davelepka 4 #1 September 17, 2009 Of course this is the classic question many new skydivers ask with regards to shooting video. They go on to suggest that this camera or that helmet have almost no risk for snags, so what could it hurt? The reply is always the same about the camera being a distraction to the jumper and those around him, and if you don't know how to handle it, bad things can happen. I had forgotten about this until it popped up in another thread, but now I present to you, a bad thing happening - This was 12+ years ago when mini-DV was brand new, and sidemount cameras had not been released. As such, there were literally 1/10 the number of cameras on the DZ because not many folks were keen to jump the big stuff. Guy 'A' and guy 'B' are expereinced freeflyers with at least 500 jumps each, and many, many jumps together. Guy 'A' mans up and buys a camera helmet, and I present you guy 'A's first camera jump, where he did a two-way with guy 'B', alot like the many two ways they had done before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoer1LmWTL4&fmt=18 Long story short, guy 'B' was stoked to be on video, and guy 'A' was stoked to be shooting video. Both forgot about break off, tracking, or pulling. Both well over 200 jumps, both got sucked right into the camera, and almost didn't get out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #2 September 17, 2009 Worthy of being a sticky for a while til I can link it in the FAQ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #3 September 17, 2009 I think I've seen that video before, but didn't know all that background info. Scary stuff. I sprained my ankle landing off on my first camera jump (SOLO in a wingsuit) because I wanting to film a puffy cloud too far from the LZ. Stupid.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #4 January 11, 2010 Just a bump back up to the top of the page. I actually looked up the thread so I could link to it in another post I'm wirting, but figured I'd give it a bump while I was here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #5 January 11, 2010 thread title could very easily be...... " why 200 jumps....... are WAY too FEW!!!!! " quite the exciting footage. thanks for showing us how close.. "TOO close" IS.... I'd press for 500.....minimum,,,, before adding ANY camera.....but "what do i Know???"... jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #6 January 11, 2010 Meanwhile, in another thread, a guy with 25 jumps and a guy with 40 jumps have their own ideas. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3773506;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #7 January 12, 2010 If they'd read the sticky, your "why 200 jumps" is linked in there, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vincearnone 0 #8 January 12, 2010 The thing that confuses me about this video is why the guy with the camera sees his friend open then looks at the ground that close and goes for his mainIndoor Skydiving Source - The Leading Indoor Skydiving Resource Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmless 0 #9 January 12, 2010 Muscle memory?"Damn you Gravity, you win again" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 January 12, 2010 QuoteMuscle memory? AKA Panic reaction.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vincearnone 0 #11 January 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteMuscle memory? AKA Panic reaction. That makes sense. I wonder if he waved off too? That low my only panic reaction is a quick shit in my pants and my reserve handle.Indoor Skydiving Source - The Leading Indoor Skydiving Resource Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 January 12, 2010 QuoteThe thing that confuses me about this video is why the guy with the camera sees his friend open then looks at the ground that close and goes for his main Just to be clear, what he saw his his friend's Cypres fire. I'm guessing he went for his main because that's how he ended every skydive up to that point. It's half muscle memory, and half trying to survive. What do you think you're better at, throwing your PC, or pulling your reserve ripcord? Different hands, different locations, 100's of successful PC throws vs. far fewer (if any) ripcord pulls. How many times have you drilled your EPs? 100's? 5 times before every jump? Multiplied by your 300 jumps is 1500 times. Of those 1500, how many were drills for going straight to reserve? From freefall straight to silver, have you ever drilled that one? My guess is that most people haven't and if you revert to your training, and go through your full EPs, you would be too late. If you take the time to think that the first half of your EPs is not needed, then proceed to just do the last half (pull silver) you'd be too late. If the guy had hesitated for a second, and had no Cypres, this would have been a fatality. The real solution is to pay attention to your situation. Check your altitude, it's not that hard and pretty damn important. In terms of your EPs, and the thoughts I outlined above, stick with what you've been taught. Put your efforts into keeping youself from getting your back up against the wall like this guy did, and you won't have to worry about these 'what if's'. Two other points - notice the delay between one Cypres fire and the other. Freeflying and other body postions have been linked to odd Cypres behavoir, and this video is proof. The other jumper was open several hundred feet hgher than the camera