Unisyn 0 #1 February 27, 2003 Mirage Systems, like many other container manufacturer try to accommodate main canopy down sizing. Most jumper would like the ideal world of only purchasing one container EVER. This, however, is not possible. We have all seen the jumper with the container with the "soft" main pack job and loose closing loop. They are not only a danger to themselves, but everyone else on the load. Any feedback on this topic is appreciated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #2 February 27, 2003 The first container i bought was to hold a 170 max with the intention of being able to eventually downsize to a 150. I am jumping a 135 in that container now.(tightened closing loop, still fits nicely) I just ordered a new container that will fit my 135 max and plan to downsize once more to a 120 (eventually) or a 105 and then go crossbraced.(maybe) I believe my new container will be one that i hang onto for quite awhile. I don't know if i am in the majority or not, but i hope this gives you some info. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #3 February 27, 2003 I have never owned a container (in 22 years of skydiving) that I haven't put at least three different successive size mains in. I have squeezed one-size-larger mains in several of them that were designed for the next smaller size, then downsized twice with no problems whatsoever. Nowadays, I almost have to do so, seeing as how I am jump mains a full 30 square feet smaller than the smallest available container (that I would consider owning) was designed for (Javelin Odyssey RS). Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 February 27, 2003 I think some of this depends on your plans to downsize. For our young jumpers who are buying their first set of gear, and decide to go with a new container, we generally recommend starting with one size smaller container than what they need for their first canopy choice. (This assumes that they're brand new and will almost certainly be downsizing rather soon...for some reason, this doesn't seem to work well for women...I think they're just smarter than men when it comes to canopy size) The idea is this: New jumpers tend to change canopy sizes more rapidly than up-jumpers. Now, let's not turn this into a too-young-to-downsize debate.Since many jumpers will start with one canopy then move down within a season or so, going with a slightly smaller container to begin with means it will be of use to them for longer. They can start with one canopy, move to a "proper" sized canopy for the container, and then get at least one smaller size canopy in the container later on when they're ready. I just hate to see people buy gear and then have to sell the whole thing off at the end of the season and take a loss on it because they can't downsize within their current container set. FYI - Velocity Sports (Infinity) works very well with their dealers to make this happen for their customers. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #5 February 27, 2003 Quotewe generally recommend starting with one size smaller container than what they need for their first canopy choice. I disagree with that one. I recommend that people buy a container sized exactly for what they'll be putting in it. imho, combining learning to pack and packing new zp into a bag/container that is too small for it is a recipe for frustration. Frustrated new jumpers don't stay in the sport long. Using packers isn't always an option - I've had packers refuse to pack my rig because it's tight and my rig was sized for the main I have in it. Overstuffing a container puts strain on the closing flaps and grommets, and generally makes the container look like shit too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #6 February 27, 2003 Ok, I'll give on this one some, mostly because I didn't spell out some important points in my last post. Most of our new jumpers don't buy all new gear off that bat. In fact, we have a very large used gear program at our shop, so we almost always start them in used canopies (for obvious $$ reasons). However, since harness size is a big deal, and it's often hard to get a properly sized harness with a properly sized container set in used gear (without resizing the harness which = more $$), we do often have folks buying new containers but used canopies. I agree with you that the idea of overstuffing a container, even a little bit, with a brand new ZP canopy while still learning how to pack is bad news. I take issue with any professional packer who can't get a new canopy into a container only one size too small though. It's simply not that hard with good technique. Now, I've heard of packers charging more for brand new ZP canopies over 220 sq.ft. or so, which I also think is bull, but whatever. Obviously, learning to pack with minimal frustration increases the number of jumps that person is going to make, as well as their overall level of enjoyment...which is what we all want.Our method works VERY well here. Out here, used canopies lose about $1 per jump in market value, so if some one buys a used main and resells in a year later with 100 jumps on it, they're only down $100. A new canopy loses 25% of it's value as soon as it leaves the wrapper AND $1 per jump put on it, so buying used is really helpful for newbies. The same is basically true for H&Cs, but since you can get at least a couple of downsizes out of a container (if you plan properly) it's a much better investment to purchase a new container rather than new canopies when you're just starting out. Better? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #7 February 27, 2003 Quote Better? Much. Quote Most of our new jumpers don't buy all new gear off that bat. Most of my customers are buying all new gear, which helps explain why I recommend sizing the container for the main they'll be buying with it. Quote I take issue with any professional packer who can't get a new canopy into a container only one size too small though. It's simply not that hard with good technique. I agree. When I was packing for money I never refused to pack anyone's rig - $5 is $5 after all. Now I jump at Perris, where there are two "professional" packers who will not pack for me because my rig is too tight (the big complaint is that it takes too long to pack). And this is a container that was built for the canopy that is in it... Quote since you can get at least a couple of downsizes out of a container (if you plan properly) it's a much better investment to purchase a new container rather than new canopies when you're just starting out. Agree 100%! Although because many newer jumpers won't be standing up all their landings I recommend a used container if they can find something that fits both their body and their canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #8 February 27, 2003 I guess I have no understanding of pack volume. my first rig was built for a 135 main. my second rig has a bigger main pack volume even though I ordered it for a 120 main. since then, I downsized to a vengeance 107 that packs as big as a 120 spectre, and also used it for a velocity 103 and 96, which also pack as big as a sp. 120. so I guess I have done 4 downsizes. if you count that I have had a 135 in it, that would make 5 downsizes, and I keep a really tight closing loop with all sizes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Staso 0 #9 February 27, 2003 ha-ha, so far out of 29 votes i'm the only one who chose first option :) i'm happy with my wing load and i keep increasing it usizing myself in the gym :) stan. -- it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ... Speed Skydiving Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 February 27, 2003 > Now, I've heard of packers charging more for brand new ZP canopies over 220 sq.ft. or so, which I also think is bull, but whatever What I think is bull is people charging more money for canopies over 170ft like a few DZ's do. It terms of container sizing I expect to toss in at least my size and 1 smaller min, 2 smaller is an added bonus. Its really a great deal if I can toss in a large CRW canopy too and while it might not look good, I can at least keep it in the container for 3 seconds. The big one for me is the main/reserve sizing relationship. If in order for me to down size 2 main sizes a container wants me to upsize my reserve to help fill in the missing bulk I'm not liking it. Like wise I don't want to have to shrink my reserve to get a main to fit.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #11 February 27, 2003 Quote Although because many newer jumpers won't be standing up all their landings I recommend a used container if they can find something that fits both their body and their canopies. And this is a sensitive subject, to be sure. I often recommend to people looking to buy gear that they should stay on demo gear a bit longer first. Yes, it costs a little bit more upfront, but think of the heartbreak of turfing your new rig in and scuffing it up! We're a very customer oriented store. We take alot of time dealing with each individual jumper...sometimes more than the Boss would like! We'll never be the cheapest, because of our overhead, but we'll always strive to do right by our customers. And that's the reason we get some much repeat business. If you're trying to figure out colors and options for your new rig, talk to the folks in the yard...if you're trying to figure out sizing and long term planning for use and resale, talk to your local dealer/shop. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #12 February 27, 2003 Quote If in order for me to down size 2 main sizes a container wants me to upsize my reserve to help fill in the missing bulk I'm not liking it. Like wise I don't want to have to shrink my reserve to get a main to fit. Each container is sized on its own. Sure, they give or take room off each other depending on what you've got in them, but any compitant rigger will tell you that your reserve is going to fit or it's not...what main you put in there is only going to effect how the main tray closes...something I'm not terribly concerned with as a rigger...nor do I really have much control over. I've been doing this for a pretty long time now, and I feel confident that I can pack most things and make them look good...but what my customers do with their mains (ie - sloppy packjobs) in the field is something I can't control. So, our loft does the best we can to be middle of the road perfect... what happens after that is out of our hands, but resizing your reserve to make up for your main isn't something I/we would do or recommend. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #13 February 27, 2003 I chose the "3-sizes" option on the poll as that is what I intended to do when I bought my Mirage G3 M4. It was supposed to hold a 170 tightly and I am packing a Stiletto 190 in there easily. The problem is I have tried a Sabre 170 in my Mirage and the container is too big to hold the size it was designed for. As it is, with my 190, my closing loop is less than an inch in size and could actually stand to be a bit shorter. I never thought about it when the container was new but now that I've had it for over a year I know there is no way I can use it for the "3-sizes" approach and will have to probably sell it this year. If you decide to buy a container for the same purpose I did, check the sizing with the intended canopies when you first get it or you may be in for a surprise.Kris Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #14 February 27, 2003 Quote The problem is I have tried a Sabre 170 in my Mirage and the container is too big to hold the size it was designed for. As it is, with my 190, my closing loop is less than an inch in size and could actually stand to be a bit shorter. Something else to consider. Pretty much every manufacturer out there "recommends" a rig size that is about one size larger than what most sport jumpers would pick on their own. The reasoning behind this is that the Mfg. doesn't want to hear from everyone out there who can't get their canopy easily into their new container. NOT EVERY MANUFACTURER DOES THIS WITH THEIR SIZES, but several do.... Ask the Mfg. what size they recommend, but you might also speak with a rigger who knows his stuff and has been around for a while (ie - has packed enough of a given rig to know how they size up). We routinely order rigs from SunPath that are smaller than what they recommend size wise...otherwise, downsizing can be a real challenge. We've never had a problem of anyone complaining the rig was too small, but we have had a few complain that the rig was very soft and was bigger than what they wanted when we didn't size it. I'M NOT RECOMMENDING THIS FOR EVERYONE, but a really good rigger should know the "field sizes" for the rig...Manufacturers hate it when I tell people this "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #15 February 27, 2003 Quote We routinely order rigs from SunPath that are smaller than what they recommend size wise...otherwise, downsizing can be a real challenge. That works if you're in a more humid climate; on the east coast you can easily put a Sabre2 170 into a J1. Try packing that same canopy into a J1 at Perris or Eloy... different story. I think that's the reason my canopy is so tight in my Infinity - Kelly sized and builds them in Washington, I jump in Perris... Got no complaints about it being tight when I had Packing Kathy's crew packing for me at Rantoul (humid is not quite a strong enough word for Rantoul in August...). I never spec a container size when ordering custom; I always let the factory size the container based on the canopies my customer specifies. That way if the container comes in and the canopies don't fit... the manufacturer will generally take care of the problem at no charge since it was their mistake. If I spec a container size and the canopies don't fit? Uhhh... shit. Quote but a really good rigger should know the "field sizes" for the rig...Manufacturers hate it when I tell people this imho it would help if the manufacturers would give out accurate sizing so we don't have to guess and take into account pack volume differences depending on where the customer lives/jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #16 February 27, 2003 Quote imho it would help if the manufacturers would give out accurate sizing so we don't have to guess and take into account pack volume differences depending on where the customer lives/jumps. I totally agree, but just to CYA the Mfg. is always going to size large so they don't get hosed. It's the unfortunate truth, and it's also why a very current local rigger probably knows better what's going to fit well in a given rig than even the Mfg. does! Of course you're also right about putting the blame back on the Mfg. if it doesn't fit when you get a rig in... I guess that's just one of those fine-lines dealers walk, eh? In reference to your Mfg.-sized Infinity, Kelly does a pretty damn good job of being "field correct" with his rig...we've got no complaints at all up here, but we also work with him very closely.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #17 February 27, 2003 As a new jumper I bought a slightly used Triathlon 190, and stuffed it into a Javelin J3. I later traded in for a new Stiletto 150. The tri was a bit tight and the stiletto is a bit loose. Nothing to worry about, though. Granted that going from a big seven-cell to a small nine-cell probably made it just a touch easier. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #18 February 28, 2003 The type of rig depends on the 1 up, sized for, 1 down, If the closing loop is on the bottom flap its hard to get it tight enough to get that one down. Now on rigs that mount on the bottom of the main pack tray as a javelin does you can shorten the loop much father and keep the pack job much tighter.Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #19 February 28, 2003 This is kind of a tangent I guess, but oh well. There are so many factors in pack volume: -7 cell, 9 cell, cross-bracing, airlocks, which manufacturer the canopy is from... -how many jumps the canopy has on it -the type of lines -type of material the canopy is made of (and even the colors!) -how good at packing the jumper is -how humid or dry it is wherever the jumper is -the "actual" size of the canopy (how it is measured, topskin, bottomskin, etc) ETC. Also, one person's "tight" is another person's "loose." Talk to your friends who have the kind of rig you're thinking of buying. Find out what their rig was sized for and how their canopy packs up in it. Talk to the manufacturer....email, call, explain what canopies you would like to fit in your rig. Make sure you get exactly what you want! Don't just write down one main canopy on your order form. List anything you're interested in putting in the rig That's just my opinion... Oh, but then there are those times when two reserves or mains come in from the same manufacturer and they are the same size, same lines, same DOM, even the same colors...yet they pack up differently. Go figure blue skies and happy shopping, Heather Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
