction, etc... I'll agree with you that canopies generally need to fall within a certain range in their design specs (I'm sure some of the canopy Mfgs. that lurk here could lend more to this), but I still say that packing a canopy the same, clean way will help maintain constant, clean openings...they may be faster or slower, but they'll be clean. To control opening speeds, it's been my experience that slider size and shape (and most importantly, placement) are the major determinants of how a canopy is going to open. Too big a slider, the canopy opens hard...too small a slider, the canopy opens hard as well...you've got to get it just the right dimensions and just the right sq. footage! And, to answer another post in this thread, yes, I think that lighter grommets make a very big difference in slider efficiency. Of course, you've got to be aware of the impact of using brassies on a rig (ie- you really need soft-links or very good, often check slider bumpers). The lighter the slider is overall, the more efficient it can be in using the wind to combat gravity and hold your lines together as you decelerate! Always a good thing "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 September 11, 2003 The deployment system probably has little to do with your problem. You said you tried all methods of packing, but I'll cove a few points. Roll the nose and the tail well, make sure the slider is up against the stops, pull the slider way out in front, ect. If none of this works, talk to a rigger about adding a slider pocket to your canopy. This may do wonders and solve the problem you are having. Oh, and so I don't feel left out, Precision Aerodynamics has the best opening line of canopies in the industry right now. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamspoild 0 #29 September 11, 2003 I stumbled accross this at PD. Thought it might be insightful (it was to me! http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #30 September 11, 2003 QuoteThat brrings up the question, is there any merit to the arguement of lighter grommets on a slider makes it open softer? Yes and no. The heavier the gromets are the more likely the slider will start traveling down the lines befor the canopy has spread to the limets of the slider. This will cause the slider to be less efective at reefing the canopy. If the slider moves down the lines just a little more there is a theory that a presure buildup on the botom skin can get the slider started down the lines even faster. I have a buddy hasn't jumped for 10 weeks or so, due to an injury because just this sort of thing happened to him on a Velocity. IMO brass gromets and softlinks are the way to go. Any manufacturer should be willing to make it this way.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #31 September 11, 2003 QuoteQuoteNothing that happens before the canopy clears the bag affects the opening behavior of the canopy. Maybe not the opening behavior of the canopy itself, considered in isolation, but considered as an entire sequence and it's affect on your opening shock, it sure can! ...Ever heard of LINE-DUMP before?? I agree, that PC size, aside from the relative speed it may get your d-bag to line stretch, will in reality have NO affect on your canopy's opening speed (or shock in this instance) ...but if your lines are not entirely stowed, or otherwise "dump" before you have come to full line stretch ...when that canpoy leaves the bag, I gauran-f'ing-tee you it's gonna HURT (at the very least)! And Mike.... THAT does indeed happen BEFORE the canopy leaves the bag. Yea, what Derek said. I have been jumping a main D bag that I made and only has two stows, the locking stows. The rest of the lines I put in a pocket like on a reserve bag. Several years ago I made 200+ jumps with out a bag at all. I would S fold the lines in the pack tray and fold the canopy on top. It was called a "Trash Pack". I think John Sherman came up with it. It worked fine if your body position was good. If you body position was bad things could get real scary. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #32 September 11, 2003 Quote would S fold the lines in the pack tray and fold the canopy on top. What held the slider up?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #33 September 11, 2003 Terminal deployments without a bag at all?... QuoteI would S fold the lines in the pack tray and fold the canopy on top. Interesting. What sort of canopy folding method would you use (I assume something just a bit different than your standard "PRO pack") so as to assure that the main did not come to a quick & full inflation prior to it having the capability of pulling the lines to some sort of tension/stretch? ...Now THAT (inflated before stretch) otherwise I would think, would certainly HURT! I had heard of somebody doing this with some sort of single rubber band around the folded canopy. As the pc pulled the (held in one single-wrapped band) canopy to line stretch, and as the nose began to catch air, the band either broke or was forced off the canopy & voila! ...Nice smooth deployment. Excess top-skin wear I think, was the death of that method. What canopy folding/securing method did you use?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #34 September 11, 2003 Probally the rolling of the tail. Same thing that holds the slider up if you pack a Lightning with a tail pocket.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #35 September 11, 2003 QuoteProbally the rolling of the tail. Same thing that holds the slider up if you pack a Lightning with a tail pocket. I've been jumping tailpocketed Lightnings for quite a few jumps now and have never rolled the tail. As far as I can tell, the only thing that holds a Lightning slider up is the locking stow. Depending on how I treat the nose (very tightly rolled to wide open) I can get anything from a gentle snivel to a real slammer. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #36 September 11, 2003 I used a very rough form of the pro pack, wrapped the tail around the whole thing and wola "Trash Pack". After some problems with lines catching on the container flaps, I started stowing them in a tail pocket which was the idea of Hank Ascuitto the same guy who invented the curved pin. This was around 1980,1981. Skydiving was more exciting back then. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #37 September 11, 2003 QuoteQuote would S fold the lines in the pack tray and fold the canopy on top. What held the slider up? The bag does nothing to hold a slider up. Inertia kept it up until line stretch and then the deployment would be like any other deployment. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #38 September 12, 2003 QuoteTerminal deployments without a bag at all?... ***Interesting. What sort of canopy folding method would you use ... I had heard of somebody doing this with some sort of single rubber band around the folded canopy. a.k.a "free-packing" or "free-bagging" There was a piece of nylon webbing, about 2 inches wide and maybe 18 inches long, sewn at one spot to one of the stabablizer panels. It had a grommet on one end, and a rubber band on the other. Lay the canopy on the side with the strap, side pack it. Roll (actually make several folds) the tail to the B lines, fold the nose to the A's, then to the B's. Pull the slider up, wrap that strap around the canopy, put the rubber band through the grommet and put one stow of lines through it. Pick up the container, set it by the canopy. Coil the lines into the container, fold the canopy on top of the lines, close. I don't recall ever having a bad opening. Used it for two base jumps. Strato Cloud canopy; the tail material started going after about 300 jumps -- don't know whether that was caused by the packing/deployment method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #39 September 12, 2003 Just wantd to mention: Do not to try this at home unless you really know what you are doing. Lines can wrap around a main flap making it impossible to cutaway the main and risking a main-reserve entanglement. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #40 September 12, 2003 QuoteJust wantd to mention: Do not to try this at home unless you really know what you are doing. Lines can wrap around a main flap making it impossible to cutaway the main and risking a main-reserve entanglement. Yeah, what he said. Which is why pretty much everyone stopped doing this a couple of years after it became popular. Gary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #41 September 12, 2003 Quote The info is not useless. The size of your pilot cute is what will effect your deployment, not the way it is deployed. Buy a PD canopy. Be happy for a long time. I don't know what you want out of a canopy, but the openings on the Sabre2, Spectre, Stiletto, and Velocity are all excellent. All will perform better then your current canopy. Really? I jump a PD canopy - but all manufacturers have problems. Sabre 2 tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
