arlo 0 #1 October 5, 2002 I've read alot of the comments regarding the wind tunnel in Orlando as it pertains to skydiving and I would like to give my personal view on it. Yes I work there and yes I skydive. I was a paying customer LONG before I started working there. Those that know me know that I'm not going to blow smoke up your ass or anything like that. I will call it as i see it. (these opinions are MINE and MINE only...they do not reflect the opinions of other skydivers or the staff at the windtunnel) 1) the tunnel is a substitute for skydiving. BAHMMMMP, no...gross misconception. The wind tunnel is a TOOL. It is a wonderful, valuable tool to help skydivers from AFF level students to 10K jump folks hone their skills. The wind tunnel does not teach you how to exit the plane, land your canopy, or do a horny gorilla. What the tunnel provides is an incredibly close simulation of your body's aerodynamics in freefall. Pushing air in the tunnel is like pushing air in freefall. It allows you INSTANT feedback and the ability to correct your body position in more than 70 second intervals. If you're learning to do knee turns, you can watch yourself screw it up a few times in the mirror and repeat it until you have it down (which could take months ;). It allows you to do the majority of the blocks in the dive pool. It allows you to nail down 17s (danish T-Murphy). It also teaches you to fly in close proximity...keeping the formation tight. I don't believe anyone has implied that people should go to the tunnel instead of skydive. But if it's cloudy out, or if there is a problem block to work on , or if you just want to try a few new things that you've been kicking around in your head for a few, the tunnel is a great place to do it. A few years ago when I first heard about "the tunnel," I was like, "why in hell would i pay to do simulated skydiving when i can just jump?" I found out you can do both and improve your skydiving ten-fold. it's awesome. Do you REALLY think you do center point turns? It's humbling the first time in. If you don't believe me, check out Thomas Hughes or Eliana Rodriguez. Thomas was a tunnel rat and after a few hundred (note I said HUNDRED) jumps, he is now on the British National Championship team Sebastian XL...doing a 20+ average...in his first year with the team. Eliana (and what a cool chick she is...love ya hun!) went from about 600 jumps to joining the US Womens 4-way team to having a World Meet GOLD medal...and is now a member of Airspeed Zulu. These are results. So before anyone thinks that the tunnel doesn't help...I beg to differ. I think that the tunnel is an exceptionally good compliment to skydiving. And on those rainy days when you can't jump, you bust out some moves in the tunnel. The tunnel coaches we keep talking about are people that understand the benefits of tunnel flying and have set up curriculums that combine the two. I can just tell you from personal experience how much better my body flying is because of the tunnel time that I have with my team. Again, this stuff is MY opinion and does not reflect that of anyone but me. :) Now I know that alot of people would agree with it, but it's not my place to speak for anyone else. on that note, i have some work to do and i hope this maybe sheds some light on the good stuff that you can gain from the tunnel. FYI: I don't get a dime for talking anyone into going to the tunnel to fly....so for the skeptics? I have no vested interest in singing it's praises or not. :) blues and have a great weekend, arlo oh yeah, this was too long to proof-read, so if there are typos, the heck with it. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #2 October 5, 2002 I'll second everything Arlo said. I only have about 4 hours of tunnel time, but I can already see a drastic improvement in my flying. I can't even stand to watch tapes of myself from before I got super-current and came to the tunnel. Becuase of the tunnel, I went from a poor body position and almost no leg awareness to a much better arm position and being able to fly with mostly my legs (how it should be). Side-slides used to be the bane of my existance...not anymore. I was just there again this past weekend, and I can't wait to get in the air and try everything out that I practiced. No, the tunnel can't help with exits or canopy control, but it can really help that freefall bit. If you're ever in Orlando (or Phoenix, pretty soon), take some time to fly in the tunnel. I watched people this weekend who were AFF students, and I could see an improvement in them after literally 6 minutes in there. As a matter of fact, Arlo, can you just give me SkyVenture's bank account number, so I can have my paycheck directly deposited in there? It would be a lot easier...Andi p.s. A lot of folks out west here give me the following reaction when I say I'm going to the tunnel: "Oh, I did that...it sucked. I hated that big baggy suit and I kept falling off the air." UGH. Not to bash the tourist attraction in Las Vegas, but out here, that's all we've had. The tunnel in Orlando is MUCH BETTER! The one in Vegas SUCKS. Don't go there. It's not worth it. Go to Orlando, you can wear your own gear and don't have to worry about "falling off". Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chief 0 #3 October 6, 2002 Hi Arlo: Thanks for the opinion. You brought up some good facts. Now if your employer wanted, they could give you a nice raise and use your statements for a promo! Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #4 October 6, 2002 Quote Hi Arlo: Thanks for the opinion. You brought up some good facts. Now if your employer wanted, they could give you a nice raise and use your statements for a promo! Thanks. No way dude. :) One thing you'll find out about me is that i pretty much say what's on my mind and I don't sugar-coat anything for ANYBODY. :) It just so happens that I like playing in the tunnel and have reaped the personal benefits of training in there. :) blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #5 October 7, 2002 More tunnel talk: There are about to be quite a few tunnel built, each better than what currently exists both in the civilian and military world. For those of you who didn't know it, the Elsinore VS-1 tunnel will be built by the same people who built our Fort Bragg tunnel. Needless to say, it will rock. I think it will be great to get some tunnels out on the left coast and up north like is being discussed. As for me, I will certainly agree that the tunnel is a phenomenal tool. I wish every student had the opportunity to get their shit straight in one before I had to drag his or her ass out on that Cat A (or D#1) AFF. True, it would not help me out with their exits, but man, it sure would keep down the number of Missouri Boat Rides. It's also a tremendous Instructor training tool. The fact that I get to do a lot of RW in there is great too, but there are plenty of things that you can get away with in freefall that you can't do in the tunnel (and vice versa) without substantially changing your flying style to avoid sinking out or corking within the confines of the cone. The bottom line is that while the tunnel is a fantastic tool, it can create some bad habits. I have well over 200 hours in the Bragg tunnel and consider myself very fortunate as such. Still, I sure am glad I didn't have to pay for it! I can't imagine how some of these people can afford to buy big blocks of time in the civilian tunnels. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoltan 0 #6 October 8, 2002 Yes, you are 100% right and nothing to question about your opinion. I must admit that windtunel is great tool and it helps to bring the high level competition skydive and the AFF training to a new level. No daubt about it... But still i am one of those who does not really like the idea of wind tunel :) i do not say that they all should be destroyed but as a minority opninion i think that after all the positive effects the wind tunles had on our loved sport it has its bad effects as well. Not admiting these bad effects is the same stupid as not to admit the benefits.. So let me explaine what i think as a negative side effect of the wind tunel. Competition 4-way... I beleive that the big mass of 4way jumpers has the missconception that it is the wind tunel they need. I am very sure that before a team decides to burn up few tousends in wind tunel they must realize that there are many things what they should learn before. These things are the eye-contact, flying the same level, solving problems like going low, launch the exits, make transitions on the hill, learn the dive poolby heart, and in general to act and perform in an extreme and dangerous enviroment and being responsible for each others. All these things are basic things which require jumps, real jumps, from real plane with real bodies. I do not know how many jumps a team need to do for it, but i think when a team learns these important thinks can turn some points (maybe 10-12 or even more depends on talent) already. And then comes the problem of the points.. not before. And many experienced 4way jumper says that there is no idea of wind-tuneling under 15 points...some say that if you are progressing without tunel than just keep jumping, but if your team stucked at 14-16 ponts then go and fix the problems in the tunel. And here I ask.. what good is if after 300 jumps you are able to turn 20+ ponts if you do not know basic things? 