skymedic 0 #26 February 6, 2003 How about pictures of a cut away from a spinning malfunction when you are on your BACK. THAT is my fear when jumping higly loaded elipticals and an RSL.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #27 February 6, 2003 Quote Kelly; I first starting playing around with this idea in about 1984. (I thought you saw the videos of early tests at symposium.) The problem I came across then, and which was still not solved before the Skyhook, is the problem of automatic release in the case of a main total malfunction. The Sorcerer system is designed for an external hand deployed reserve pilot chute system, and can only be released by pulling the pilot chute out of the pouch. It's a great system for base jumping, but if you used it on a normal internal spring-loaded pilot chute reserve (like we all jump), you would have a reserve horse shoe malfunction if your Cypres went off, or your reserve closing loop broke. That has aways been the key to make a system like this work. I had that pointed out to me when I was 12 playing with toy parachutes, I thought it made perfect sense to static line the reserve from the main until my uncle pointed out that you would be screwed in the event of a total. From what I understood, you had this part of the system worked out 10 years ago (so did I). Quote I would not sell this system without the Collin's lanyard because even one broken RSL riser without it (and there have been two this year I have heard about) would probably be fatal. And even one preventable fatality is too many. Besides, risers don't have to break...misrigged risers prematurely release all the time. Do all of your current (since the intro of the CL) sport rigs equipped with RSL's also have a Collins Lanyard? Because I don't understand why it is so critical for one and not the other. If a Skyhook RSL fires a reserve into a spinning mess, I think a standard one will do the same (as it has in the past). Quote The main advantage of this system (aside from its speed) is that it gives the average jumper a good reason to use an RSL. And that alone will save lives...24 in the last 10 years in the US alone. You don't think that if you would have introduced this system 10 years ago you would have saved most of those jumpers (if not all) if their rigs were so equipped? Quote As for pin checking...The system is very securely locked when you close your reserve container. This is but one of the problems I had to solve to make it practical. But even if it did come unhooked during the pack cycle, your reserve would still function just like it would if the Skyhook weren't there. I think that if a system is so critcal to the speed and safety of a reseve deployment, it should be able to be visually checked before jumping, just like your reserve pin and AAD. Quote As to whether cutting reserve deployment time in half for skydivers is revolutionary...well, I'll let others decide...but personally, I think it's kinda neat. For some applications I think it is revolutionary, but I don't see why it couldn't have been brought to market a decade ago. RSL's were still availabe that wouldn't release the opposite riser in the event of a premature riser release, I don't see how this would have been any different. I think it's pretty neat too, that's why I've been so interested in these kinds of systems for so longI think if you make it so you can "pin check" it you'll have a winner- it is a very nice system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #28 February 6, 2003 Quote Take a good look at the system, you will see a lot of difference, as Bill already mentioned exactly, how a sorcerer and the skyhook is different. Think about how many people this system could have saved in the past, And also he didn't abandon it like you said, he was trying to figure out a way to implement the skyhook with use of a spring loaded Pc, which couldn't be used with the sorcerer design. He had it figured out. QuoteAlso the collins lanyard isn't totally neccessary but it does help in the event of a horseshoe with a cutaway, where the riser's dont release at exactly the same time. Also it is another safe guard. The Collins lanyard was invented to ensure a clean breakaway in the event of a premature release of an RSL equipped riser on tandem systems, preventing the reseve from becoming entangled with the main canopy that is still attached by the other riser. QuoteAnd if you look at the V3 with the skyhook it is very easy to check to see if everything is ok. Yes, you can check that the RSL is attached to the riser, that it has the pin on the end of it going through the R/C. But you CANNOT verify that the Skyhook is attached, since it is packed inside the container.VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 0 #29 February 6, 2003 Bill can a Vector 2 modified to accept the skyhook? Bruno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #30 February 6, 2003 Alternatively, in Internet Explorer at least, right-mouse click on the page (it's loaded in a frameset which is why Kelly's link wasn't direct, so make sure you are actually in the frame with the document), select Properties from the context-sensitve menu. You can copy and paste the URL from the Address (URL) field. for use in URL links as explained by