danielcroft 2 #1 Posted February 28, 2017 If, like me, you weren't at PIA you probably didn't see that PD released a hybrid order option for the VK. This means that, within a couple of weeks, we'll have the option to use white or black sail for the internal ribs on their order form for $100 on top of the regular VK price. That's ribs only, not cross braces or tail ribs. QuoteIntroducing the Valkyrie Hybrid – everything you love about the Valkyrie but more. We incorporated sail fabric into the Valkyrie’s ribs to give her more power, more responsiveness, and a longer recovery arc than a standard construction Valkyrie. Available as an option when purchasing a custom wing, the sail ribs are a great addition for a seasoned or first-time Valkyrie owner. Retail: $3445.00 They'll have demos out "soon" - I'm not holding my breath literally as I can only do that for a minute or two but I am figuratively. This gives people like myself who prefer the VK's flight characteristics over the other wings in that segment a higher performance option without going all the way to a Peregrine (which I wouldn't). It also gives CP peeps a wing to take up against the NZA Hybrid Leia and now, Airwolf from Fluid Wings. NZA has had this option for a long time, I'm glad PD has now made this available as well. I haven't had a chance to fly one yet but, I'm looking forward to getting a demo VK79 hybrid to compare to mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #2 February 28, 2017 QuoteWe incorporated sail fabric into the Valkyrie’s ribs to give her more power, more responsiveness, and a longer recovery arc than a standard construction Valkyrie Maybe a bit offtopic, but does somebody happen to know how exactly sail ribs change these characteristics? My understanding is that sail fabric is a bit more stiff than standard ZP, which translates to less deformations in the top/bottom skins. But if that is all, I have to admit that I am surprised that it has measurable effects. The speed of these wings should keep them pretty good pressurized, so the top surface should have relatively few wrinkles. And most of these wrinkles will stay there, since the only part that is more stiff is the ribs, not the top/bottom skins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #3 February 28, 2017 Deimian Maybe a bit offtopic, but does somebody happen to know how exactly sail ribs change these characteristics? My understanding is that sail fabric is a bit more stiff than standard ZP, which translates to less deformations in the top/bottom skins. But if that is all, I have to admit that I am surprised that it has measurable effects. The speed of these wings should keep them pretty good pressurized, so the top surface should have relatively few wrinkles. And most of these wrinkles will stay there, since the only part that is more stiff is the ribs, not the top/bottom skins. Nothing to do with that. It's actually the opposite, those wings are "too" pressurized, so they deform, in this case I'd imagine that the pressurization "pushes" the top and bottom skin far apart, as in the wing becomes "thicker" then it is at trim speed. Now, without getting in a long discussion, let's just say we know that for swooping a "thin" wing is more performing. Having the ribs made of sail material, i.e. less elastic that ZP, will keep the wing "thin" during the overpressurization of a swoop. Not sure how much of this effect is measurable and how much is advertisement, for that I'd have to see actual CFDs and numbers, which of course I don't have, but the physics behind it is at least sound.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #4 February 28, 2017 Di0 Nothing to do with that. It's actually the opposite, those wings are "too" pressurized, so they deform, in this case I'd imagine that the pressurization "pushes" the top and bottom skin far apart, as in the wing becomes "thicker" then it is at trim speed. That makes perfect sense. Thank you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topspark101 0 #5 March 2, 2017 If that is the case with sail ribs less elastic than zp and keeping canopy from over pressurisation, then having xbraces made from zp seems to defeat the exercise ? Surely for it to be beneficial for more performance the whole internals or canopy needs to be sail ? Just a marketing gimmick.... if you want to jump a hybrid... try a nz jpx leia ! PD just following in NZ Aerosports Wake.... ? :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blis 1 #6 March 3, 2017 topspark101If that is the case with sail ribs less elastic than zp and keeping canopy from over pressurisation, then having xbraces made from zp seems to defeat the exercise ? Surely for it to be beneficial for more performance the whole internals or canopy needs to be sail ? Just a marketing gimmick.... if you want to jump a hybrid... try a nz jpx leia ! PD just following in NZ Aerosports Wake.... ? :-) Packing volume is one part of the equation, all sail means much greater pack volume compared to just ribs being sail... