Frankyspanky 0 #51 June 29, 2011 Well when if many of you people can say Atmonauti is neither a discipline nor a manoeuvre, then go and tell the FAI. It was a compulsory manoeuvre at the World Parachuting Championships for a number of competitions so has been recognised by the FAI.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
78RATS 0 #52 June 29, 2011 Skip to two minute mark and you will see we invented this shit when Simon was in grade school. haha. Peace John Matthews. Click Rat for Life - Fly till I die When them stupid ass bitches ask why Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #53 June 29, 2011 Quote Well when if many of you people can say Atmonauti is neither a discipline nor a manoeuvre, then go and tell the FAI. It was a compulsory manoeuvre at the World Parachuting Championships for a number of competitions so has been recognised by the FAI. You sure told us!! Tell me the physics are actually how it's described on the website and especially that funky leg down picture. Call it anything you want to. An eagle and an over under is the same move yes? When we (the general we) started naming freefly moves, people that named the same moves had to switch to the popular name. I can back track right up to another jumper and take a dock. It's still tracking but you're still welcome to call it autmonauti.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcoT 1 #54 June 30, 2011 Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques , knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #55 June 30, 2011 Care to date the video? I didn't think so. It obviously could not have been before the year 1998 because that's the year flying at an angle was invented 108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aeroflyer 0 #56 June 30, 2011 QuoteNot that stupid, completely senseless diagram again! It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists... You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims. I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated. I think this diagram is just to give a basic indication of the position.. and it does that fine. In the "atmo" position, the air does feel like its going head to toe, in reality, you will be at a small angle of attack. However, what you said in the quote is not true - cambered airfoils, or more simply shapes with greater curvature over the top than the underside can in fact produce lift at a zero angle of attack. The rig on one's back may be creating this effect but aerodynamics around a human are very complex and subtle. Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure. It is however operating farther away from the stall which means the speed will be greater (obviously). In a track, you may or may not be stalled.. as in flow separating off your back. The flying human is an extremely low aspect ratio aerofoil, which means that we stall at very (high 20 - 30 degree, perhaps) angles of attack. It would be useful to look at the results for delta wings of small AR and compare them to how we fly... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #57 June 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteNot that stupid, completely senseless diagram again! It shows a zero angle of attack, claiming that you can get enough lift (even though they aren't making the shape with their body that would make lift, and they are at a zero angle of attack) that the relative wind will be in the same direction as your body is pointed, that you will be travelling in that same direction that you are pointed! Do you really believe that? Even the group of pics of people supposedly doing atmowhatever clearly show that not to be the case, but the diagram persists... You need not wonder why atmowhatever is ridiculed when they continue to make such stupid claims. I'm sure it is fun, and is a lot more involved than a simple tracking dive, but you aren't travelling with the wind going as indicated. I think this diagram is just to give a basic indication of the position.. and it does that fine. In the "atmo" position, the air does feel like its going head to toe, in reality, you will be at a small angle of attack. No, it is wrong in a very fundamental way. Just because the air feels like it is moving head to toe doesn't justify a complete misrepresentation of the facts. So now the rig is what is giving lift, sure it will, but I thought atmo was about some incredible new discovery in flying position?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #58 June 30, 2011 QuoteQuote Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure. It's easy to estimate just compare resulting path (glide angle) Or even more simple - who do you think will wly further horizontally from the same exit altitude till same deployment alti?Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites genfreefly 0 #59 June 30, 2011 ________________________________________________ Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again ________________________________________________ paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs. i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dqpacker 7 #60 June 30, 2011 Quote ________________________________________________ Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again ________________________________________________ paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs. i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them Fucking Awesome!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frankyspanky 0 #61 July 1, 2011 QuoteYou sure told us!! Cool Just putting it out there, The FAI uses the term eagle so... You can listen to the ghetto chinese whispers or you can use what is ratified by the most respected interntional sport aviation body.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #62 July 3, 2011 Wow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh! Not discrediting Marco T’s contribution to the sport an all, but please lets get someone to do the math on this one and put the lift thing to bed! Atmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. The concept of freeflying is massive in scope. When Olav with the help of others initially realised the concept and its potential, it literally opened up the sky’s for everyone. The sad fact is that any attempt to create something outside of this original concept is to deconstruct it and create a sub discipline of sorts. That is until we’re able to fly upwards through some sort of technological advancement in the future? I don’t doubt that Marco has helped and inspired many flyers out there and also helped to advance peoples understanding of what is personally achievable but claims on angles is pushing it. If by giving things names help people to do new things then so be it but flyers have to be careful not to forget the bigger picture. Getting stuck on one thing, RW for instance, (Cheeky swipe at the flatties) is like going for a meal in the world’s best Indian restaurant and only having the Popodoms! I say go wild and eat everything! Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc…. Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Label what you want, but the last thing people need in the world is more boundaries! Wouldn’t it be nice if we all just let it all go? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frankyspanky 0 #63 July 4, 2011 QuoteWow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh! LOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though... QuoteAtmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. Sure does, but we need to define each manoever. Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc. I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets... Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #64 July 4, 2011 QuoteLOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though... I don’t think anyone’s out to discredit Atmonauti as a sub discipline at all, as much as anyone would discredit VRW or similar. I could be wrong but I think the issue is with angles being claimed in the name of Atmonauti and other Pseudo scientific claims that a flyer is generating lift in any real sense. Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction. Strong opinions, Great, if Atmonauti is a solid concept then it should welcome the challenges and would be able to prove that the science behind its claims. However, what we seem to get time and time again is an emotive response with no real answer. If people didn’t question things where would we be? Still believing that light travels through ether? Flat earth theory? QuoteSure does, but we need to define each manoever. Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc. I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets... Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it. I agree in terms of Judging, people need certain guidelines in order to distinguish certain manoeuvres. Atmonauti is used by the FAI, IPC…. To help people understand what is going on in order to aid the judging process. Fair enough. There needs to be structure for competitions. But hang on, just because a bunch of officials need guidance, does that mean we need the same thing? I think Id rather ride my bike without the stabilisers on now that I’m a big boy. The tracking head up thing??? I wouldn’t say head up flying is very different from tracking at all. You’re still moving right? What about feet first ‘Atmo’ tracking. That’s in a sort of a head up orientation right? But its moving horizontally….? Flying is flying, in any orientation in any body position. Whether your moving straight down or at an angle or horizontal, your still moving from a to b. To be able to achieve this under control is part of the wider concept of freeflying developed by Olav and a small handful of other guys way back when. For competitions and personal training in specific angles / body positions, then Ok lets give stuff a label so we can make thing easy. But let’s not claim that someone invents the angle, or the position, that’s just silly. If the Atmonauts want recognition I suppose at the very most they can lay claim to the development, like you say, of a specific manoeuvre within the wider concept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aeroflyer 0 #65 July 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure. It's easy to estimate just compare resulting path (glide angle) Or even more simple - who do you think will wly further horizontally from the same exit altitude till same deployment alti? I would love to compare some data, but I don't have a gps to test this out with. What I've been doing is looking where I started over the ground, looking where I finish, and making a note of the altitudes. Then one can use google maps to get a rough idea. Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWPoul 1 #66 July 4, 2011 Quote Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable.It doesn't surprise me:) The higher overall speed - the higher its Horisontal component (in angle flying) but High L/D is high relation between H and V component not just high H:)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marcoT 1 #67 July 5, 2011 Yes Newell , the discussion goes on but it looks you say always the same things as in the precedents posts , on the different platforms ( last one in the Atmonauti group on face book ) , so no problem , let’s talk again to inform correctly the people reading . I start posting my first post on DZ.com answering to Stefania Martinengo in 2004 , incredible current again after 7 years ! : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1403614;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ( post n.8 ) "Is easy to talk and say that you guys have invented everything before the others.... I just say one thing: stop to talk and show videos , pictures , articles sketch … We have set up a new technique of fly that was not existing before and we have call it “atmonauti” I mean “atmosphere navigators” ! With this technique we have do a lot of new staff never seen before ! we have document all this maneuvers in our web site with dates and references! If you want to see all these manoeuvres go to www.atmonauti.com , page Atmonauti, section Guinness. If somebody don’t think so , well no problem, but please, start to produce video or picture or whatever with dates and references. Words or dreams or philosophic definition , are not enough ! You say that “free fly” or “flock” is everything … I say free fly or flock is just what you have show and what everybody have see until now … no more , no less ! If tomorrow somebody come out with something new or different , never seen before, is right that he call like he want ! That’s the unique way to keep open the evolution ! " So after 7 years of my request to show some trace of the pioneer experimentation, still happen just a lot of words only . In my opinion is a big mistake to try to include everything in freefly , that I repeat was exactly what was shown and presented until end of the ’90 … no more , no less . This mean affirm that freefly conception (arrive later) includes head up (existing before Zipser) , include the free-style (existing before Zipser) and every other discipline and positions existing before . This mean disincentives (not encourage ) any new experimentation , because the eventual new discover will be insert by default in the “free fly (everything including)” box …. That if I don’t remember wrong is also a trade mark (?!?) …. at reverse of Atmonauti that do not have any label any registration any trade mark … just a game and a definition for everybody for free !!! As I was wrote in the skydiving magazines articles in years 2000 ! And do not forget the meaning of the term : Atmosphere Navigators …. Pretty indicate for this activity and ,why not, pretty cool too listening the thousands of people (including You) around the all world I have been teaching this, in the last 12 years . I’m very happy Free Fly today is evolve in a real “3D Space” thanks the Atmonauti concepts , but try to put Atmonauti in the corner, affirm than Atmonauti is just one angle , and freefly was any way including all this , is just ridiculous and a non sense in front of the history . It is true that this ambient have not much historic memory , I consider this a limit , I will try inform about history of happened facts , as much I can ….. To know very well history , to give the right credit , to respect people that have do something positive , to avoid confusion (specially for beginners) are the minimum conditions for hope in a possible EVOLUTION , and for to be considerate a serious sport ! (… And any way , why Newell you ware not telling me all this things , in 2004 at Perris in all the atmo organized jump I run there ? ? ? ! ! ! ) Do not forget also that the Atmonauti fly is very easy and accessible to everybody, in the game with all the friends (not only in the ground) since the beginning , without necessity of expensive 1-o-1 , learning fast to fly different angle and different speed (of course starting from the more easy angles) in front and in back , and in default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! …) . So how you can try to define all this with the Free Fly tm existing before ? For years , at least from 95 to 2000 , and even for many years later , when you were going to the boarding area saying “freefly” everybody was knowing exactly that you will go in vertical hi-speed freefalling with this amazing vertical new game head-down (Olav position !!!) and head-up … Even when you was going to the bording area for the traditional track jumps , you was talking about “tracking dive” , not free fly tm (everything including discipline ) … Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things . Differently from today with a lot of confusion (artificially create) and many definition come out later about the same thing . This is if we want to see the facts in real , differently mean try to force something , so will be interesting to know why . The sure is that the beginners in the sport , instead of have something clear and easy in front of them , they have a big mess than do not help the progression . Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things , and for avoid confusion ! Fair enough ? Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc…. Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Quote Personally it kills me the way SOME people are predisposed to keep steady this amazing evolution for some personal interest . It kills me to know , that the same pleasure that the guys have here with 100 jumps flying atmo with ALL , can’t be yet for everybody in the world , because most of the time they do not know the existence of this revolutionary system … thanks this big confusion and peoples have create this ! I ask a reflection to all the skydiving communities about this matter …. Adopt this new discipline allows to play the beginners since the start , and that permit to go big in the sky in total safety with a great benefit for the drop Zone operations too ! We are at disposition to everybody want to help this process of REAL and SURE evolution of our SPORT ! Considering also than all the different free fall discipline are performed more and more in the wind-tunnel , especially in hi-level ; Atmonauti is the pure human fly possible ONLY from an airplane (or from a very high cliff of course) . Considering so the increasing of the activities in the Drop Zone (Actually become a FLY ZONE) with : Atmonauti camp (no 1-o-1 necessary!) , Atmonauti big way contact and no contact (WITH EVERYBODY) ; Atmonauti World Record contact and no contact ; ARW Atmonauti Relative Work o Formation Skydiving ( check this ARW 30 POINTS : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-bHrC32T8 to see the huge potentiality of this new ARW discipline) and many many possible games ! Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction*** True , but actually a lot more … a part the revolutionary theory of the LIFT that you do not want to see , sorry but I have to continuous to remember : Atmonauti Fly with Airplane in 99 , Atmonauti Giglilola Freestyle in 2000 ( the first presentation of the new technique Atmonauti to the world was in freestyle with an amazing complete routine in Atmonauti with completely new manoeuvres !!! … Tandem Atmonauti , many possible games as ARW , RACE , CHALLENGE etc. ) The Atmonauti group jump was the way to transmit easy and for FREE to everybody the new REVOLUTIONARY technique , with the aim of play more and more this incredible new game ( I was not really aspect this negative evolution of the story with protagonist a lot of ex-friends) ! If you try to limit Atmonauti to only this “group basic training” , is just unfair and contribute in the atmonauti-erasing attempt …. And is a mistake that slow down this possible big evolution . So do not write your name more and more in the list of who is trying to slowdown this positive process, from which will take a huge benefit all the Skydiving communities . Do not become famous for this . About the Atmonauti Feet First the thing is very easy : was not even imaginable before so just considerate impossible ! Ridiculous pretend to define this HUGE THING 100% ATMONAUTI with the existing tracking technique ! Search other arguments if you really want discredit Atmonauti … like this is just too easy for me. About the word “FLY” , I agree than in skydiving the term is use a bit everywhere (belly fly – sit fly – free fly ) but if you talk with aeronautic engineer or professor they will tell you than technically the word can be use only if in presence of the physic phenomenous of LIFT ! If we want evolve our sport and communicate outside the true , I think that terms and definitions are important , especially if are involved already set up and recognized technical statement : in this case the Lift question ! I think true and correct the origin definition of SKYDIVING : FREE FALL (that’s the way the course Is call AFF) …. Let’s start from here so , trying to use the term Fly with his technical aeronautic vocabulary meaning. So Newell , I don’t consider very serious technically your definition of the FLY … from A to B , and that every position is FLY … Ask aeronautic engineer ! NB . About the LIFT you affirm fur sure NOT EXISTING , I just tell you than already there are many evidence of this : 1. Vertical speed reducible till around 130 Km/h (80 Miles/h) 2. Visible effect of the Lift watching the rig goin UP and FORWARD 3. Fly time arrive to 80 and more seconds from 14.000 ft ( Double than freefly ) 4. Tandem Atmonauti : double weight but same vertical speed never pass the 200 km/h (120 Miles/h) 5. Body feel very light , and is free to move easy and perform different aerial games keeping with extremely precision , the FLYING parameters. But I can tell you also , than soon will be publishable a University research conduct by Aeronautic engineer and Aeronautic Professor about the Atmonauti theory , with very hi-level software , and I can anticipate than the amount of lift is VEEEEERY significant … ! Stay tuned (…. Soon we will see who LOL for real ) and enjoy Atmo ! Marco Tiezzi THE REAL HUMAN FLY ATMONAUTI …. THE GAME OF THIRD MILLENNIUM ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #68 July 5, 2011 Quotein default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! Now you're saying that the way it feels is evidence that the airflow is the same on the body as head down. Can't you do any better than that? Even a flat board pushing through the air at an angle of attack has significant lift. That doesn't mean it is anything worth making a big noise about.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #69 July 5, 2011 Cool man. One things for sure your super passionate about Atmo and all the work youve done to create something thats intersting, fun and creative. Fair play. cant knock it. Maybe there something lost in translation here and there but please dont think that what Im saying is that somone else has developed flying in the 'atmo' angles as a specific discipline. Its not that at all. what Im saying is that freeflying as a larger concept covers everything. thats all. obviously we could debate this for ever. Dude, I look forward to seeing the Evidence for lift. Not being sarcastic either... If its truely the case that lift generated in real terms, then great. Good stuff. Just being sceptical and thats all good. Maybe Im usng the word Fly in the wrong context. If the word fly can be used only when generating lift then everything else we do outside Atmo is falling?! Rocks droped from a hight 'fall'. are skydivers who are not doing Atmo to be catagorised in the same sense. I would dissagree but then again I dont have access to aeronautical engineers to set me straight. Dude, feel free to have the last word mate, its all cool. Its not like your out there shooting people. Its only skydiving right, just fun. Be lucky, btw, Ive moved on a little since 2004 mate. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #70 July 6, 2011 The amount of lift will be interesting to see, but the real point that gets ridiculed is the assertion that the trajectory is as shown in the diagram that is still on the websites linked earlier in this thread, and published in Parachutist. Those diagrams showed that your trajectory was with an angle of attack of 0 degrees, even at an angle of about 30 degrees to the horizontal. That is nonsense. I'm sure it is fun, and challenging, but you need not wonder why there is such ridicule.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Throttlebender 0 #71 July 6, 2011 I tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference.Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWPoul 1 #72 July 6, 2011 QuoteThe amount of lift will be interesting to see...Just take a GPS log of jump Hdistanse/Vdistance or Hspeed/Vspeed at sustained flight of unthrusted aircraft(body) is exact = Lift/Drag Or we can take one of the Atmo photo with smoke and rough estimate the "glide" angle and L/D (see the pics attached) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3133524;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; So Good tracking (with H/V ratio 1+) gives you a lot of Lift (at least more than can be seen on most Atmo photos)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #73 July 6, 2011 QuoteI tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference. The claim of that trajectory continues to be made again and again. The ridicule is deserved. It would stop of that pic on the atmo website was changed, or if leading proponents would stop making the claim.