guy. 750ft. is just a number in a book, the reality of a Cypres fire is another story. Finally, make sure you notice the landing, and how close he came to getting a vasectomy from the bird house in the backyard he landed in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.B 0 #13 January 12, 2010 Always when I see this clip I'm wondering something about the first guy (who was being filmed) - did he end up without any injuries? (reserve opening while fast falling in head down must have hurt like a bi@#$! ) cheers, Bart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #14 January 12, 2010 "from the bird house in the back yard he landed in" more like... " in the back yard he CRASHED into..." very very fortunate to be able to utter anything,,,,after THAT fiasco... Hopefully his Attitude about the 'NON obtrusive' "just switch it on and forget about it " video camera, has been changed... jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmless 0 #15 January 12, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Muscle memory? AKA Panic reaction. That makes sense. I wonder if he waved off too? That low my only panic reaction is a quick shit in my pants and my reserve handle. That's a bold statement (no pun intended ) Your logic would be to go straight to reserve, but your reaction would most likely prove you wrong..."Damn you Gravity, you win again" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #16 January 12, 2010 QuoteThat low my only panic reaction ... my reserve handle.ever been down there ? maybe that's what you think, maybe not what your body will doscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #17 January 12, 2010 I don't have that many jumps. I've only been jumping camera for about 4-5 years. I'm very aware that jumping camera takes effort! In fact, I can remember several instances where those jumping with me lost altitude awareness or suffered lapses in concentration just because there was a little red camera light shining. At break off, I've seen people spend "extra time" geeking the camera or tracking in front of me to be sure I captured their opening. Humans are animals filled with stupid! Cameras magnify that stupidity?? Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #18 January 12, 2010 Quote Humans are animals filled with stupid! Cameras magnify that stupidity?? That's almost worthy of being a sig line. Sad thing is, often the magnified "stupid" is the ignoramus that thinks he's gonna strap on a camera at 50 jumps "just to shoot my skydive." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #19 January 19, 2010 Quote Meanwhile, in another thread, a guy with 25 jumps and a guy with 40 jumps have their own questions they ask and wait for flaming responses from skygods . http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread I fixed it for you. I am the guy with 25 jumps. I was wondering if there were any reasons other than distraction for the 200 jump limit. There were none. I was interested in using a camera solely as a flight recorder on solo jumps. Based on responses in the forum I have decided to wait until at least 200 jumps. In fact, any piece of equipment can be a distraction if you let it. I agree that a camera is more likely to be a distraction than an altimeter, and I realize better and more experienced skydivers than I have gotten in trouble with cameras. Then again, better and more experienced skydivers than I have gotten in trouble focusing on their altimeters. Truth be told, there is no single USPA licensed skydiver less experienced than I am. I will try to limit my opinions based on my lack of experience, but will continune to ask questions. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocityphoto 0 #20 January 20, 2010 Smart man! If we could only get everyone to be as well disciplined as you. I put a camera on around 350 jumps or so and it was still scary to me. You live longer too! :) A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #21 January 20, 2010 QuoteMeanwhile, in another thread, a guy with 25 jumps and a guy with 40 jumps have their own questions they ask and wait for flaming responses from skygods . http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread I fixed it for you No sir, I had it right the first time. You were politely refered to the sticky at the top of this forum, yet you continued to post your, "I know they say this, BUT, I think it would be good for this, that, and the other thing". Only then was the error of your ways directly pointed out. What's really interesting, is in one of your posts, you list the reasons a pair of video goggles would be good for you, and then go on to explain that the DZ you jump at strictly adheres to the USPA 200 jump minimum for video jumps. Wouldn't you guess that whatever flimsy notions you have about the usefulness of a video camera are far outweighed by the negatives of introducing a camera if the DZ forbids it? They seem to know enough to teach you how to skydive, but you continue to insist that a camera would have usefulness to you even though the DZ management figures otherwise. QuoteThen again, better and more experienced skydivers than I have gotten in trouble focusing on their altimeters. No, they haven't, and it's a piss poor excuse for trying to minimize the risk of a camera. Getting 'lost' in your altimeter is something that is trained out of you in AFF. You will never pass all of your levels if you 'lock on' to your altimeter, and never look up. Many better and more expereinced jumpers than you have gotten into trouble by NOT looking at their altimeters, and 99 times out of 100, it's due to the distraction of an outside factor JUST LIKE A CAMERA. QuoteI will try to limit my opinions based on my lack of experience, but will continune to ask questions. Don't limit your opinions based on your lack of experience, try to formulate your opinions based on the experience of others. In terms of this topic, and other fairly universal bits of skydiving 'common knowledge', stick with what the majority are doing. 