Landing with double fronts

[mdrejhon 8]

Hello,

I haven't actually landed yet with double fronts, but I've gotten them to a lower altitude to the point where I can see a little increased ground rush (if I chinup). Basically, ending it at 150-200 feet. I don't want to be a competitive swooper, but I'd like to at least land with double fronts gradually. Already have Germain's book here...

However, the front riser pressure of my Sabre 170 is rather intense to the point where I hate using the dive loops because they hurt my hands, rather grab the front riser at the S-Links (I even feel I have a better grip too). I have to actually pull a lot on the front risers or even chinup, to feel noticeably increased breeze in my face -- it's not very responsive, intense input required and I worry I'd drop the front risers from that chinup (rather than smoothly release them). Not a good thing at low altitude, even though it's definitely a bigger boat of a chute.

I'll just stick to stuff like flare turns and such, get better at pushing it in these other ways. Understand this 170 as well as I can. Unfortunately it's also getting a little weaker in its flare too - being a nearly 500 jump canopy (with some accelerated wear-and-tear from early newbie packing back when I got it, and from recent exposure to abrasive Perris dust!) rather than a sprightly 175 jump canopy - so I can't do my flare turn carves as big as I used to. (I'm actually nervous to push the flare turns as much, due to the weaker flare now -- but this could change once I speed it up with some double fronts, only problem is the severe front riser intensity required to get noticeable extra wind)

I'm starting to think I'll never start learning to swoop at ground level under this one -- maybe left-size to a different kind of 170 (Sabre 2) or get as good as I can with this 170 then downsize to 150 (which I've already demo jumped a dozen times for fun). I'd get lesser front riser pressure with either approach, or more comfortable stiff dive loops.

Anyone think I should even dare try to swoop the 170 in a straight-in double front manner? Maybe wait until I got 500 jumps under 170, even -- and then do one level of downsize/leftsize in order to get that lighter front riser pressure. I'm not in a freaking hurry, but I'd like to push the Sabre 170 limits a little more eventually.

Opinion? I know a good pro can swoop even a Sabre 230, but...

(I'll probably take a canopy course within the next hundred jumps, but comments will help me decide on a canopy progression that could happen around the same time)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I haven't actually landed yet with double fronts, but I've gotten them to a lower altitude to the point where I can see a little increased ground rush (if I chinup). Basically, ending it at 150-200 feet. I don't want to be a competitive swooper, but I'd like to at least land with double fronts gradually.

If you try to flare with them it would hurt...

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However, the front riser pressure of my Sabre 170 is rather intense to the point where I hate using the dive loops because they hurt my hands, rather grab the front riser at the S-Links (I even feel I have a better grip too).

Only downside I can think is pulling more breaks than using the dive loops.

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Anyone think I should even dare try to swoop the 170 in a straight-in double front manner?

I don't think its about dare. Its OK if your break lines are long enough and your canopy is not buffeting when your are using fronts. Using fronts in the beginning of learning how to swoop is important, you can learn how your canopy is react, how fast can it recover. You may need 3 things to get a nice swoop: get speed, bring it down and use it for level flight. I can agree that it would not be easy to make your Sabre dive on your WL and keep it in dive specially using double fronts. You may have less fight with a canopy with a bit longer recovery and under bit more WL. Take it slow, have it safe!

[skydemon2 0]

A canopy worn out at 500 jumps? What did you do put it in the dryer with a load of sand? I have 1100 jumps on mine in the same conditions and it still flys and flairs fine.

Double fronts are a good way to begin building up speed for landing but you have do it at landing levels, 200 feet in the air wont help. Start with doubles then 90deg front riser turns, etc. Remember twice the speed 4 time the flare power! At your wing loading it will never be a swoop machine but you can learn the basics and have the safety factor of a slower canopy and really learn to fly the shit out of it. Then when youre ready to down size you will have the basics down and be confident you are ready to step down a size. And yeah a canopy course is always good.

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone!

I like to start my day off with a little Ray of Soulshine™!!

[mdrejhon 8]

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If you try to flare with them it would hurt...

If I ever do get brainlock and do such a dumbass thing, at least I'm not flying under a JVX-37

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A canopy worn out at 500 jumps?

