karenmeal 0 #1 July 20, 2005 I'm starting to get into some casual freefly coaching at my DZ. So I'm wondering, those of you who have sought out freefly coaching, what made for a good freefly coached jump? What tidbits helped you out the most? What made it both enjoyable and a positive learning experience for you? What things could your coach have done better? If you are a freefly coach.. what advice do you have? Thanks guys, -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gordy 0 #2 July 20, 2005 One that listens to what you want and tailors their coaching to you. One that will give you a brief directly before and after the jump while its fresh in your mind. One that looks beyond the coaching jumps to what you will be doing next. Most importantly one that makes you feel confortable, and they are approachable, as good coaching is worth every penny, if you feel your not getting your money's worth then it's way way too expensive! That has been my experience anyway! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #3 July 20, 2005 What he said. Someone with a happy, fun personality, not someone with the sort of attitute that is "above" you because you are just starting out and they are a lord of the sky, or whatever. Someone who makes it fun, as well as improving your learning and teaching you. Someone who explains things well - not just someone that says "rememer to breath" - tell us why it's important to do things, if possible, and demonstrate things on the ground. Someone that makes use of their own personal experiences to allow you to learn directly from the thousands or so jumps they might have accrued. Someone who is actively interested in seeing you progress for you, and not just in the coaching fee. Someone who uses video to debrief, pausing and playing back slowly and explaining what to concentrate on, not someone who just plays the video through quickly once or twice and gives a basic explanation. I know all of these aren't always possible as much as most of us would like but this is the sort of stuff i really thing makes for a great coaching experience. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
larsrulz 0 #4 July 20, 2005 More of something I witnessed with student coach jumps, but don't make whoever you're coaching wait around for you to pack. Unless they want to get packed up first, then do the debrief as soon as they get down, not after you make them sit around. Demonstration on the ground. If someones feet are too wide in a sit, then have them sit down in a chair and actually feel where their feet should be. Video is a useful tool; it is not the end all, be all. I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #5 July 20, 2005 If you've never jumped with the person coaching you before... How long do you expect the pre-jump briefing should take? I have trouble with this part if I haven't jumped with the person. Its hard to assess where they are at from their description of themselves. Some people think they are horrible when they are doing really awesome, and vice versa. I guess the pre-jump briefing with a new student should basically contain general freeflying and safety information and typical mistakes in body position and what not... ? How long should the post-jump briefing take? For coached freefly jumps I wouldn't charge more than slot + 5 or 10. (My slot is only 16). -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #6 July 20, 2005 QuoteHow long do you expect the pre-jump briefing should take? I have trouble with this part if I haven't jumped with the person. Its hard to assess where they are at from their description of themselves. Well....ask the student if they have video.....most will carry that kind of stuff with them if they have it ( I do) Take a look in their logbook....a good look and see what they have actually been doing ( ie pay more attention to comments that have been written by others/coaches) If all that fails....perhaps rather than coach them straight away....ask them what they are currently doing and ask them to describe how they do it and what it 'feels' like to them.... With one or more of the above .....if you are good enough to coach....I reckon you should be left with little doubt as to what to expect on exit. In terms of what makes good coaching....IMHO 1) I agree with previous posts. 2) When I see the 'fee' is more important than than coaching/enjoyment......I'm outta there....bye bye 3) Solid briefings in PLENTY of time before the lift and good debriefings afterwards... 4) No Bullshit......if you are crap...dont dress it up....but no negative criticism without a positive solution. 5) Goal orientated....works with you with a clear focus on what YOUR goals are...not theirs. 6)Maybe puts you in touch with other peeps they knows are around the same ability as yourself on the DZ for safe group diving outside of coaching. 7) Asks YOU for your opinion on how they are coaching....what worked and what didnt... 8) Doesnt take themselves too seriously.....will be happy to get drunk with you later in the day and tell you that 'I love you man ......no really.....I LOVE you man....."..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #7 July 20, 2005 I get freefly coaching from John Chisolm of the freefly mega center...argueably some of the (if not the) best flyers around. Here is a how a typical session goes: Look over the last videos...find one or two things to work on. Go over things on the ground. Since I'm sitting, I'll spend some time in a chair. We'll do both isometric and kenesthetic drills to build muscle memory. Gear up. Do some drills with gear on. Mock up exits. Then do the skydive. The FMC has in air communications setups...my coach can give me simple instructions in freefall...nice feature you might want to look into. Land and debrief immediately. We go over the video in slow mo several times, pausing to make points, etc. Then watch the jump full speed a couple of times. At the end of the day, I can firewire or burn my jumps to DVD. He also does fun jumps with me. I do whatever we've been working on while he orbits head down around me, docks on me, spins me out or something else. We always hit a sunset load crew pass to end the day. Hopefully you can pass both the head up and head down LO jumps...my coaches talk smack on freefly coaches who cannot at least do this.