Deuce 1 #76 June 22, 2006 Quotemy view is maybe too simple but I think that a women in a 4 way team bring calm & sensitivity and compensate her lack of strengh (she has it but less). combined with strong guys, it rocks. (the fourth having top skill of course). Forgive me, but that is just such a crock of horse merde. I was an American Policeman for 13 years. When the merde hits the fan I wanted all the gorillas bigger than me to show up and fix things (I'm 2m, 100Kg). The whole "calming down" crap had no place there. Any police officer, man or woman, who could contribute to controlling things was welcome, and we had many fierce women. Our women did not "bring calm and sensitivity" they brought novel entres to attack. Smarter, more efficient ways of detaining people. I have a VERY dynamic woman on my 4 way team who is exceptionally tough. I'm the camera flier, so I watch the way she flies her booties and drops her position. If everybody is over-rotating, yes you need more strength to stop blocks. The real answer is to stop needing muscular grabs to stop the blocks. So, my observation is like in everything else, women fly smarter versus flying more muscular. Just like Connie Krusi flies tandems smarter than me and I muscle them more. And she will last longer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gaillou 0 #77 June 23, 2006 Ok, super you know tough women, fine... it's not my point I'm talking about morphology, genetic attributes... take an average woman and an average guy, (statistically of course) the guy is heavier, have more muscles and have less fat tissues. that's all I say like endomorph people will be heavier than mesomorph people but having less staminaGuillaume French 4-way & 8-way suporter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blade 0 #78 June 26, 2006 ALL this is POINTLESS.... ALL sports on earth have a female class, not because men don't want female to share their teams but because everyone but some of you understand the fact that men and women don't have the same physical skills and strengh!! Open your eyes!! ALL sports have accezpted this fact. Do you really think that 4 way has nothing to do with physical skills?? People who say so have never done 4 way above 5 average for sure !!!! ( not even talking about 20 of course) PLease stop arguing about this obvious answer and let just admire those who can fly this fast, no matter if they are men or wemen... Patrick, who will be in Gera and supporting Female 4 way (french of course)Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gaillou 0 #79 June 26, 2006 Quote Patrick, who will be in Gera and supporting Female 4 way (french of course) especially your wife... Guillaume French 4-way & 8-way suporter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TalbertGK4 0 #80 June 26, 2006 I see a ton of analysis of peoples speed, meet experience even the size of their dicks, (which DOES make me faster!). The one thing I don’t see, maybe I missed is the whole "great when you have to be" thing. My personal opinion is this can be a deciding factor when the ability and experience levels seem to come out pretty much even. “This guy has 30k jumps and his name on the Ottley Swords 4 or 5 times vs. this team who has been together x # of years.” These are all valid barometers for sure. Do not discount the one word that will be synonymous with the winners this year, winner from years past and all those to come; and its not skydiver. It’s Champion. (Thanks Kirk) In 2006 we will see a team that in its heart, when all else has been said, truly believes that they will be named World Champion of Formation Skydiving. This team will never doubt or compare its skill or time in this sport to their competition. They know they have earned the right to be there and at this point skill, jumps #’s and meet experience are no longer something to be concerned with. We are roughly 2 months from the meet. You have what you have, or as they say in the redneck drag racing world I grew up with, “run what ya brung”. Not everyone will come home from Germany having held one of the Ottley Swords and unfortunately not everyone will come home feeling like they let it all hang out. One team however will come home saying, “We were not great all the time, we were great when we had to be.” Who is it going to be?! Shit dawg, Team USA will be great when they have to be. Later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #82 June 26, 2006 Just to expand a bit on the last line of your post, I think both of the US teams have shown they can battle it out when the sh*t hits the fan and still come out on top. Airspeed has shown countless times that tough competition doesn't phase them, and Fire came from behind in a brutal fight at nats this year to bring it home. And I agree with you completely, as talented and driven as all the other countries are you can't beat the team that brings a little bit of American badass to the table.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4wayFly 0 #83 June 26, 2006 QuoteI think both of the US teams have shown they can battle it out when the sh*t hits the fan and still come out on top So the US Women's team doesn't count as one of the US teams then? *Runs to safe place on Wind Tunnel Forum to avoid flaming from people who know much more than he does on these matters* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #84 June 26, 2006 QuoteALL this is POINTLESS.... In your opinion. Others are free to have other opinions....Or do you think only your views are worth anything? QuoteDo you really think that 4 way has nothing to do with physical skills?? I'm sure it has tons to do with *skills*. But thats different than just strength. The fact that some of the best skydivers in the world are women speak tons about how sex does not matter. Quote People who say so have never done 4 way above 5 average for sure !!!! ( not even talking about 20 of course) Done a bit higher than a 5 thanks."