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skow 6 #7 March 3, 2017 topspark101If that is the case with sail ribs less elastic than zp and keeping canopy from over pressurisation, then having xbraces made from zp seems to defeat the exercise ? Surely for it to be beneficial for more performance the whole internals or canopy needs to be sail ? Just a marketing gimmick.... if you want to jump a hybrid... try a nz jpx leia ! PD just following in NZ Aerosports Wake.... ? :-) I think (might be wrong) but the idea of crossbraces is not to keep the shape of the wing (as the ribs do) but to have fewer lines. In that sense would make sense to make them from ZP to reduce the pack volume (as stated above) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #8 March 3, 2017 skow I think (might be wrong) but the idea of crossbraces is not to keep the shape of the wing (as the ribs do) but to have fewer lines. My understanding is that it is kind of both. In a normal canopy the lines are attached to loaded ribs. To create a more efficient surface with less deformation between ribs you need to have more ribs. But adding ribs without loading some/most of them won't solve the problem, since there will be deformation anyway. So you have to increase the number of lines (cells), to load some of these new ribs, so the shape is better retained. But more lines mean more drag, so you kind of cancel out that benefit. With crossbraces from a single attachment point you are loading 1 rib and 2 crossbraces. The crossbraces allow therefore to eliminate 2 unloaded ribs. The shape is better retained, but without increasing the number of lines. Does it makes sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topspark101 0 #9 March 3, 2017 I get what you are saying but if what you say is true, get a katana with sail ribs and you have a more elliptical and efficient(thinner) wing with less riser pressure...? :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deimian 43 #10 March 3, 2017 I would assume that the difference in a canopy as a katana is negligible. Just extremely high performance canopies are offered in sail or hybrid configurations, as far as I know. You don't get Velos, JFX, JVX, Xaos, etc with sail. In other words, if you fly those canopies, but need more performance, you move to more modern designs. If you need more performance in the most modern designs, then you move to sail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topspark101 0 #11 March 3, 2017 You can get NZ JVX in full sail material.....an absolute swoop machine... but packs up HUGE..! :-) But as of my first repost, in my opinion, sail ribs only on a VK are not going to make $100 difference in performance, added to the now $3345 rrp on a VK..... as I said before, just sales/marketing tactics....! :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #12 March 4, 2017 The main benefit of sail is it doesnt stretch on the bias and reduces the chordwise distortion between attachment points. sail is coated with polyurethane or an epoxy, instead of silicone. The crossbraces are zp, (i assume) for pack volume and there is not much of a benefit of sail there. anywhere they can possibly deform, they are taped and reinforced. You will see a slight improvement at first, but then as the coating cracks and flakes off, it will underperform zp. Somewhere between jump 350 and 500 id bet the zp version, side by side will perform better from there on out... If nothing else changes it will not change major flight characteristics. it will simply feel sportier and slightly more responsive.. the recovery arc should actually decrease as you add efficiency and take away distortions, so i dont buy that... This is why fluid wings has developed their own fabric with one of their suppliers, that is both siliconized for longevity and another super secret coating that gives it a little edge over normal zp without the cracking and flaking and pack volume of normal sail cloths. Were calling it FT-30. Its entirely different than sail and more classified as a zp type material, but its also different than anything else out there and showing promise. The airwolf will be available in all zp, FT-30 ribs, and FT-30 ribs and topskin.... just saying I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #13 March 6, 2017 You want information on the Fluid Wings Airwolf? Go to the Valkyrie Hybrid thread... Seriously though, I'm glad we all have so many options, it's only good for consumers. :-) Still looking for a video from FW on the "easy" way to attach their slider, btw. I can haz? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #14 March 18, 2017 Little bit of a shameless plug but hey, why not... we have a new slider design as well that's in testing... super easy to hook up and will fit the existing rings current fluid ring owners have. I personally have had more complaints about the rds than anything else... Super fast to hook up, coming very very soon...I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnmatrix 21 #15 March 18, 2017 Deimian*** I think (might be wrong) but the idea of crossbraces is not to keep the shape of the wing (as the ribs do) but to have fewer lines. My understanding is that it is kind of both. In a normal canopy the lines are attached to loaded ribs. To create a more efficient surface with less deformation between ribs you need to have more ribs. But adding ribs without loading some/most of them won't solve the problem, since there will be deformation anyway. So you have to increase the number of lines (cells), to load some of these new ribs, so the shape is better retained. But more lines mean more drag, so you kind of cancel out that benefit. With crossbraces from a single attachment point you are loading 1 rib and 2 crossbraces. The crossbraces allow therefore to