Hookit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #31 February 6, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for pin checking...The system is very securely locked when you close your reserve container. This is but one of the problems I had to solve to make it practical. But even if it did come unhooked during the pack cycle, your reserve would still function just like it would if the Skyhook weren't there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think that if a system is so critical to the speed and safety of a reserve deployment, it should be able to be visually checked before jumping, just like your reserve pin and AAD. Uhm... hopping this won't become a yes/no discussion... Neither can I check my cypres (if the loop goes through the cutter). I must agree with bill, if it fails (I won't discuss if that is a possibility) it doesn't interfere with the normal use of a normal reserve deployment. All in all it looks like a great system, but I know myself, first let it settle (in my mind) and then judge it... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #32 February 6, 2003 Or with Opera, right click and select "frame"-->"copy address"(see attached) There's really no point in using frames on a site that simple(or at all actually), but that's not a discussion for this forum... Bill: During your tests of the Skyhook, did you manage to cause a situation where the lanyard would get stuck during a normal(non-RSL) reserve-deployment? Can you think of a way that the system could be mis-rigged during a reserve repack, so that the Skyhook would hinder normal reserve deployment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #33 February 6, 2003 I was just thinking about that possibility, I presumme the RSL part after the "pin-puller" has quite alot of slack on it? 1) To prevent de skyhook ever to hang on the RSL part (which on his turn hangs on a reserve flap) 2) To prevent de pin-puller not being able to pull the pin because the skyhook is already being pulled on by the main. The latter would probably still result in a reserve deployment, but it would also destroy the reserve container... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #34 February 6, 2003 *** He had it figured out.Quote You must know something no one else know's. Bill Booth claims in previous post's that he didn't abandon it, he was waiting to perfect it, and design a way to implement it with a spring loaded pilot chute. And I dont see any reason to question that. *** The Collins lanyard was invented to ensure a clean breakaway in the event of a premature release of an RSL equipped riser on tandem systems, preventing the reseve from becoming entangled with the main canopy that is still attached by the other riser.Quote What point are you trying to make here? I know fully what a collins lanyard is, and what it does, you were asking how neccessary it is in a sport rig, and I was just stating it is a backup for sport rigs equiped with a skyhook.Quote Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #35 February 6, 2003 Bill: During your tests of the Skyhook, did you manage to cause a situation where the lanyard would get stuck during a normal(non-RSL) reserve-deployment? Can you think of a way that the system could be mis-rigged during a reserve repack, so that the Skyhook would hinder normal reserve deployment? While it is easy to connect the main riser and the reserve bridle, it is much harder to make sure that connection always releases in the event of a total malfunction. The connection must also release in the event of a breakaway from a horse shoe malfunction, where the main risers would initiate the reserve deployment but be unable to complete it. The Skyhook does both of these tasks amazingly well. It is the most "simple" device imaginable, with "no moving parts", so the chance of it not behaving the same way every time is almost non-existant. It is nearly impossible to mis-rig because the Skyhook lanyard is very short, and just barely long enough to get to the Skyhook. One of the main reasons I didn't go with my earlier designs was that they were more complicated and easier to mis-rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #35 February 6, 2003 Bill: During your tests of the Skyhook, did you manage to cause a situation where the lanyard would get stuck during a normal(non-RSL) reserve-deployment? Can you think of a way that the system could be mis-rigged during a reserve repack, so that the Skyhook would hinder normal reserve deployment? While it is easy to connect the main riser and the reserve bridle, it is much harder to make sure that connection always releases in the event of a total malfunction. The connection must also release in the event of a breakaway from a horse shoe malfunction, where the main risers would initiate the reserve deployment but be unable to complete it. The Skyhook does both of these tasks amazingly well. It is the most "simple" device imaginable, with "no moving parts", so the chance of it not behaving the same way every time is almost non-existant. It is nearly impossible to mis-rig because the Skyhook lanyard is very short, and just barely long enough to get to the Skyhook. One of the main reasons I didn't go with my earlier designs was that they were more complicated and easier to