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SimonBones 1 #74 July 6, 2011 Hmmm... Looks like steep tracking in those pictures. Is the guy on the bottom of the formation atmo-ing and not tracking? Maybe atmo just means you're tracking with smoke on your ankle? Maybe I just don't understand, I'll probably never be one of these atmosphere navigators then. I'll just have to stick to being an old fashioned fleshy-flap-valve navigator instead 108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lurch 0 #75 July 6, 2011 To a hardcore Birdman this debate is bizarre. 2 days ago I was doing "atmo" chasing a fast falling student like a homesick cannonball. I frequently freefly the suit as well. A steep but slightly angled headdown is a basic tool for catching things in a wingsuit. To me this isn't a separate discipline, its just a maneuver. A wingsuit can also be effectively sitflown (I call it a "kneelfly") even backwards. You get funny looks when you approach a formation from above, in reverse. Its really just bad sitflying with more fabric than usual and a lot of backslide. I haven't bothered to invent a catchy name for this stuff. Its all just wingsuit flying. Not many fly their suits this way but I've been flying a long time and I've had time to get bored and creative with it. I know better than to think I'm the first to do this stuff. There are others. The other day at breakoff I had a LOT of extra speed and used it to execute my own planeless high speed exit at 5K. Planed out flat, got my wings to maximum droop and while I still had speed, rocked back hard on my heels. Result: I went back up a ways. VERY fun rollercoaster zoomy-uppy elevator sensation followed by gradual stall and zero-G hover at the top for a few seconds. Now what the heck do we call THAT... Omta? -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
genfreefly 0 #59 June 30, 2011 ________________________________________________ Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again ________________________________________________ paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs. i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #60 June 30, 2011 Quote ________________________________________________ Thank you for your post , appreciated …. Actually I don’t want to change any law , I have just try to communicate something ….. As I was write in that thread ( quote : “…. This are just easy Aerodynamics concepts … the real new think introduce with atmonauti is the application of this concepts to human body ! The representation on the sketches is indicative … “ ) , was an attempt to communicate this thing , and I consider a shame that for some imperfection or something that can be improve , you want put all the matter in the trash …. I will be more for catch the concept , if it is good , and help to improve the system in case there are some bugs , but this is just my opinion …. I have never impose this sketchs as new science ... they was indicative for skydivers try to communicate them , this new interesting thing compared with other existing things . that’s it …. I’m just happy that now a lot and always more enjoy atmo … I think also correct and important , define it as it was since the beginning : Atmonauti or of course Atmonaut in English , that just mean Atmosphere Navigators ( no so bad definition I think ) , this also to avoid confusion , especially now with a lot of definitions of the same thing …. Hoping you can understand my point of view , I confirm myself open to all the critiques, knowing very well do not be perfect , with the unique aim to improve. Ciao and thanks again ________________________________________________ paragraphs man. start to utilize paragraphs. i call them 'atmo-graphs'. i invented them Fucking Awesome!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #61 July 1, 2011 QuoteYou sure told us!! Cool Just putting it out there, The FAI uses the term eagle so... You can listen to the ghetto chinese whispers or you can use what is ratified by the most respected interntional sport aviation body.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #62 July 3, 2011 Wow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh! Not discrediting Marco T’s contribution to the sport an all, but please lets get someone to do the math on this one and put the lift thing to bed! Atmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. The concept of freeflying is massive in scope. When Olav with the help of others initially realised the concept and its potential, it literally opened up the sky’s for everyone. The sad fact is that any attempt to create something outside of this original concept is to deconstruct it and create a sub discipline of sorts. That is until we’re able to fly upwards through some sort of technological advancement in the future? I don’t doubt that Marco has helped and inspired many flyers out there and also helped to advance peoples understanding of what is personally achievable but claims on angles is pushing it. If by giving things names help people to do new things then so be it but flyers have to be careful not to forget the bigger picture. Getting stuck on one thing, RW for instance, (Cheeky swipe at the flatties) is like going for a meal in the world’s best Indian restaurant and only having the Popodoms! I say go wild and eat everything! Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc…. Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Label what you want, but the last thing people need in the world is more boundaries! Wouldn’t it be nice if we all just let it all go? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frankyspanky 0 #63 July 4, 2011 QuoteWow man is this topic still going on?! Lol. There still seems to be some strong opinions about Atmo huh! LOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though... QuoteAtmo, Tracking, Angle flying, headown, head up, trace, carve and blah blah blah. Surely Freeflying covers the lot? The clue is in the name: Free – flying. It covers flying; moving from A to B in the air, in all aspects, orientations and all body positions. Sure does, but we need to define each manoever. Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc. I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets... Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it.Back a hundred years ago, especially around Woodrow Wilson, what happened in this country is we took freedom and we chopped it into pieces. Ron Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #64 July 4, 2011 QuoteLOL for sure, the strongest opinions seem to be the ones that discredit it though... I don’t think anyone’s out to discredit Atmonauti as a sub discipline at all, as much as anyone would discredit VRW or similar. I could be wrong but I think the issue is with angles being claimed in the name of Atmonauti and other Pseudo scientific claims that a flyer is generating lift in any real sense. Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction. Strong opinions, Great, if Atmonauti is a solid concept then it should welcome the challenges and would be able to prove that the science behind its claims. However, what we seem to get time and time again is an emotive response with no real answer. If people didn’t question things where would we be? Still believing that light travels through ether? Flat earth theory? QuoteSure does, but we need to define each manoever. Tracking is certainly different to flying head up etc. etc. I look at it as defining each manoever as in the compulsory rounds in artistic skydiving events at FAI sanctioned meets... Atmonauti was a compulsory manoever for a while so I guess that clinches it. I agree in terms of Judging, people need certain guidelines in order to distinguish certain manoeuvres. Atmonauti is used by the FAI, IPC…. To help people understand what is going on in order to aid the judging process. Fair enough. There needs to be structure for competitions. But hang on, just because a bunch of officials need guidance, does that mean we need the same thing? I think Id rather ride my bike without the stabilisers on now that I’m a big boy. The tracking head up thing??? I wouldn’t say head up flying is very different from tracking at all. You’re still moving right? What about feet first ‘Atmo’ tracking. That’s in a sort of a head up orientation right? But its moving horizontally….? Flying is flying, in any orientation in any body position. Whether your moving straight down or at an angle or horizontal, your still moving from a to b. To be able to achieve this under control is part of the wider concept of freeflying developed by Olav and a small handful of other guys way back when. For competitions and personal training in specific angles / body positions, then Ok lets give stuff a label so we can make thing easy. But let’s not claim that someone invents the angle, or the position, that’s just silly. If the Atmonauts want recognition I suppose at the very most they can lay claim to the development, like you say, of a specific manoeuvre within the wider concept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aeroflyer 0 #65 July 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote Whether Atmo can produce better lift to drag ratios than a track I am not sure. It's easy to estimate just compare resulting path (glide angle) Or even more simple - who do you think will wly further horizontally from the same exit altitude till same deployment alti? I would love to compare some data, but I don't have a gps to test this out with. What I've been doing is looking where I started over the ground, looking where I finish, and making a note of the altitudes. Then one can use google maps to get a rough idea. Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWPoul 1 #66 July 4, 2011 Quote Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable.It doesn't surprise me:) The higher overall speed - the higher its Horisontal component (in angle flying) but High L/D is high relation between H and V component not just high H:)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marcoT 1 #67 July 5, 2011 Yes Newell , the discussion goes on but it looks you say always the same things as in the precedents posts , on the different platforms ( last one in the Atmonauti group on face book ) , so no problem , let’s talk again to inform correctly the people reading . I start posting my first post on DZ.com answering to Stefania Martinengo in 2004 , incredible current again after 7 years ! : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1403614;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ( post n.8 ) "Is easy to talk and say that you guys have invented everything before the others.... I just say one thing: stop to talk and show videos , pictures , articles sketch … We have set up a new technique of fly that was not existing before and we have call it “atmonauti” I mean “atmosphere navigators” ! With this technique we have do a lot of new staff never seen before ! we have document all this maneuvers in our web site with dates and references! If you want to see all these manoeuvres go to www.atmonauti.com , page Atmonauti, section Guinness. If somebody don’t think so , well no problem, but please, start to produce video or picture or whatever with dates and references. Words or dreams or philosophic definition , are not enough ! You say that “free fly” or “flock” is everything … I say free fly or flock is just what you have show and what everybody have see until now … no more , no less ! If tomorrow somebody come out with something new or different , never seen before, is right that he call like he want ! That’s the unique way to keep open the evolution ! " So after 7 years of my request to show some trace of the pioneer experimentation, still happen just a lot of words only . In my opinion is a big mistake to try to include everything in freefly , that I repeat was exactly what was shown and presented until end of the ’90 … no more , no less . This mean affirm that freefly conception (arrive later) includes head up (existing before Zipser) , include the free-style (existing before Zipser) and every other discipline and positions existing before . This mean disincentives (not encourage ) any new experimentation , because the eventual new discover will be insert by default in the “free fly (everything including)” box …. That if I don’t remember wrong is also a trade mark (?!?) …. at reverse of Atmonauti that do not have any label any registration any trade mark … just a game and a definition for everybody for free !!! As I was wrote in the skydiving magazines articles in years 2000 ! And do not forget the meaning of the term : Atmosphere Navigators …. Pretty indicate for this activity and ,why not, pretty cool too listening the thousands of people (including You) around the all world I have been teaching this, in the last 12 years . I’m very happy Free Fly today is evolve in a real “3D Space” thanks the Atmonauti concepts , but try to put Atmonauti in the corner, affirm than Atmonauti is just one angle , and freefly was any way including all this , is just ridiculous and a non sense in front of the history . It is true that this ambient have not much historic memory , I consider this a limit , I will try inform about history of happened facts , as much I can ….. To know very well history , to give the right credit , to respect people that have do something positive , to avoid confusion (specially for beginners) are the minimum conditions for hope in a possible EVOLUTION , and for to be considerate a serious sport ! (… And any way , why Newell you ware not telling me all this things , in 2004 at Perris in all the atmo organized jump I run there ? ? ? ! ! ! ) Do not forget also that the Atmonauti fly is very easy and accessible to everybody, in the game with all the friends (not only in the ground) since the beginning , without necessity of expensive 1-o-1 , learning fast to fly different angle and different speed (of course starting from the more easy angles) in front and in back , and in default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! …) . So how you can try to define all this with the Free Fly tm existing before ? For years , at least from 95 to 2000 , and even for many years later , when you were going to the boarding area saying “freefly” everybody was knowing exactly that you will go in vertical hi-speed freefalling with this amazing vertical new game head-down (Olav position !!!) and head-up … Even when you was going to the bording area for the traditional track jumps , you was talking about “tracking dive” , not free fly tm (everything including discipline ) … Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things . Differently from today with a lot of confusion (artificially create) and many definition come out later about the same thing . This is if we want to see the facts in real , differently mean try to force something , so will be interesting to know why . The sure is that the beginners in the sport , instead of have something clear and easy in front of them , they have a big mess than do not help the progression . Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things , and for avoid confusion ! Fair enough ? Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc…. Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Quote Personally it kills me the way SOME people are predisposed to keep steady this amazing evolution for some personal interest . It kills me to know , that the same pleasure that the guys have here with 100 jumps flying atmo with ALL , can’t be yet for everybody in the world , because most of the time they do not know the existence of this revolutionary system … thanks this big confusion and peoples have create this ! I ask a reflection to all the skydiving communities about this matter …. Adopt this new discipline allows to play the beginners since the start , and that permit to go big in the sky in total safety with a great benefit for the drop Zone operations too ! We are at disposition to everybody want to help this process of REAL and SURE evolution of our SPORT ! Considering also than all the different free fall discipline are performed more and more in the wind-tunnel , especially in hi-level ; Atmonauti is the pure human fly possible ONLY from an airplane (or from a very high cliff of course) . Considering so the increasing of the activities in the Drop Zone (Actually become a FLY ZONE) with : Atmonauti camp (no 1-o-1 necessary!) , Atmonauti big way contact and no contact (WITH EVERYBODY) ; Atmonauti World Record contact and no contact ; ARW Atmonauti Relative Work o Formation Skydiving ( check this ARW 30 POINTS : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-bHrC32T8 to see the huge potentiality of this new ARW discipline) and many many possible games ! Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction*** True , but actually a lot more … a part the revolutionary theory of the LIFT that you do not want to see , sorry but I have to continuous to remember : Atmonauti Fly with Airplane in 99 , Atmonauti Giglilola Freestyle in 2000 ( the first presentation of the new technique Atmonauti to the world was in freestyle with an amazing complete routine in Atmonauti with completely new manoeuvres !!! … Tandem Atmonauti , many possible games as ARW , RACE , CHALLENGE etc. ) The Atmonauti group jump was the way to transmit easy and for FREE to everybody the new REVOLUTIONARY technique , with the aim of play more and more this incredible new game ( I was not really aspect this negative evolution of the story with protagonist a lot of ex-friends) ! If you try to limit Atmonauti to only this “group basic training” , is just unfair and contribute in the atmonauti-erasing attempt …. And is a mistake that slow down this possible big evolution . So do not write your name more and more in the list of who is trying to slowdown this positive process, from which will take a huge benefit all the Skydiving communities . Do not become famous for this . About the Atmonauti Feet First the thing is very easy : was not even imaginable before so just considerate impossible ! Ridiculous pretend to define this HUGE THING 100% ATMONAUTI with the existing tracking technique ! Search other arguments if you really want discredit Atmonauti … like this is just too easy for me. About the word “FLY” , I agree than in skydiving the term is use a bit everywhere (belly fly – sit fly – free fly ) but if you talk with aeronautic engineer or professor they will tell you than technically the word can be use only if in presence of the physic phenomenous of LIFT ! If we want evolve our sport and communicate outside the true , I think that terms and definitions are important , especially if are involved already set up and recognized technical statement : in this case the Lift question ! I think true and correct the origin definition of SKYDIVING : FREE FALL (that’s the way the course Is call AFF) …. Let’s start from here so , trying to use the term Fly with his technical aeronautic vocabulary meaning. So Newell , I don’t consider very serious technically your definition of the FLY … from A to B , and that every position is FLY … Ask aeronautic engineer ! NB . About the LIFT you affirm fur sure NOT EXISTING , I just tell you than already there are many evidence of this : 1. Vertical speed reducible till around 130 Km/h (80 Miles/h) 2. Visible effect of the Lift watching the rig goin UP and FORWARD 3. Fly time arrive to 80 and more seconds from 14.000 ft ( Double than freefly ) 4. Tandem Atmonauti : double weight but same vertical speed never pass the 200 km/h (120 Miles/h) 5. Body feel very light , and is free to move easy and perform different aerial games keeping with extremely precision , the FLYING parameters. But I can tell you also , than soon will be publishable a University research conduct by Aeronautic engineer and Aeronautic Professor about the Atmonauti theory , with very hi-level software , and I can anticipate than the amount of lift is VEEEEERY significant … ! Stay tuned (…. Soon we will see who LOL for real ) and enjoy Atmo ! Marco Tiezzi THE REAL HUMAN FLY ATMONAUTI …. THE GAME OF THIRD MILLENNIUM ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #68 July 5, 2011 Quotein default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! Now you're saying that the way it feels is evidence that the airflow is the same on the body as head down. Can't you do any better than that? Even a flat board pushing through the air at an angle of attack has significant lift. That doesn't mean it is anything worth making a big noise about.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewnewell 0 #69 July 5, 2011 Cool man. One things for sure your super passionate about Atmo and all the work youve done to create something thats intersting, fun and creative. Fair play. cant knock it. Maybe there something lost in translation here and there but please dont think that what Im saying is that somone else has developed flying in the 'atmo' angles as a specific discipline. Its not that at all. what Im saying is that freeflying as a larger concept covers everything. thats all. obviously we could debate this for ever. Dude, I look forward to seeing the Evidence for lift. Not being sarcastic either... If its truely the case that lift generated in real terms, then great. Good stuff. Just being sceptical and thats all good. Maybe Im usng the word Fly in the wrong context. If the word fly can be used only when generating lift then everything else we do outside Atmo is falling?! Rocks droped from a hight 'fall'. are skydivers who are not doing Atmo to be catagorised in the same sense. I would dissagree but then again I dont have access to aeronautical engineers to set me straight. Dude, feel free to have the last word mate, its all cool. Its not like your out there shooting people. Its only skydiving right, just fun. Be lucky, btw, Ive moved on a little since 2004 mate. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #70 July 6, 2011 The amount of lift will be interesting to see, but the real point that gets ridiculed is the assertion that the trajectory is as shown in the diagram that is still on the websites linked earlier in this thread, and published in Parachutist. Those diagrams showed that your trajectory was with an angle of attack of 0 degrees, even at an angle of about 30 degrees to the horizontal. That is nonsense. I'm sure it is fun, and challenging, but you need not wonder why there is such ridicule.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Throttlebender 0 #71 July 6, 2011 I tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference.Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWPoul 1 #72 July 6, 2011 QuoteThe amount of lift will be interesting to see...Just take a GPS log of jump Hdistanse/Vdistance or Hspeed/Vspeed at sustained flight of unthrusted aircraft(body) is exact = Lift/Drag Or we can take one of the Atmo photo with smoke and rough estimate the "glide" angle and L/D (see the pics attached) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3133524;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; So Good tracking (with H/V ratio 1+) gives you a lot of Lift (at least more than can be seen on most Atmo photos)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 99 #73 July 6, 2011 QuoteI tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference. The claim of that trajectory continues to be made again and again. The ridicule is deserved. It would stop of that pic on the atmo website was changed, or if leading proponents would stop making the claim.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SimonBones 1 #74 July 6, 2011 Hmmm... Looks like steep tracking in those pictures. Is the guy on the bottom of the formation atmo-ing and not tracking? Maybe atmo just means you're tracking with smoke on your ankle? Maybe I just don't understand, I'll probably never be one of these atmosphere navigators then. I'll just have to stick to being an old fashioned fleshy-flap-valve navigator instead 108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lurch 0 #75 July 6, 2011 To a hardcore Birdman this debate is bizarre. 2 days ago I was doing "atmo" chasing a fast falling student like a homesick cannonball. I frequently freefly the suit as well. A steep but slightly angled headdown is a basic tool for catching things in a wingsuit. To me this isn't a separate discipline, its just a maneuver. A wingsuit can also be effectively sitflown (I call it a "kneelfly") even backwards. You get funny looks when you approach a formation from above, in reverse. Its really just bad sitflying with more fabric than usual and a lot of backslide. I haven't bothered to invent a catchy name for this stuff. Its all just wingsuit flying. Not many fly their suits this way but I've been flying a long time and I've had time to get bored and creative with it. I know better than to think I'm the first to do this stuff. There are others. The other day at breakoff I had a LOT of extra speed and used it to execute my own planeless high speed exit at 5K. Planed out flat, got my wings to maximum droop and while I still had speed, rocked back hard on my heels. Result: I went back up a ways. VERY fun rollercoaster zoomy-uppy elevator sensation followed by gradual stall and zero-G hover at the top for a few seconds. Now what the heck do we call THAT... Omta? -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