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #8 July 20, 2005 QuoteIts hard to assess where they are at from their description of themselves. Some people think they are horrible when they are doing really awesome, and vice versa. > I find reading students skill difficult during the prebrief also. I have the luxury of letting them feel it out or get comfortable their first minute in the tunnel. I have extra time to assess their flying but asking for video, jump #'s, tunnel time, and what they have worked on most recently seems to help me a bunch. Before a coaching session or camp I like to ask the students for their goals, expectations, and what they require of me (some students may have unique needs such as language barriers, physical limitations, etc.). This way everyone is aware of what needs to happen during your jumps or training time. You will always run into people thinking their skills are past where they actually are, this can be esp. true in the tunnel. Just because you have a lot of skydives, doesn't mean you will fly well in the tunnel, it doesn't mean you won't fly well either. They are just different environments and most people are not fully aware of the risk involved (maybe like a student wanting to learn hd right off student status- they may simply not be aware of the risk or skills envolved). Education of risks & skill involved in addition to asking questions seems to work for me. Hope this wasn't stupid.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #9 July 21, 2005 Sorry.. what does FMC stand for? And LO? As far as the coached jumps I have done in the past.. I try to do as much as I can. The experience level of freeflyers at my DZ is fairly limited (its hard to learn to freefly from 10k with your buddies who are also learning), and most of the people with experience are busy doing tandems, working at their real jobs or whatever. This means that a lot of people have not gotten coached jumps before, don't really have video of them actually focusing on their skills and what not. To me, this seems to mean that each coached jump with a new person is a completely fresh start. So that I don't necessarily know where they are at. If I were jumping at a large DZ in California or Florida.. I probably wouldn't want to do coaching. I am still constantly learning new things but am very comfortable with my flying abilities. There are so many people at my DZ that want to really learn to freefly, and have someone to work on their headdown with that I feel like I kinda have to step up to the plate and give it a shot. Anyways, thanks for the input, any additional input would be much appreciated, and specific info would be very appreciated. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casquito 0 #10 July 21, 2005 Sorry.. what does FMC stand for? FMC= Freefly Mega Center Freefly school that the Alchemy guys (Mike Swanson, Jon Devore and Rook Nelson) run. John Chisolm has been doing alot of coaching with them recently. And LO? LO= Load Organizer Perris has 1-2 LOs for FF or RW each day to help put together jumps for those who don't have others to jump with for whatever reason; visiting, new to the sport, too shy to ask, etc. Good ones will plan jumps that are within the skills of everyone on it yet are challenging. The head up and head down LO jumps referred to are probably the checkout jumps potential LOs have to pass before being allowed to become one. The sequences are as follows: Sit: Exit rear facing front float Right hand dock Right 360 Front flip Right cartwheel Left hand dock Left 360 Backflip Left cartwheel Right hand dock Back up 20 feet Forward 20 feet Right hand dock All moves on heading and in frame on video Head down is pretty much the same with the exception of double front docks at the end. Doesn't sound like John to talk smack per se much, but I would expect someone who charges for coaching to be able to do the above. My opinion: Put the student's progression first. Too many coaches just video jumps with little briefing before or after and think they've earned your cash. Take as long as it takes to understand where the student is coming from and what their goals are and teach them accordingly. Have an lesson plan that goes beyond the jump you're doing now. You might pick up a book on teaching in general - the same principles apply in the classroom or on the DZ. John is a good coach. Emphasizes quality over quantity and won't manifest until you say you're good and done with ground training and ready for the air. He'd rather do 3 jumps a day and get you to learn than do 8 and make money while wasting your time. A good role model for people thinking about coaching if you ever visit Perris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #11 July 21, 2005 Coaching with Eli Thompson was one of the most rewarding coaching experiences ever, in fact my head's still reeling with the knowledge that he imparted on me. Apart from the actual freefly skills and knowledge he passed on, what made it so awesome was how he wasn't just coaching me on freefly, he was coaching me on the whole skydive from the moment we kitted up to the moment we stepped off the LZ. He'd be giving me hints and tips in the plane, stuff like me not having done my legstraps up when we boarded the Otter (the luxury of jumping big planes i guess) he was like: "dude, what are you gonna do if there's an emergency and we have to get out at 5 grand?" Also when we landed there was more, little things that i wasn't even thinking about like stepping over my canopy and facing incoming traffic so you don't get hit from behind unexpetedly. That really made it for me. He was obviously on the ground long before i was and he'd be packed and ready to debried when i was, we moved at my pace which was way cool. He took time in the briefs and debriefs to explain and explain again if i needed it. He really set a precedent for me and I hope i can be as a good a oach one day. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FFlyer 0 #12 July 21, 2005 I agree with what's been said above, especially when it comes to flying skill. I dont think that just because someone has a lot of jumps and has a camera, they should become a coach. I think you first need the flying skills and the right type of personallity to be a coach. And another thing which is not critical but still important to me is that I prefer jumping with coaches who are actually having as much fun as I am. Its great to land from a jump and both you and the coach are smiling and cant stop talking about how cool the jump was (even if it didnt go all to plan). Plus, I always seem to fly better if the people on my jump are smiling and having fun instead of making me feel like my flying skills arent good enough. Just my 2c Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #13 July 21, 2005 QuoteDoesn't sound like John to talk smack per se much, but I would expect someone who charges for coaching to be able to do the above. I wasn't implying that he "talks smack" on any particular individual...because no, he's not like that at all. But he's expressed to me his displeasure with someone with so-so flying skills coaching. I know for a fact he feels any freefly coach should be able to pass both the head up and head down checkout jumps. He also has expressed his displeasure with coaches who are in it solely for the cash. John is a coach for one reason - skydiving has given him a lot and he wants to share that with others. Karenmeal, I guess you should add that to your list of what being a good coach requires as well.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #14 July 22, 2005 [Someone with a happy, fun personality, not someone with the sort of attitute that is "above" you because you are just starting out and they are a lord of the sky, or whatever. Someone who makes it fun, as well as improving your learning and teaching you/quote] Totally agree with these statement I had paid up to $35 without the slot to skygods for coaching just to get the I'm better than you crap. I have found that those good coaches sometimes Load organizer or friends are willing to share their knowledge for free they give you things to work on what they saw jumping with you sort of like opening you mind to things you have not thought thru. I still pay for coaching is an excellent way to learned, tunnel time with a good coach is priceless, the only advice witch it was mentiond before, stay away from big egos.http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #15 July 23, 2005 not that i am a coach or super experienced. i have noticed many talking about 'sit flying' and sitting in a chair to correct a position etc. the best thing i have ever been told is that sitting is 'incorrect' so sitting in a chair won't really help. 'head up' flying is the more correct term and to correct poor position it is best to stand with your back against a wall with your heels against the wall at a neutral width. sitting in a chair only creates bad habits (such as having your arms back to counter the added drag of having your thighs exposed to the relative wind)that will have to be weened out later. feet should be below your bum and shoulders. sit flying is what they used to do before head up flying was perfected just my two cents"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #16 July 23, 2005 Well what d'ya know, I had someone with their back against a big huge beam we have at the dz last night practicing turns, going forward and backward, sidesliding and fall rate! I never use the chair. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #17 July 23, 2005 Gotta agree with all the above! I didn't do formal coaching with Eli but he was load organising our groups. His debriefs were thorough, chilled and effective. I learnt a hell of a lot that week - though i'm sure the actual coaching would be even better! I suppose he did the key things right - relaxed, fun and concentrating on a few 'main' points at a time. Being stressed and 'over-informationed' isn't the way to learn anything! --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #18 July 25, 2005 QuoteWell what d'ya know, I had someone with their back against a big huge beam we have at the dz last night practicing turns, going forward and backward, sidesliding and fall rate! I never use the chair. -Karen Beyond having both the flying skill and knowing how to convey it to another person properly... To me good coaching is all about being able to make a connection with the person you are trying to teach / learn from. They need to be comfortable with you and you need to have some assurance in your mind that they are paying attention to what you are saying. Having the right attitude as a coach / teacher makes your student more able to accept what your telling / showing them. I don't mean you have to be their best friend but there needs to be some personability or you can say everything you want 10 times over and all the person will be thinking about is how they feel uncomfortable about what your doing. edit to add, If at any point a person gets a feeling like you as the coach is being put out to, or doesn't want to, make a jump they will not be in the right mind set at all and anything they do and the things you will be trying to teach them will be wasted. The person won't be relaxed and all they will be thinking about is getting it right. Thats ok, i guess, but it takes so much away from just being relaxed and actually getting it right. If you stress over it then you lose out. I know I have gone up with people wanting to nail it and totally sucking compared to what I am normally doing just because I got nervous. Thats my $.02. I have had the pleasure to jump with some really awesome freeflyers and it's all about thier attitude that makes the jump good.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
