kallend 1,635 #1 May 27, 2003 Since packages like Premiere allow you to speed up the video and dump it back to the camera, how is "performance enhancement" prevented in events where the vidiot is a team member?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 May 27, 2003 I suppose some day someone is going to try it, but there are two factors that prevent it from happening; honesty (which is sometimes dubious) and the fact that you still run out of altitude at a certain point. So, even though a top team might be able to squeek one extra point out of it, it's never going to give a 10 point team 20 points because if a 10 point team exits at 10,500, there's just no way for them to turn 20 points before they impact the Earth. On the other hand, a 10-way team probably -could- get away with it. Then again, I have it on good authority that no 10-way team has -ever- cheated. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #3 May 27, 2003 Could it be done, sure, but would you have time to do it? It takes time to re-render the footage... comp video is due upon landing... drop your rig and go to the dubbing station... even with faster laptops, you would be running suspiciously late. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #4 May 27, 2003 Quote I suppose some day someone is going to try it, but there are two factors that prevent it from happening; honesty (which is sometimes dubious) and the fact that you still run out of altitude at a certain point. So, even though a top team might be able to squeek one extra point out of it, it's never going to give a 10 point team 20 points because if a 10 point team exits at 10,500, there's just no way for them to turn 20 points before they impact the Earth. On the other hand, a 10-way team probably -could- get away with it. Then again, I have it on good authority that no 10-way team has -ever- cheated. There's no sponsorships to be had in 10-way, so where's the motivation?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #5 May 27, 2003 QuoteCould it be done, sure, but would you have time to do it? It takes time to re-render the footage... comp video is due upon landing... drop your rig and go to the dubbing station... even with faster laptops, you would be running suspiciously late. Josh 2.5 GHz laptops today, 4GHz next year?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #6 May 27, 2003 Untrue! I know of at least one 10-way captain that had all of his jumps comped by the dz. So, there is at least some motivation to perform.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #7 May 27, 2003 Still takes time... not to mention a place to do it where no one notices you playing with your camera and a laptop in the middle of a comp. It might only take 5 minutes, but thats 5 minutes that no one can notice what your doing. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #8 May 27, 2003 You didn't happen to stand in the hour long 4-way dubbing line at the SDC Nationals last year did you? quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #9 May 27, 2003 No, my last nationals experience was '01 @ Eloy... I don't think I waited more than 5 min... Never had long waits at local meets either. If the line was 4-hours long, then the dishonest type could find a hole to do 5 minutes worth of voodoo. Josh (edit for spelling)All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #10 May 27, 2003 Actually, it was only f'ed up for the first three rounds -- round one was the worst and was easily an hour wait. They simply didn't have their act together in attempting to do the "live" judging while dubbing thing that had worked so well the year before at Eloy. By round three they had abandoned the idea completely and were back to judging completely from VHS dubs. However, due to the serious lack of judging talent, they were still far, far behind and barely finished judging the first days 7 rounds by the start of the second day. It was a fiasco that I hope Lake Wales doesn't repeat.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #11 May 27, 2003 QuoteHowever, due to the serious lack of judging talent, they were still far, far behind and barely finished judging the first days 7 rounds by the start of the second day. Actually, they called it quits the first night -before- finishing the judging for all the team's 7th rounds. They came in the next morning, and while we were up in the air with round 8, they were finishing round 7's judgefest. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #12 May 27, 2003 In either case, it was seriously silly. There was no good reason whatsoever (other than maybe some dzo bragging rights) to "push" the competitors into a 7th round on the first day when the judging couldn't keep up.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #13 May 27, 2003 QuoteIn either case, it was seriously silly. There was no good reason whatsoever (other than maybe some dzo bragging rights) to "push" the competitors into a 7th round on the first day when the judging couldn't keep up. Absolutely correct. It'll be -very- interesting to read Omniskore from Lake Wales on what they've learned from previous nationals gone by. The only thing they can't control down there is the weather. I still think we were -mighty- lucky with Nats 2002 being so clear and beautiful. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #14 May 27, 2003 Quote I still think we were -mighty- lucky with Nats 2002 being so clear and beautiful. I thought that part of the bid process was to include weather reports from the previous five years during the time Nationals would be scheduled? I doubt the USPA would have allowed it to happen if the odds were not in favor of good weather. This year should be interesting due to the increased amount of hurricane activity that is supposed to hit this fall. Wish I could make it down there - Lake Wales is a great DZ, I'm sure they will do a good job on it. I asked about the performance issue on video to a few vidiots during nationals and all of them agreed it would take too much time and may even be noticable (someone mumbled something about NTSC and PAL during this talk as well - wish I heard what he said). Which leads me to ask - if the video is suspect, is there a way to test it?