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #85 June 27, 2006 QuoteQuote Patrick, who will be in Gera and supporting Female 4 way (french of course) especially your wife... I'll be supporting his wife too scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gaillou 0 #86 June 27, 2006 that's it!!! finally you've decided to support good teams!!! great match yesterday... mouarfGuillaume French 4-way & 8-way suporter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #87 June 27, 2006 tonight I'll also be supporting the girls scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TalbertGK4 0 #88 June 27, 2006 I'm sure it has tons to do with *skills*. But thats different than just strength. The fact that some of the best skydivers in the world are women speak tons about how sex does not matter. Not sure how to do that fancy-schmancy thing where you show someones comment and then type your "in reply to" so I just copied Rons comment above. Typically this is not something I would voice my opinion on however I agree with Ron very strongly. To say that formation skydiving, 4, 8 or 16 way has little or nothing to do with physical skills is not completely accurate however it is a skill set that is VERY mental. There are physical skills involved however they have very little to do with strength. It is much more a physical application of INTENSE mental training. Typically I WAS 180-190 lbs (now I am a sweaty fat fuck and love it!) and a lazy bastard who did not run unless the cops were involved. I did manage to do fairly high averages in both 8 way (21.9 I think was my highest) and 4-way (I have no idea what it was, enough to win a national championship and get the tobacco juice beat out of me at the world meet) and although I had a considerably well developed skill set, I was never a very "strong" person. Do not confuse ability with strength and I know this is oh-so taboo however I agree with Ron on the need for a womens class. Having won a world championship with 7 other great skydivers, not 6 guys and a girl, I can tell you it just doesnt matter. You guys have gotten more of my cents in two days than you have the entire time I have been registered on DZ.com Now I am REALLY broke and have to go sell body armor! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #89 June 27, 2006 QuoteDo not confuse ability with strength and I know this is oh-so taboo however I agree with Ron on the need for a womens class. Having won a world championship with 7 other great skydivers, not 6 guys and a girl, I can tell you it just doesnt matter. From keyboard of someone who has done 20+ averages. That's worth a lot more than "2 cents" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #90 June 28, 2006 I know people with averages just as big as yours (and more jumps) who disagree with that view. However it's always interesting to hear a new opinion. I would also be interested to know what you think getting rid of the Female Category would actually achieve for the benefit of the sport. AA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #91 June 28, 2006 QuoteI would also be interested to know what you think getting rid of the Female Category would actually achieve for the benefit of the sport. more women in intermediate and advanced categories (thus promoting more learning for all women, not just those that get on a women's team, thus an eventual increase in the proportion of great women in the open classes) more co-ed teams general improvement of the non-gender specific categories an improved attitude toward getting good skydivers all competing together instead of an artificilly separated class maybe less gender bias by both men and women in this sport Maybe skydivers pick their skydiving role models based solely on personality and skill and not worry about gender at all (I'd like to fly as precisely as Lise, and I don't care who knows) downside - the road to represent your nation will be harder, thus discouraging the less talented from shooting for a National spot for their nation right now, I'd think there isn't a need for a separate class. But, the short term benefits seem to outweigh the long term benefits. So, until a team with at least 50% women is standing on the podium, I'd table the idea and visit it WHEN it happens. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #92 June 28, 2006 Quotemore women in intermediate and advanced categories (thus promoting more learning for all women, not just those that get on a women's team, thus an eventual increase in the proportion of great women in the open classes) I'm not really getting that. Why would there be more women in inter/ advanced? Top level females would still compete in Open at their Nationals wouldn't they? And by being there would they not encourage more women to train in Inter/ Advanced with a view to getting into Open like the role models they see there? Many countries are seeing a significant increase in all-female teams, no doubt in response to the impetus that they could become a National team if they continue to train. Quotemore co-ed teams Why is that better than more teams of any type? Quotegeneral improvement of the non-gender specific categories Why? Surely if there are fewer goals to target (such as National selection/ winning a World Meet etc) there will be fewer people and teams training so hard? Most teams train for a specific goal so why remove some of those goals? The more prestigious the goal, the harder teams train. If anything, the sport would be better if there were more categories, more leagues, more meets, more medal winners, more role models... Quotean improved attitude toward getting good skydivers all competing together instead of an artificilly separated class This is a circular argument because it presupposes that an 'artificially separated class' is a bad thing, whereas I don't think it is. QuoteMaybe skydivers pick their skydiving role models based solely on personality and skill and not worry about gender at all (I'd like to fly as precisely as Lise, and I don't care who knows) And I would like to turn as fast as Joey Jones, with the aggression of Mark Kirkby and the finesse of Eliana. I don't think having a Female class or not makes any difference to who people pick as role models (it obviously hasn't to you!), other than that they are more platforms for excellence and therefore more role models to consider. Quotedownside - the road to represent your nation will be harder, thus discouraging the less talented from shooting for a National spot for their nation This is quite a significant aspect I think, and impacts directly on the number of teams out there training hard, the number of individuals pushing their limits, the overall improvement of the quality of skydiving, the number of jumps being done at DZs, the amount of coaching work for coaches, the amount of packjobs for packers, the amount of media coverage for the sport, the range of teams whose progress it's fun to track and the number of meets worth following. I think the World Meet would lose something of value without the Women's Class and that would be a shame for everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #93 June 28, 2006 QuoteI know people with averages just as big as yours (and more jumps) who disagree with that view. However it's always interesting to hear a new opinion. Amazing. You claim that no one with out a 20+ avg that has not been on a team with a woman can make any real claims...With the exception of you. And then a guy that WON a World Meet with a woman says that it made no difference. And you want to claim you know others more experinced than him disagree. He WON a WORLD