NWPoul 1 #66 July 4, 2011 Quote Just last weekend I did tracking and angles and man, angles seems so much faster.. at about 5000' 4000' the ground just goes by quicker, quite noticable.It doesn't surprise me:) The higher overall speed - the higher its Horisontal component (in angle flying) but High L/D is high relation between H and V component not just high H:)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcoT 1 #67 July 5, 2011 Yes Newell , the discussion goes on but it looks you say always the same things as in the precedents posts , on the different platforms ( last one in the Atmonauti group on face book ) , so no problem , let’s talk again to inform correctly the people reading . I start posting my first post on DZ.com answering to Stefania Martinengo in 2004 , incredible current again after 7 years ! : http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1403614;page=1;mh=-1;;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC ( post n.8 ) "Is easy to talk and say that you guys have invented everything before the others.... I just say one thing: stop to talk and show videos , pictures , articles sketch … We have set up a new technique of fly that was not existing before and we have call it “atmonauti” I mean “atmosphere navigators” ! With this technique we have do a lot of new staff never seen before ! we have document all this maneuvers in our web site with dates and references! If you want to see all these manoeuvres go to www.atmonauti.com , page Atmonauti, section Guinness. If somebody don’t think so , well no problem, but please, start to produce video or picture or whatever with dates and references. Words or dreams or philosophic definition , are not enough ! You say that “free fly” or “flock” is everything … I say free fly or flock is just what you have show and what everybody have see until now … no more , no less ! If tomorrow somebody come out with something new or different , never seen before, is right that he call like he want ! That’s the unique way to keep open the evolution ! " So after 7 years of my request to show some trace of the pioneer experimentation, still happen just a lot of words only . In my opinion is a big mistake to try to include everything in freefly , that I repeat was exactly what was shown and presented until end of the ’90 … no more , no less . This mean affirm that freefly conception (arrive later) includes head up (existing before Zipser) , include the free-style (existing before Zipser) and every other discipline and positions existing before . This mean disincentives (not encourage ) any new experimentation , because the eventual new discover will be insert by default in the “free fly (everything including)” box …. That if I don’t remember wrong is also a trade mark (?!?) …. at reverse of Atmonauti that do not have any label any registration any trade mark … just a game and a definition for everybody for free !!! As I was wrote in the skydiving magazines articles in years 2000 ! And do not forget the meaning of the term : Atmosphere Navigators …. Pretty indicate for this activity and ,why not, pretty cool too listening the thousands of people (including You) around the all world I have been teaching this, in the last 12 years . I’m very happy Free Fly today is evolve in a real “3D Space” thanks the Atmonauti concepts , but try to put Atmonauti in the corner, affirm than Atmonauti is just one angle , and freefly was any way including all this , is just ridiculous and a non sense in front of the history . It is true that this ambient have not much historic memory , I consider this a limit , I will try inform about history of happened facts , as much I can ….. To know very well history , to give the right credit , to respect people that have do something positive , to avoid confusion (specially for beginners) are the minimum conditions for hope in a possible EVOLUTION , and for to be considerate a serious sport ! (… And any way , why Newell you ware not telling me all this things , in 2004 at Perris in all the atmo organized jump I run there ? ? ? ! ! ! ) Do not forget also that the Atmonauti fly is very easy and accessible to everybody, in the game with all the friends (not only in the ground) since the beginning , without necessity of expensive 1-o-1 , learning fast to fly different angle and different speed (of course starting from the more easy angles) in front and in back , and in default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! …) . So how you can try to define all this with the Free Fly tm existing before ? For years , at least from 95 to 2000 , and even for many years later , when you were going to the boarding area saying “freefly” everybody was knowing exactly that you will go in vertical hi-speed freefalling with this amazing vertical new game head-down (Olav position !!!) and head-up … Even when you was going to the bording area for the traditional track jumps , you was talking about “tracking dive” , not free fly tm (everything including discipline ) … Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things . Differently from today with a lot of confusion (artificially create) and many definition come out later about the same thing . This is if we want to see the facts in real , differently mean try to force something , so will be interesting to know why . The sure is that the beginners in the sport , instead of have something clear and easy in front of them , they have a big mess than do not help the progression . Different definitions Newell are important to define and easy identify different things , and for avoid confusion ! Fair enough ? Personally it kills me the way people are predisposed to give everything structure, put things in boxes, label angles etc…. Horrible pattern seeking animals we all are! Quote Personally it kills me the way SOME people are predisposed to keep steady this amazing evolution for some personal interest . It kills me to know , that the same pleasure that the guys have here with 100 jumps flying atmo with ALL , can’t be yet for everybody in the world , because most of the time they do not know the existence of this revolutionary system … thanks this big confusion and peoples have create this ! I ask a reflection to all the skydiving communities about this matter …. Adopt this new discipline allows to play the beginners since the start , and that permit to go big in the sky in total safety with a great benefit for the drop Zone operations too ! We are at disposition to everybody want to help this process of REAL and SURE evolution of our SPORT ! Considering also than all the different free fall discipline are performed more and more in the wind-tunnel , especially in hi-level ; Atmonauti is the pure human fly possible ONLY from an airplane (or from a very high cliff of course) . Considering so the increasing of the activities in the Drop Zone (Actually become a FLY ZONE) with : Atmonauti camp (no 1-o-1 necessary!) , Atmonauti big way contact and no contact (WITH EVERYBODY) ; Atmonauti World Record contact and no contact ; ARW Atmonauti Relative Work o Formation Skydiving ( check this ARW 30 POINTS : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM-bHrC32T8 to see the huge potentiality of this new ARW discipline) and many many possible games ! Atmo is what it is, a fun way of flying that resolves issues with burbles in order to better aid flyer interaction*** True , but actually a lot more … a part the revolutionary theory of the LIFT that you do not want to see , sorry but I have to continuous to remember : Atmonauti Fly with Airplane in 99 , Atmonauti Giglilola Freestyle in 2000 ( the first presentation of the new technique Atmonauti to the world was in freestyle with an amazing complete routine in Atmonauti with completely new manoeuvres !!! … Tandem Atmonauti , many possible games as ARW , RACE , CHALLENGE etc. ) The Atmonauti group jump was the way to transmit easy and for FREE to everybody the new REVOLUTIONARY technique , with the aim of play more