eliminate 2 unloaded ribs. The shape is better retained, but without increasing the number of lines. Does it makes sense? That is my understanding of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pobrause 6 #16 March 18, 2017 Alexg3265Little bit of a shameless plug but hey, why not... we have a new slider design as well that's in testing... super easy to hook up and will fit the existing rings current fluid ring owners have. I personally have had more complaints about the rds than anything else... Super fast to hook up, coming very very soon... Please have a look at the Lookma RDS-design. This is how removables should look and work like. Please try to make yours as similar as possible ;)------------------------------------------------------- To absent friends Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #17 March 18, 2017 Alexg3265 Little bit of a shameless plug but hey, why not... we have a new slider design as well that's in testing... super easy to hook up and will fit the existing rings current fluid ring owners have. I personally have had more complaints about the rds than anything else... Super fast to hook up, coming very very soon... Yeah, definitely left a lasting impression on me, I never did get a good explanation of why peeps at Fluid thought it was a good design. I was expecting that there was/is one but, given that it's been redesigned, maybe those concerns have been addressed. Seems like you could have a whole thread of your own about Fluid stuff... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pobrause 6 #18 March 18, 2017 danielcroft ***Little bit of a shameless plug but hey, why not... we have a new slider design as well that's in testing... super easy to hook up and will fit the existing rings current fluid ring owners have. I personally have had more complaints about the rds than anything else... Super fast to hook up, coming very very soon... Yeah, definitely left a lasting impression on me, I never did get a good explanation of why peeps at Fluid thought it was a good design. I was expecting that there was/is one but, given that it's been redesigned, maybe those concerns have been addressed. Seems like you could have a whole thread of your own about Fluid stuff... Never seen a FW-RDS in real life but from the pictures it looks pretty similar to the NZA model?!------------------------------------------------------- To absent friends Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexg3265 0 #19 March 18, 2017 the slider that is currently used is the "original" removable slider that was designed by scott roberts and was used by pd for a while when he was competing and i guess he never saw a reason to change it. Now there is... For the record, myself and quite a few of the people doing testing have voiced our complaints about the design... Personally ive made quite a few of my own sliders based somewhat off of a lookma design and do like that... however... the new one is even easier and faster than that to hook up, its lighter, and has no grommets to feed through...I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TommyBotten 0 #20 March 19, 2017 Personally I really like the FW RDS. Sure it takes more time to set up, but the release is very light and releases all fours rings simultaneously, which is more than you can say about either PDs or NZAs RDS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skow 6 #21 March 20, 2017 If you want a good RDS slider buy one from SkyLark. Super easy to use in the air and put back on. Dealing with my current NZ Aerosports slider after Skylark's is a pain in the ass... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
28337 2 #22 May 1, 2017 skowIf you want a good RDS slider buy one from SkyLark. Super easy to use in the air and put back on. Dealing with my current NZ Aerosports slider after Skylark's is a pain in the ass...true, but Skylark do not makes custom sliders, Skylark makes RDS for their own canopies only (Scirocco, Odyssey, etc.) and I'm not sure that Scirocco's RDS fits Velo or FW. I have Scirocco's RDS and it is 1/5 times larger than Velo's. And when I attached Skylark RDS to my VE103, I've got soft and looooong openings. It was a real problem to make slider fall down to risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #23 May 1, 2017 Pobrause*** Please have a look at the Lookma RDS-design. This is how removables should look and work like. Please try to make yours as similar as possible ;). I don't use a full RDS. But this year I bought a lookma slider. It was for a katana 120 I jump a crossfire 2 169. I had intended to just use the lookma rings and have a slider custom made. But when I got it in and compared the size it was actually larger than the stock crossfire slider. Not much just slightly. The lookma snivel it a bit longer and I have to " help" it down to the risers. But fifty or so test jumps and I love it so fari have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
28337 2 #24 June 17, 2017 sail fabric is only for ribs? what about x-braces? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
28337 2 #25 June 17, 2017 28337sail fabric is only for ribs? what about x-braces?I beleive I found an answer - according to PD-Canopix3D sail fabric used only for inner ribs and it can be white or black, x-braces are regular zp. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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