Yoshi 0 #1 March 19, 2003 ok, now that I have this in the correct thread I want to get some opinions. I am thinking about making a canopy this year.. or at least getting the design for one ... my questions would be.. where to get zp material...what size I should start with...if there would be copyright issues making one that has incorporated designs such as the plane form of one canopy...line placement...airlocks...crossbracing.. etc.. btw I wouldnt land the thing..I would put it in a tirsh (sp?) rig until I had several jumps at alti to determine if it was a) controlable...landable etc... opinions open and welcome! -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #2 March 19, 2003 perhaps you should get in touch with the guy from the talkback thread in China (I think).... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #3 March 19, 2003 DID HE MAKE ONE? -YOSHI_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 March 19, 2003 Hee! Hee! 'Welcome to the world of one bobbin of E thread per seam. You will be amazed a t how quickly you go through bobbins when you start sewing canopies. I sure hope that you already know how to sew. You might find it easier to start out with smaller projects like pilotchutes. Back in the late 1980s I sewed up a couple of F-111 canopies from kits that I bought from a company in Texas named Lone Star. I put 200 jumps on one canopy and 300 jumps on the other before they fell out of fashion. Lone Starr's greatest contribution was a truly brilliant text book on how to sew canopies. The textbook included excellent line drawings and four audio tapes to assist in learning to sew "by ear." Good luck in finding someone who will loan you a copy of Lone Star's textbook. Lone Star went out of business after they discovered that their giant silk screen didn't work and they were loosing money marking canopies by hand. That hot-cutting by hand is also am un-economical process. Sources for ZP fabric are listed on the Parachute Industry Association website (www.PIA.com). Para Stock, Performance Textiles, etc will all sell you ZP fabric, but my favorite is the ZP fabric woven by Gelvenor Textile Mill sin South Africa because their fabric is not as shiny and therefor easier to handle. As for designing canopies .... that is a huge topic with a lot of subtle variations. My advice would be to acquire a dozen trim charts and measure a dozen canopies similar to what you want to build. Read over everything you can find written by John LeBlanc, Brian Germaine and what's-his-name-Sobieski-from-Australia. Keep it simple for your first canopy. Start by sketching a simple, medium-sized rectangular canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #5 March 19, 2003 HEY THANKS... i DO KNOW HOW TO SEW...I have made jumpsuits camera wings freefly tubes..etc.. but now I am thinking how fun would it be to make a canopy... thanks for the tips! -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #6 March 19, 2003 You can find ZP marketed as Sil-nylon or Silon in some markets. The camping/backpacking market is really getting into using ZP as material for rain tarps and storage bags due to it being able to be waterproofed so easly. As for the sewing, work with a rigger to learn what the difference between an airworthy seam and an non airworth seam is. Getting a canopy of the PPM's is a really good start too. The book on parachute design is alright, it mainly focus on rounds though. Best thing to do is find something like an old trashed canopy and replace cell by cell and see how its put together and how the seams are joined. Also order lots and lots of E thread Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #7 March 19, 2003 Quoteif there would be copyright issues making one that has incorporated designs such as the plane form of one canopy I wouldn't worry about copyrights and patents, as long as you are making parachutes for your own personal education and use. When I was making parachutes, I told Para-Flite I needed the poker chips they were using for slider stops, and they obliged by selling me several sets. And after make a couple line sets, I called Django (predecessor of Glidepath and Flight Concepts), told them I was making copies of their parachutes, and would they please sell me a line set or two? No problem there, either. QuoteI wouldnt land the thing..I would put it in a tirsh (sp?) rig until I had several jumps at alti to determine if it was a) controlable...landable etc... Determining if your parachute will fly straight and turn okay -- that's easy. Figuring out if it is landable -- that's hard, because it's difficult to judge descent rate when you're at decision altitude. What's your plan? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #8 March 19, 2003 I havnt gotten that in depth yet.. I think the first 10-15 jumps on it wold be to see its contal range (flying streight turning right and left on toggles rears and front risers, flaring etc) then I think flying next to other canopies would follow...