and more this incredible new game ( I was not really aspect this negative evolution of the story with protagonist a lot of ex-friends) ! If you try to limit Atmonauti to only this “group basic training” , is just unfair and contribute in the atmonauti-erasing attempt …. And is a mistake that slow down this possible big evolution . So do not write your name more and more in the list of who is trying to slowdown this positive process, from which will take a huge benefit all the Skydiving communities . Do not become famous for this . About the Atmonauti Feet First the thing is very easy : was not even imaginable before so just considerate impossible ! Ridiculous pretend to define this HUGE THING 100% ATMONAUTI with the existing tracking technique ! Search other arguments if you really want discredit Atmonauti … like this is just too easy for me. About the word “FLY” , I agree than in skydiving the term is use a bit everywhere (belly fly – sit fly – free fly ) but if you talk with aeronautic engineer or professor they will tell you than technically the word can be use only if in presence of the physic phenomenous of LIFT ! If we want evolve our sport and communicate outside the true , I think that terms and definitions are important , especially if are involved already set up and recognized technical statement : in this case the Lift question ! I think true and correct the origin definition of SKYDIVING : FREE FALL (that’s the way the course Is call AFF) …. Let’s start from here so , trying to use the term Fly with his technical aeronautic vocabulary meaning. So Newell , I don’t consider very serious technically your definition of the FLY … from A to B , and that every position is FLY … Ask aeronautic engineer ! NB . About the LIFT you affirm fur sure NOT EXISTING , I just tell you than already there are many evidence of this : 1. Vertical speed reducible till around 130 Km/h (80 Miles/h) 2. Visible effect of the Lift watching the rig goin UP and FORWARD 3. Fly time arrive to 80 and more seconds from 14.000 ft ( Double than freefly ) 4. Tandem Atmonauti : double weight but same vertical speed never pass the 200 km/h (120 Miles/h) 5. Body feel very light , and is free to move easy and perform different aerial games keeping with extremely precision , the FLYING parameters. But I can tell you also , than soon will be publishable a University research conduct by Aeronautic engineer and Aeronautic Professor about the Atmonauti theory , with very hi-level software , and I can anticipate than the amount of lift is VEEEEERY significant … ! Stay tuned (…. Soon we will see who LOL for real ) and enjoy Atmo ! Marco Tiezzi THE REAL HUMAN FLY ATMONAUTI …. THE GAME OF THIRD MILLENNIUM ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #68 July 5, 2011 Quotein default know to keep and control head down (same airflow on the body than in atmo … hundred of testimony of this by younger skydivers ! Now you're saying that the way it feels is evidence that the airflow is the same on the body as head down. Can't you do any better than that? Even a flat board pushing through the air at an angle of attack has significant lift. That doesn't mean it is anything worth making a big noise about.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #69 July 5, 2011 Cool man. One things for sure your super passionate about Atmo and all the work youve done to create something thats intersting, fun and creative. Fair play. cant knock it. Maybe there something lost in translation here and there but please dont think that what Im saying is that somone else has developed flying in the 'atmo' angles as a specific discipline. Its not that at all. what Im saying is that freeflying as a larger concept covers everything. thats all. obviously we could debate this for ever. Dude, I look forward to seeing the Evidence for lift. Not being sarcastic either... If its truely the case that lift generated in real terms, then great. Good stuff. Just being sceptical and thats all good. Maybe Im usng the word Fly in the wrong context. If the word fly can be used only when generating lift then everything else we do outside Atmo is falling?! Rocks droped from a hight 'fall'. are skydivers who are not doing Atmo to be catagorised in the same sense. I would dissagree but then again I dont have access to aeronautical engineers to set me straight. Dude, feel free to have the last word mate, its all cool. Its not like your out there shooting people. Its only skydiving right, just fun. Be lucky, btw, Ive moved on a little since 2004 mate. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #70 July 6, 2011 The amount of lift will be interesting to see, but the real point that gets ridiculed is the assertion that the trajectory is as shown in the diagram that is still on the websites linked earlier in this thread, and published in Parachutist. Those diagrams showed that your trajectory was with an angle of attack of 0 degrees, even at an angle of about 30 degrees to the horizontal. That is nonsense. I'm sure it is fun, and challenging, but you need not wonder why there is such ridicule.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Throttlebender 0 #71 July 6, 2011 I tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference.Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #72 July 6, 2011 QuoteThe amount of lift will be interesting to see...Just take a GPS log of jump Hdistanse/Vdistance or Hspeed/Vspeed at sustained flight of unthrusted aircraft(body) is exact = Lift/Drag Or we can take one of the Atmo photo with smoke and rough estimate the "glide" angle and L/D (see the pics attached) http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3133524;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; So Good tracking (with H/V ratio 1+) gives you a lot of Lift (at least more than can be seen on most Atmo photos)Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #73 July 6, 2011 QuoteI tend to view that image as more of an exaggerated example, rather than an absolute. I wouldn't hang onto that discrepancy too much if I were you. Hell, for that matter, go out and test it. I'll even go with you if you want a frame of reference. The claim of that trajectory continues to be made again and again. The ridicule is deserved. It would stop of that pic on the atmo website was changed, or if leading proponents would stop making the claim.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SimonBones 1 #74 July 6, 2011 Hmmm... Looks like steep tracking in those pictures. Is the guy on the bottom of the formation atmo-ing and not tracking? Maybe atmo just means you're tracking with smoke on your ankle? Maybe I just don't understand, I'll probably never be one of these atmosphere navigators then. I'll just have to stick to being an old fashioned fleshy-flap-valve navigator instead 108 way head down world record!!! http://www.simonbones.com Hit me up on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #75 July 6, 2011 To a hardcore Birdman this debate is bizarre. 2 days ago I was doing "atmo" chasing a fast falling student like a homesick cannonball. I frequently freefly the suit as well. A steep but slightly angled headdown is a basic tool for catching things in a wingsuit. To me this isn't a separate discipline, its just a maneuver. A wingsuit can also be effectively sitflown (I call it a "kneelfly") even backwards. You get funny looks when you approach a formation from above, in reverse. Its really just bad sitflying with more fabric than usual and a lot of backslide. I haven't bothered to invent a catchy name for this stuff. Its all just wingsuit flying. Not many fly their suits this way but I've been flying a long time and I've had time to get bored and creative with it. I know better than to think I'm the first to do this stuff. There are others. The other day at breakoff I had a LOT of extra speed and used it to execute my own planeless high speed exit at 5K. Planed out flat, got my wings to maximum droop and while I still had speed, rocked back hard on my heels. Result: I went back up a ways. VERY fun rollercoaster zoomy-uppy elevator sensation followed by gradual stall and zero-G hover at the top for a few seconds. Now what the heck do we call THAT... Omta? -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
This Site Is For Sale