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #15 May 28, 2003 QuoteI thought that part of the bid process was to include weather reports from the previous five years during the time Nationals would be scheduled? I doubt the USPA would have allowed it to happen if the odds were not in favor of good weather. EVERY venue has the possibility of poor weather. Some venues have a high probability of poor weather. To my knowledge, this has never detered the USPA Nationals selection commitee from making a poor choice. Hint -- bring LOTS of stuff to do to while waiting for weather to clear at this years Nationals. QuoteThis year should be interesting due to the increased amount of hurricane activity that is supposed to hit this fall. Wish I could make it down there - Lake Wales is a great DZ, I'm sure they will do a good job on it. Glad you're paying attention -- unlike some folks. QuoteI asked about the performance issue on video to a few vidiots during nationals and all of them agreed it would take too much time and may even be noticable (someone mumbled something about NTSC and PAL during this talk as well - wish I heard what he said). Which leads me to ask - if the video is suspect, is there a way to test it? Absolutely! And it's up to the "Video Controller" to understand how to judge and deal with this as outlined in Section 1 of the SCM. See Section 1, page 6.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #16 May 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteI thought that part of the bid process was to include weather reports from the previous five years during the time Nationals would be scheduled? I doubt the USPA would have allowed it to happen if the odds were not in favor of good weather. EVERY venue has the possibility of poor weather. Some venues have a high probability of poor weather. To my knowledge, this has never detered the USPA Nationals selection commitee from making a poor choice. Hint -- bring LOTS of stuff to do to while waiting for weather to clear at this years Nationals. QuoteThis year should be interesting due to the increased amount of hurricane activity that is supposed to hit this fall. Wish I could make it down there - Lake Wales is a great DZ, I'm sure they will do a good job on it. Glad you're paying attention -- unlike some folks. QuoteI asked about the performance issue on video to a few vidiots during nationals and all of them agreed it would take too much time and may even be noticable (someone mumbled something about NTSC and PAL during this talk as well - wish I heard what he said). Which leads me to ask - if the video is suspect, is there a way to test it? Absolutely! And it's up to the "Video Controller" to understand how to judge and deal with this as outlined in Section 1 of the SCM. See Section 1, page 6. Well, I'm just learning Premiere and was messing with speed changing last night (which prompted the question). I sped up some RW and I reckon a 10% speed increase is not noticeable to the eye; this could amount to 1 - 2 points per round in 4-way depending on the level, easily a winning margin. Maybe there's some detectable fingerprint on the signal itself that would indicate tampering.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #17 May 28, 2003 QuoteUntrue! I know of at least one 10-way captain that had all of his jumps comped by the dz. So, there is at least some motivation to perform. At least one captain owns his DZ.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #18 May 28, 2003 We're not talking about the same team. Although, clearly there was a bit of motivation for Roger to win too!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #19 May 28, 2003 Check the sped up video on your camera for things like "data code". Does it still exist? I know when I try it in iMovie from a Mac it wipes it out. That's pretty much a dead giveaway.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #20 May 28, 2003 QuoteStill takes time... not to mention a place to do it where no one notices you playing with your camera and a laptop in the middle of a comp. It might only take 5 minutes, but thats 5 minutes that no one can notice what your doing. JoshIt's easy to run to the restroom with a backpack, or go on a smoke break, or something. 2 GHz laptop with 533 MHz FSB. Running Premiere 6.5, I ripped down raw swoop footage, edited it down to just the swoops (two minutes down to about 30 seconds), threw it back on the MiniDV in literally about four minutes, and drew no attention. It's very possible, and I'd say easy to get away with as a show off video. However, seeing how quickly those tapes are grabbed at meets, I doubt it could be pulled off in competition."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #21 May 28, 2003 QuoteQuote I still think we were -mighty- lucky with Nats 2002 being so clear and beautiful. I thought that part of the bid process was to include weather reports from the previous five years during the time Nationals would be scheduled? I doubt the USPA would have allowed it to happen if the odds were not in favor of good weather. True. However, the bidding rules do not specify -which- 5 years a DZ has to submit. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #22 May 28, 2003 "Maybe there's some detectable fingerprint on the signal itself that would indicate tampering." There is, but it would require the camera clocks to be synched to 'real time' and someone would have to log the teams, and their exit orders, etc. accurate to plus or minus a minute. All minidv cameras, in common usage, time code the footage with a date time etc, the same thing happens when the camera records rendered footage. The longer the time gap between the original recording and the doctored recording, the more obvious this time shifting would be to the trained eye. Far easier to have a proficient video controller/dub mechanism to prevent this. If one dubbing station is too slow, get two, three etc. Even with a laptop ready to rock, and running a real time set up (don't know if one exists yet for laptops), it would take a minimum of 2 minutes to hose in 1 minute of video, then playback to the cam the 50 seconds fiddled footage. Without a real time set up, the pooter time would probably be around the 3 minute mark at best. I'm guessing 5 minutes might be a possible/realistic turn round time. I'm also guessing if you were caught doing this, then all bets would be off, the cam flier and the team members would probably recieve some sort of ban. Would that risk be worth it for the teams that might benefit from a 10% enhancement to achieve a top slot? I'm guessing no.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #23 May 28, 2003 Quade you are correct. with 6.0 or 6.5 when you change the speed (slower or faster) of the video the data code goes away! Pendejo Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #24 May 28, 2003 Well, I just figured out a way to get around that issue too. Bottom line is that whoever the "Video Controller" is from this point forward, it should be a person that's a least a little savvy in how this might work.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #25 May 28, 2003 Quote Well, I just figured out a way to get around that issue too. Bottom line is that whoever the "Video Controller" is from this point forward, it should be a person that's a least a little savvy in how this might work. So, do we need to have security personnel escort the videoflyer from the landing area to the judges booth now? Seems like the easiest solution. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