mis-rig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #36 February 6, 2003 Bill can a Vector 2 modified to accept the skyhook? Bruno Answer - Yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #37 February 6, 2003 Quote: I was just thinking about that possibility, I presumme the RSL part after the "pin-puller" has quite alot of slack on it? 1) To prevent de skyhook ever to hang on the RSL part (which on his turn hangs on a reserve flap) 2) To prevent de pin-puller not being able to pull the pin because the skyhook is already being pulled on by the main. The latter would probably still result in a reserve deployment, but it would also destroy the reserve container... Reply: Of course the system is designed so that the container is opened before the Skyhook is loaded Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #38 February 6, 2003 Quote: I think that if a system is so critcal to the speed and safety of a reseve deployment, it should be able to be visually checked before jumping, just like your reserve pin and AAD. Reply: There are a lot of things inside your reserve container you can't check from the outside. 1. Are you connector links tight? 2. Are the line bights through the safety stows correctly? 3. Is the closing loop through the Cypress cutter. 4. Have the Cypress batteries leaked acid all over your reserve canopy? 5. Did the rigger remove any packing aids he might have used? The Skyhook is sort of like an AAD. It's a back-up in case you get into bad situation. It does not, however, interfere with the normal functioning of your reserve system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #39 February 6, 2003 QuoteHow about pictures of a cut away from a spinning malfunction when you are on your BACK. THAT is my fear when jumping higly loaded elipticals and an RSL.... This would actually solve much of the problem of deploying on your back.... the whole fear of deploying on one's back is from the idea that the reserve apparatus would have to come out, around you, flip you over and hopefully not entangle you somewhere in the process. The spinning of the spinning mal (belly or back) would actually work to your advantage in this case -- your outward momentum from releasing form the spin would toss you laterally from the broken-away main and you'd reach linestrech nearly horizontally. There would be no flipping around/over/etc involved as you would just pendulum blow the inflating canopy that has already cleared your body. Point being that you wouldn't NEED to get belly-to-earth for this to help in that situation. Same principle as what bill has already shown, just facing up. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #40 February 6, 2003 bill, Forget about selling Skyhooks as "safety" devices. Safety is boring. Tell those cheapskates that a Skyhook will make it easier to find their freebag. He! He! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #41 February 6, 2003 The reason I think you should be able to pin check the system is since this is a "new technology", and you can pretty much engineer it to meet specific goals (hell, that's half the fun- figuring out all the pieces to the puzzle), why NOT make it so the system can be checked from the beginning? Some things have to be packed inside the container, and we have to trust that our riggers do their jobs correctly (how do we know that they didn't roll the nose on the reserve?), and we can talk until we're blue in the face about things we can't check, but why not make it so we can check as much of the system as possible? I think that you are copping out when you talk about all the things you can't check, but don't answer the questions that have been asked, and I think that makes the questions all the more valid. I think this is a good discussion, and we can all learn a bunch from it. And the Skyhook isn't like an AAD- it's an RSL, still a device that you should not rely on to save your life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #42 February 6, 2003 Quote Quote He had it figured out. You must know something no one else know's. There's a good chance I do. Quote Bill Booth claims in previous post's that he didn't abandon it, he was waiting to perfect it, and design a way to implement it with a spring loaded pilot chute. And I dont see any reason to question that. If Bill started to work on the system way back when, there is a good chance that he intended to use it one a skydiving rig with a spring loaded pilot chute. Marks system was designed from the beginning for a BASE rig with a hand deployed PC. So if Bill has been working for the last ten years on how to make it work with a spring loaded PC, he apparently got inspiration from Mark's system. Quote Quote The Collins lanyard was invented to ensure a clean breakaway in the event of a premature release of an RSL equipped riser on tandem systems, preventing the reseve from becoming entangled with the main canopy that is still attached by the other riser. What point are you trying to make here? I know fully what a collins lanyard is, and what it does, you were asking how neccessary it is in a sport rig, and I was just stating it is a backup for sport rigs equiped with a skyhook. In a previous post you stated: Quote Also the collins lanyard isn't totally neccessary but it does help in the event of a horseshoe with a cutaway, where the riser's dont release at exactly the same time. I just pointed out what it was designed for. I don't think it is likely that you will break a riser during a horseshoe, thus making the Collins Lanyard a non-issue. In a horseshoe, you will pull your cutaway handle and release BOTH risers (unless you are an underachiever and don't pull the handle that last inch). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Professor 0 #43 February 6, 2003 Bill, Nice system, simple and effective. One silly question though. If you had a total and reserve deployment on your back, and the reserve PC got up under your left arm, it looks, especially in the bottom picture, like the reserve PC connection on the cam could rotate around and be pulling directly against the skyhook lanyard, impeding the action of the cam and causing a hesitation/reserve PC in tow. Am I seeing the picture wrong? It seems like this could be solve by extending the cam further on the 'closed' (right) end and placing the attachment point for the PC there. This might lead to the skyhook detaching prematurely, but that would be better than it not detaching when it should. Blues, Ted Like a giddy school girl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #44 February 6, 2003 Quote And the Skyhook isn't like an AAD- it's an RSL, still a device that you should not rely on to save your life Ok, I'll byte: I never rely on an AAD to save my life also!The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #45 February 6, 2003 *** I just pointed out what it was designed for. I don't think it is likely that you will break a riser during a horseshoe, thus making the Collins Lanyard a non-issue. In a horseshoe, you will pull your cutaway handle and release BOTH risers (unless you are an underachiever and don't pull the handle that last inch). A cutaway from a horseshoe will not always release both riser's. Have you ever seen the Breakway video? Billy Webber had to manually release both riser's, one at a time. That was what I was referring to. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #46 February 6, 2003 Quotebill, Forget about selling Skyhooks as "safety" devices. Safety is boring. Tell those cheapskates that a Skyhook will make it easier to find their freebag. He! He! You are absolutely right. People almost never buy safety (with the Cypres being the obvious exception) The problem is, I fear I will loose more money not replacing lost free bags than I will make selling Skyhooks. Luckily, (for me at least) the free bag does not always stay hooked to the malfunction all the way to the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #47 February 6, 2003 Quote Luckily, (for me at least) the free bag does not always stay hooked to the malfunction all the way to the ground. This MUST be resolved before I start jumping this device...... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #48 February 6, 2003 Quote *** I just pointed out what it was designed for. I don't think it is likely that you will break a riser during a horseshoe, thus making the Collins Lanyard a non-issue. In a horseshoe, you will pull your cutaway handle and release BOTH risers (unless you are an underachiever and don't pull the handle that last inch). A cutaway from a horseshoe will not always release both riser's. Have you ever seen the Breakway video? Billy Webber had to manually release both riser's, one at a time. That was what I was referring to. So how will the Collins Lanyard be any different? All it does is pull the cutaway cable for the other side. If you have a horseshoe, you should be pulling your reserve pretty quickly anyway, so the Skyhook probably won't be much of an advantage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #49 February 6, 2003 Hiya Bill, looks good the improvement in safety of the skyhook, but you haven't mentioned anything about a 2 out situation or when pulling a reserve when the main is out is a necessity. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #50 February 6, 2003 Bill, QUOTE: Nice system, simple and effective. One silly question though. If you had a total and reserve deployment on your back, and the reserve PC got up under your left arm, it looks, especially in the bottom picture, like the reserve PC connection on the cam could rotate around and be pulling directly against the skyhook lanyard, impeding the action of the cam and causing a hesitation/reserve PC in tow. Am I seeing the picture wrong? It seems like this could be solve by extending the cam further on the 'closed' (right) end and placing the attachment point for the PC there. This might lead to the skyhook detaching prematurely, but that would be better than it not detaching when it should. REPLY: Ted; You would make a good parachute systems designer. Not many people pick on on that contingency. This is one of the many problems I had to solve to make the device safe. Actually, the Skyhook cam will release the pilot chute bridle in a main total situation, no matter which way the pilot chute goes. I insure this by the relationship between the end of the hook slot and the bridle attachment hole. Pulling on your back is going to hurt enough. I wouln't want to add to your problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