(proximity not crw) to see how the flare compares at alti... I think that the first one I make will prob be around 135+ sq ft....so I am not pushing my limits on the size and wing loading... also I think that as far as lines I will prob buy a prefab line set instead of trying to make my own...and take a plan form from an existing manufactured canopy to determine where they should attach etc.. as far as the plane form and line set I will most likely use both from an existing canopy and maybe throw some new factors in such as airlocks or new nose shaping crossports winglets trailing edge shape...etc.. -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #9 March 19, 2003 ok so I am sitting at work and though if this.. what about a non-tri cell semi cross-braced canopy??? any thoughts? -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 March 19, 2003 I just did some quick math and by my figures the amount of ZP needed to make a 135 foot canopy is about 80 yards with no mistakes and piecing ribs together out of scraps. Realistically you'll need 100-125 yards of ZP and a roll of reenforecemnt tape. Cheapest I've been able to get ZP is $8 per yard. Then its an ugly tealish color. (Grape Ape Jedei anyone? ) If you want to land it I'd do something WAY larger like a 190 if your introducing new concepts that are untried. Line sets are made for a specific size and planform. You can't just put a Stiletto 135 line set on anything sized 135 and hope it works. The line set is part of the whole design. And whats a non-tri cell semi- crossbraced? Putting normal crossbraces in a canopy makes it get its cells cut into 3 parts therefore tricell One other question.... how are you going to get consistant seam tension? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #11 March 19, 2003 non tri cell meaning a traditional nine cell planeform like a crossfire or something with crossbraces...yeah it would divide it up but when looking at a vx for example there are clearly 3 portions that make up one cell...so rather than being a 27 cell it would be a nine with the braces supporting the load bearing ribs???.. and about the line set... I would most likely use the same plane form to match the line set..(if I use a crossfire plane form I would use a crossfire line set, but maybe modify the internal structure of the canopy... constant seam tention... good question.. ill have to get back to you on that when I figure out how I am going to make it:) -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #12 March 19, 2003 Quoteplaneform like a crossfire The gear review says the Crossfire is an elliptical canopy. This means that nearly every piece is different, so you'll need quite a few templates. For top and bottom surfaces, the templates are straightforward, but creating rib templates will be a challenge. You might be better off trying a traditional rectangular canopy, to keep the construction simpler. Quoteabout the line set If you are doing a straight copy of an existing canopy, by all means use a factory line set. You don't have to sew down the finger traps (though you might tack them if you want), so experimenting with trim is easy. If you are working on your own design, consider non-cascaded lines, which allow more accurate trim. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #13 March 19, 2003 Quoteok, now that I have this in the correct thread I want to get some opinions. I am thinking about making a canopy this year.. or at least getting the design for one ... my questions would be.. where to get zp material...what size I should start with...if there would be copyright issues making one that has incorporated designs such as the plane form of one canopy...line placement...airlocks...crossbracing.. etc.. btw I wouldnt land the thing..I would put it in a tirsh (sp?) rig until I had several jumps at alti to determine if it was a) controlable...landable etc... opinions open and welcome! -yoshi Having built and jumped several canopies over the years my suggestion to you is back engineer an old 7 cell f111 bigger canopy. This will give you several advantageous things. It will give you seam construction detail (there are several) , it will show you the best sequence in which to build (which and how many sub assemblies you will need),a greater understanding of the enormity of the task at hand, how much room you will need, how much time you have to devote to the project, a great supply of template material to make your patterns from, line trim specs and a proven design that is relatively simple to construct and jump. If you can accomplish this at least once (preferably more than once) you should be ready to start on a more ambitious project such as the one you describe. old strato clouds, units, raiders, ravens etc should be relatively cheap to acquire. This is the best way to learn just how much work and patience it takes. It takes even more work for a harness/ container. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #14 March 19, 2003 I am not sure yet if I want to make a "square"... I think that regardless if the pattern is stictly taken from an existing canopy with alterations to the nose tail and interior it will be much easier.. I think one of my first steps will be to contact manufacturers to see if they will give me some measurements to go by.. as far as an eliptical I think that (from a pattern standpoint) as long as I cut the peices correctly, sew a streight line, and sew them in the right order it wont be much more of an issue from a square.... but then again I havnt done it before so I could be completely wrong.. -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #15 March 19, 2003 luckily, if I even decide to go on with this enormous project, I have several master and senior riggers to help me with