20+ ponts can make you a skygod (whic is a dangerous position) but does not save your ass when it should be saved. See my point? Some say that a kids should not learn reading and writing before school-age (even if it is cool) because it can have a bed effect on the kid's later studies... z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #7 October 8, 2002 I skydive to skydive, not to spend hours in a big fan. If I was training for competitive RW, then it would be another story, but for fun jumping, I dont see the point unless you have a big problem you need getting over (I'm not sure of what that would be, but I'm an open guy). Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #8 October 8, 2002 You're right, 4-way requires eye-contact, communication, etc. However, I consider a lot of that to be "running"...and you need to learn how to walk before you can run, if you get my analogy. Yeah, you can make hundreds of skydives (which will cost more than tunnel time, in the end) and go low on every single jump. Then you can go to the tunnel and spend 6 minutes practicing EXACTLY what you need to do with YOUR body to control your fall rate and expand your range, without having to worry about anything else. And on your next jump, you'll know...and if you go low, you can handle it. I don't think that's a waste of money at all. If anything, it's a bargain, since you just saved yourself a bunch more jumps learning how to control your fall rate. To me, the bottom line is that you are never going to be good at 4-way (or anything else, for that matter) if you aren't a good body pilot. Some people just choose to spend $600 for an hour in the tunnel as opposed to $1100 or so for 60 jumps (Ok, that depends on your jump ticket prices). Personally, due to the elevation of my DZ, 60 minutes of freefall would cost me around $1700. The tunnel is a steal if I want to work on my individual or even block flying skills. If you can't do a center-point turn, then no amount of eye-contact, fall rate control, or communication is going to help you turn more points on a 4-way. The tunnel is unforgiving that way...if you don't do a good turn on center, you're into the wall...instant feedback. The mirrors are cool, too! Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enrique 0 #9 October 8, 2002 Hey, Arlo, how much should I plan to spend (time & $$$) if I want to work on some center point turns in the tunnel? I know it depends on my skills, but I guess you would have a better idea than me. I have 330 jumps, most of them RW. Thanks. Enrique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #10 October 8, 2002 there's more to center point than just turning, side slides, translation, translation while turning, etc. you'd be wise to contact a coach and explain what you want to work on. you can spend hours in there (not at once), and still learn more, it's really up to you. (note, I'm not Arlo, she is much better looking that I) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #11 October 9, 2002 Quote Hey, Arlo, how much should I plan to spend (time & $$$) if I want to work on some center point turns in the tunnel? Thanks. Enrique Hi Enrique...what Dave said. :) He's spent his fair share training in the wind tunnel as well. I can't quantify how long it takes for you to learn something. Some things just come easier than others, so it's based on your learning curve. That's why Dave's advice is really good. A coach is paid to pick that stuff out and give you the feedback you need. Guess I made that clear as mud, eh? :) arlo ...and Dave? depends on who you ask. ;) you're not so shabby yourself, hun. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #12 October 23, 2002 I'm going to Orlando this weekend! I'm super excited and can't wait to tear through two hours of training! I do have a question...does it hurt when you hit the wall (or is it padded like an old room I used to...er...nevermind...)?? I only ask because I'm sure my turns are off center.....among other things... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #13 October 23, 2002 Quote I'm going to Orlando this weekend! I'm super excited and can't wait to tear through two hours of training! I do have a question...does it hurt when you hit the wall (or is it padded like an old room I used to...er...nevermind...)?? I only ask because I'm sure my turns are off center.....among other things... lexan, and steel, the anteroom has a padded floor, hit your knee with a hammer, it's about the same sensation. they'll let you use knee pads (do it), and you need a helmet also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #14 October 23, 2002 Quote I'm going to Orlando this weekend! I'm super excited and can't wait to tear through two hours of training! I do have a question...does it hurt when you hit the wall (or is it padded like an old room I used to...er...nevermind...)