200 jumps for a camera, 200 jumps for a wingsuit with an instructor (500 without), 500 jumps to video a tandem; these are all 'norms' that have been established through the experiences of jumpers that came before, both good and bad. These aren't the areas to be asserting your indiviuality, these are areas in which to assert your intelligence and have some respect for the 'standards'. If Jimbo the load organizers prefers full face helmets, and Timbo the AFF instructor prefers open face helmets, talk to the both of them, and then go ahead and jump both types and see what work best for you. This is an area to assert your individuality and personal preferences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #22 January 20, 2010 Have a look at what just popped up in another thread - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3780770;#3780770 This is a perfect example of a camera distracting the skydiver. The jumper never made an attempt to look for the jumper missing from their group, and then allowed himself to go into the bottom end of the skydive 'blind' in that he never took his eyes off of his buddy tracking away. This jumper wasn't intending to act as a camera flyer, he was just intending to record his view of the skydive. He did float the exit, and then fly no-contact shooting the jump, he was a member of the skydive who was just wearing a camera. But in this case, one member of the skydive went low, the 'camera guy' never took his gaze off of the other jumpers, even after the break off, and of all the dumb luck the low man didn't track. It's a far fetched situation, but there it is on Youtube for all to see. The camera can be a sneaky and devious distraction, and it will suck you in 100 different ways on every jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrwrong 0 #23 January 20, 2010 Quote Have a look at what just popped up in another thread - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3780770;#3780770 This is a perfect example of a camera distracting the skydiver. The jumper never made an attempt to look for the jumper missing from their group, and then allowed himself to go into the bottom end of the skydive 'blind' in that he never took his eyes off of his buddy tracking away. This jumper wasn't intending to act as a camera flyer, he was just intending to record his view of the skydive. He did float the exit, and then fly no-contact shooting the jump, he was a member of the skydive who was just wearing a camera. But in this case, one member of the skydive went low, the 'camera guy' never took his gaze off of the other jumpers, even after the break off, and of all the dumb luck the low man didn't track. It's a far fetched situation, but there it is on Youtube for all to see. The camera can be a sneaky and devious distraction, and it will suck you in 100 different ways on every jump. Amen to that!!! And to add one of my own thoughts. One thing that recently struck me was the fact that adding a cam to the dive is like starting to ride a motorcycle when you are an experienced car driver. A whole new world of aspects that you haven’t even considered opens up. Sure it’s a lot of fun and sure you’ll get very popular to jump with but as written here over and over again, there IS a reason for a minimum jump number criteria so FFS don’t compromise your and others safety by trying to be “that cool duuuude”!! Just my 2¢“The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.” - George Bernard Shaw He who dies with the most toys, wins..... dudeist skydiver # 19515 Buy quality and cry once! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #24 January 20, 2010 I forgot to mention, in the thread where the guy fell through a canopy, the posters profile indicated he had 450 jumps. I'm not sure how accurate that is, or how many jumps he had at the time of the incident, but it stands to reason that it was more than 200, possibly even twice that number. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #25 January 20, 2010 Quotethen go on to explain that the DZ you jump at strictly adheres to the USPA 200 jump I was PM'd by one of the DZ instructors after my original post, and I did change my mind based on the DZ's policy, so we are on the same page there. QuoteDon't limit your opinions based on your lack of experience, try to formulate your opinions based on the experience of others. That is exactly what I am doing. I meant that I wasn't going to throw my opinion out there since opinions about skydiving without personal experience are worthless and possible dangerous. I hope my posts haven't come across as being argumentative and I apologize for the 'flaming' comment. It was a knee jerk reaction from being lumped into an ignoramous group by a moderator. Your posts are clearly to help me as a new skydiver prevent injuring or killing myself. I'm OK with that. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