it.. my dz (richmond) is pretty close knit and I am sure that it will turn into more of a group project than a personal one.. I just dont want to take the thing out for the first time and it blow up, be completely uncontrolable, or non flyable in any conventional manner...but I am expecting it will most likely be a costly way to occupy my boredom with little gratification in the end (other than being able to say I built a canopy once...even if it blew up) ahh well:) -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #16 March 19, 2003 I've been there. I made about 40 canpies. Starting with pure copies, and then got more and more custom. Buy me a Dr. Pepper some time and I'll tell you about my famous "Stealth" canopy. I strongly recommend that your first canopy be a nothing real fancy (i.e. no airlocks, no cross bracing), and even avoid semi-eliptical. Stick with a rectangle. If you can't make a good rectangular canopy you will do much worse when it gets trickier. Do you have a double-needle machine? I wouldn't want to do it without a double needle. You need to do some single needle work too, both straight stitch and zigzag. You don't really tell us what your sewing skill level is, but if you aren't already comfortable sewing you should build a jumpsuit or ten first. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #17 March 19, 2003 QuoteI wouldn't want to do it without a double needle. There are still major manufacturers who make their canopies using two passes of a single-needle machine, and that's what I'd recommend for starters: much easier to get the thread tensions right, much easier to deal with bobbins running out of thread. You'll prefer a commercial machine, if only for the space under the arm. Lots of fabric is going to get pushed through there. A common household machine is adequate for zigzag on fingertraps, but you may need to custom order needles large enough for E-thread. And there are work-arounds for the bartacks you might want on the canopy at the line attachment points and at the leading edge where the pieces join together. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #18 March 20, 2003 Quote There are still major manufacturers who make their canopies using two passes of a single-needle machine, and that's what I'd recommend for starters: much easier to get the thread tensions right, much easier to deal with bobbins running out of thread. Mark Really!? I'm astonished (and oubiously out of touch). I can't imagine why getting the tensions right would be easier in two passes than one, let alone other issues. But hey, it's been a long time since I built a canopy. A side note -- when I had my set up, and after I was comfortable with all the construction details I could make a canopy from scratch in one day, from fabric and suspension line on rolls, to a canopy ready to pack and jump. My first one took a couple of weeks though. It is a major rush jumping your first self-built canopy though. I still remember it clearly -- cold, low clouds, scary -- but it all worked out. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #19 March 20, 2003 did you land your first canopy..?? on what jump?? -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #20 March 20, 2003 so, kevin, you going to do like a little drop test, to see how it opens. i mean, with slider size, who knows how hard it may open. or u may put too big of a slider on and have it take 2000 feet to open. i know where we can get a dummy to go test it.............it will just be a month or 2 befor vern gets back later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #21 March 20, 2003 yeah...Ill make it like 50 sq ft and have vern jump it... Ill tell him Ill pay him but only if he lands it:):):) Ill prob do quite a handfull of full alti hop and pops before even thinking of landing it or much less doing a full terminal opening -yoshi btw.. are you going to help me with this project if I decide to go on??? I think dad steve would be a great person to consult about it also_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #22 March 21, 2003 Quotedid you land your first canopy..?? on what jump?? -yoshi Yes I did. Remember, I advised you to copy an existing canopy, so unless it blows up or, or has a BAD turn, or something similar there isn't any reason to be that afraid of it. Open high enough to put it through its paces, practice flaring, etc. I'm not at home, so I can't look through my logbooks, but I'd guess that I had about 700 jumps at the time. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #23 March 21, 2003 you either have alot more faith in your construction or alot more bals than I do.. I dont think even if I copied a fury or something similar that I would land it on the first jump... just my 2 cents:) -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #24 March 21, 2003 oh hell kevin, when u get that damn thing built, i'll go jump it, and if i feel like i can half way land it will will GROW SOME damnit. but seriouly i will later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #25 March 21, 2003 THATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND ME... YOU STILL HAVENT GROWN THAT FEAR THING YET:):) i THINK i AM GOING TO COME OUT TONIGHT AND STAY THE WHOLE WEEKEND... IF NOT I WILL BE THERE TOMARROW MORNING AND STAY SAT NIGHT... SEE YOU THERE! -YOSHI_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