?? I only ask because I'm sure my turns are off center.....among other things... padding is for babies. ;) KIDDING!! Yes, the amount of pain is directly proportional to the intensity of the body to wall contact. ;) Seriously, USE THE KNEE PADS!! I've come out of there after 4-way and had my knees feel and look like hamburger meat because I was too stupid to remember to put the pads on...and I work there! There is no pride issue, use the pads. BUT, it's not gonna be as bad as you think. You're doing 2 hours?? How many people do you have in your group and are you getting coaching? If not, I would HIGHLY recommend it. Email me if you'd like regarding that stuff or call me there tomorrow (1-800-skyfun1). I'd hate for you to come all the way out from cali and not get full advantage of the tunnel. :) blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Watcher 0 #15 October 23, 2002 Knee Pads...? Should have bought a Merlin suit They have built in knee pads (great for kneeing the tunnel or kneeling in the plane). Jonathan Bartlett D-24876 AFF-I Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #16 October 23, 2002 Quote I'm going to Orlando this weekend! I'm super excited and can't wait to tear through two hours of training! I do have a question...does it hurt when you hit the wall (or is it padded like an old room I used to...er...nevermind...)?? I only ask because I'm sure my turns are off center.....among other things... Max, Is this your FIRST post?? Anyway, welcome aboard! Yeah, you're gonna love the tunnel. Just don't go "low" on your instructor. Wish I was going. Tell the gang I said "HI." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #17 October 23, 2002 Quote You're doing 2 hours?? How many people do you have in your group and are you getting coaching? Yes, I am getting coaching. I'm arriving with a bunch of folks from Elsinore. If you're working this weekend, I look forward to meeting you. Blues...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #18 October 23, 2002 Quote Just don't go "low" on your instructor. Wish I was going. Tell the gang I said "HI." Will do Mark! Have fun this weekend.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #19 October 24, 2002 Quote Knee Pads...? Should have bought a Merlin suit They have built in knee pads (great for kneeing the tunnel or kneeling in the plane). Built in knee pads stink...literally. Anyway, I haven't really had a problem using the knee pads in there...especially with all the tunnel time we did this year. Ms and Gs tend to back you into the wall a bit. Maybe one of these days I'll grow up to be too cool to wear those things AND do some decent 4-way...but who knows. blues, arlo Tunnel Vision Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #20 October 24, 2002 QuoteMs and Gs tend to back you into the wall a bit So you fly tail, eh? Gotta love those looooong formations...Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #21 October 24, 2002 arlo just doesn't fly tail. she kicks tails' ass all over the sky. she ROCKS!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #22 October 24, 2002 okay Stacy...where was the check supposed to be mailed to again? you guys are too kind. Andi...you got it right. I'm the ass-end of our 4-way team. pretty cool view, too. :) blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #23 October 24, 2002 Me too. It IS a great view, isn't it! OF course, my IC flies with her legs soooo wide, and I'm just a little girl with short arms...it took me 15 jumps to figure out how to take cat grips on her! We're coming back in January...can't wait to bang my knees on the tunnel walls doing M's and G's!Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #24 October 24, 2002 you can just give the check to one of the XL guys next weekend at the camp, i'll be flying with them. I'll also take the "Friends of Arlo" discount.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #25 November 3, 2002 ...Just got back from Orlando and can't wait to try out my new found skills tomorrow!! The tunnel was an absolute blast and the two hours I spent were absolutely terrific!!!Anyone who is thinking about signing up with one of the camps that Kurt Graebel put together -- you won't regret it. It is worth every penny! I have no significant criticisms of the curriculum they are developing. I got to spend solid air-time with some amazing people, both talented and enthusiastic. Still new to the sport, I was a little "star struck" with some of the folks who coached me and felt very privileged that they committed to spend so much time with all of us at the camp. The results were tangible, resulting in more confidence overall. I can't wait! If you're thinking about it, GO FOR IT!So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