MEET with a female...I think that makes him more qualified than you or I. QuoteTop level females would still compete in Open at their Nationals wouldn't they? They did anyway, and would anyway. QuoteMany countries are seeing a significant increase in all-female teams, no doubt in response to the impetus that they could become a National team if they continue to train. You have proof that is the reason? Or are you making an assumption? Maybe women are seeing the barriers broken down against women as skydivers. And THAT is why there are more women? Either theory is valid. QuoteWhy? Surely if there are fewer goals to target (such as National selection/ winning a World Meet etc) there will be fewer people and teams training so hard? If that were the case then there would not be around 70 teams competing for one slot at the nationals. Most teams that compete will never have a shot at a World Meet, but they train anyway. QuoteThis is quite a significant aspect I think, and impacts directly on the number of teams out there training hard, the number of individuals pushing their limits, the overall improvement of the quality of skydiving, the number of jumps being done at DZs, the amount of coaching work for coaches, the amount of packjobs for packers, the amount of media coverage for the sport, the range of teams whose progress it's fun to track and the number of meets worth following. See the above. Most teams going to nationals have no chance of winning and going to the world meet, yet they still train, get coaching, buy gear, and compete. QuoteI think the World Meet would lose something of value without the Women's Class and that would be a shame for everyone. I think it would GAIN something. By recognizing that women are equal in this sport and they don't need to be treated differently. A big problem with females in skydiving is people like you don't think they can be equal. People like me think they can be. Break down that imaginary wall and suddenly women are on top in skydiving. It was nothing more than a vicious cycle. People think women need a special class, so women were not able to be taken seriously. Frankly thats BS. And teams like Airspeed, The Golden Knights, Fire, Sinapsi, Arcteryx, Perris Fury, Elsinore Gravity, AZ Thunder, ect are the proof. Anyway you asked for a Top level person who has been on a team with a female and you got one. With no profile entered and no information about you provided....I tend to think you are just trolling now."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #94 June 29, 2006 QuoteYou claim that no one with out a 20+ avg that has not been on a team with a woman can make any real claims...With the exception of you. I never said that, in fact I said it was interesting to hear his views. QuoteAnd then a guy that WON a World Meet with a woman says that it made no difference. And you want to claim you know others more experinced than him disagree Well, I do. Just as there are probably others who agree. The rest of your post is the same old ground we've already covered I think. I don't think taking away categories could possibly good for the sport. But I would reconsider if we saw all-female teams doing 20+ scores and genuinely competing for the top World medals. It may never happen, either because of intrinsic gender differences, or because of numbers of women in the sport. Either way I think the need for a Female class is still there, just as it is in any other sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #95 June 29, 2006 QuoteMost teams going to nationals have no chance of winning and going to the world meet, yet they still train, get coaching, buy gear, and compete. I'm talking about the level at which they train. Teams train harder when the stakes are higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #96 June 29, 2006 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You claim that no one with out a 20+ avg that has not been on a team with a woman can make any real claims...With the exception of you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never said that, in fact I said it was interesting to hear his views. Thats not what this says: Quote"I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'..." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #97 June 29, 2006 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most teams going to nationals have no chance of winning and going to the world meet, yet they still train, get coaching, buy gear, and compete. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm talking about the level at which they train. Teams train harder when the stakes are higher. Really? Last year the US womans team did amost no training at all...In fact my "Not having a chance team did more training". Your statement is an over generalization. Maybe SOME teams would not train as hard, but not all. And the fact we have so many teams in the mid teens goes to show that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #98 June 29, 2006 sorry to get you back on subject but Russian Panthers have just posted a sweet 42 in H-O-G-9 round of the Russian Nationals we are on weather hold 9 rounds, Panthers lead with 217, followed by Black Cat at 210 Kurt will have the draw and results shortly after the end of the competition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #99 June 29, 2006 QuoteYou claim that no one with out a 20+ avg that has not been on a team with a woman can make any real claims...With the exception of you. is not the same as saying: Quote"I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'..." My view is just as valid as yours (which I said in an earlier post). Chris obviously has more insight than both of us. And equally I have discussed the rights and wrongs of the woman's category with plenty of 20+ people who don't agree with Chris, in attempt to gain more of an educated view of my own. My discussions have lead me to my current viewpoint, which I reserve to right to change, although as yet I haven't heard a convincing enough reason to do so. There are women in most of the top teams in the world - we have NEVER seen so many women 'up there'. This is something that has happened SINCE the women's category, which again leads me to believe it is good for the sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alienangel 0 #100 June 29, 2006 QuoteYour statement is an over generalization. Maybe SOME teams would not train as hard, but not all. And the fact we have so many teams in the mid teens goes to show that. I think you're clutching at straws here. You are saying that competition, meets and recognition doesn't IN GENERAL spur teams on to train more? We might as well get rid of the Nationals and the World Meet altogether then... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