I didn't say that. It's not worn out, lands beautifully and softly for my needs, just the glide is about 30% less than what it used to be. You're familiar with the fact that brand new slippery ZP is hard to deflate air out of at 100 jumps (Especially bigger ZP canopies), but easy to pack at 500 jumps. It's lost some of its original "zero porosity". That's well known, nothing new. The porosity that makes it easier to pack (this fact is well known...) also means the glide will be a little bit shorter, that's all... But for me, I don't have that much surf to begin with
I'm slowly getting the double fronts lower and lower, just have not stayed on the fronts lower than 200 feet because I haven't felt ready to do so yet. Since I literally have to chinup -- lift my whole body -- to get noticeable speedup out of it. Even at chinup, I think it goes less than double its original speed based on my impression of increased wind blowing in my face, but looks might be deceiving. When ready, I'll first try slight doublefronts all the way (which may only give me a 20% speed boost) since I'm not sure I'm comfortable doing a chinup on the risers all the way (risk of accidentally dropping a front riser when trying to let go smoothly -- though I'd probably drop the other front riser quick to compensate; my Sabre doesn't respond abruptly if I instantly let go a chinup, but I don't want to put that to the test at near ground level....)

[Chrisky 0]

Nothing wrong with checking out your front risers. Ending at 150 feet cant hurt, literally. I saw someone flaring with double fronts earlier this year and it wasn't pretty. He was lucky with 3 bolted-down vertebrae and no losses in sensing and motors.
Being able to fly front risers might just save your ass on a long spot under strong winds.

To have them snap back from chinup (symmetrically) isnt so bad as the canopy returns to full-flight rather than a slow-flight trim state. The trick is to find the right timing (Read: altitude) to release the fronts and not have to dig toggles to enter horizontal flight. This is basically flying the recovery arc of the accelerated canopy straight to flare/touchdown.

Sure you can swoop the 170, speed is a matter of loading the wing(and knowing to fly it); the agility and handling differs from smaller canopies due to longer leverage of the longer lines (etc.), but you know that as you've read Germains book already.

A way to get the fronts down easier is to go to your brakes, let up the brakes and grab the fronts while the canopy recovers from the brake.

Watch your altitude, practice up high. No shame in aborting.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[rwieder 0]

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Landing with double fronts

Should your canopy hit the ground before you do, you'll be in a world of hurt, if you live. I've seen this before, it's ugly.

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the front riser pressure of my Sabre 170 is rather intense to the point where I hate using the dive loops because they hurt my hands

Why do you think this is?

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Already have Germain's book here...

Books are allright, but some books, and a couple of canopy courses is one better.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[JohnDeere 0]

You say your canopy doesnt have the power it used to, you should measure the line trim. You could probly put new lines on it and it would fly like new. Or it could just be your brake lines. While in full flight look at your brake lines and see if they bow back and also look at the tail of the canopy while in full flight, and see if it looks like the brakes are aplied while in full flight.

You may also look around the dz and talk to the swoopers and find some risers that have better dive loops.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[DocPop 1]

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However, the front riser pressure of my Sabre 170 is rather intense to the point where I hate using the dive loops because they hurt my hands, rather grab the front riser at the S-Links (I even feel I have a better grip too).

Only downside I can think is pulling more breaks than using the dive loops.

Using dive loops is more likely to pull on the brakes because you start with you hands maybe 2-3 inches lower down the risers than if you grab the slinks.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[mdrejhon 8]

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Landing with double fronts

Should your canopy hit the ground before you do, you'll be in a world of hurt, if you live. I've seen this before, it's ugly.

Obviously, Landing with a double front approach

Even with a chinup, and snapping back and fourth, the canopy isn't getting ahead of me enough to hit the ground before I... Not at this size and squareness anyway, unless I do something crazy like a full chinup with both hands on a single front riser -- or do a sudden recovery from a near-bowtie deep stall, something I'm not planning on doing at near ground level... (unless it's some unfortunate mal I hope to never get into that low!)

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the front riser pressure of my Sabre 170 is rather intense to the point where I hate using the dive loops because they hurt my hands

Why do you think this is?

It's just a strap, not stiff dive loops. Have you ever tried to do chinups with several fingers in a flexible strap? The fingers compress together quite hard -- ouch. I'd rather grab the whole front risers at the S-links on this particular canopy, unless I got some stiffer dive loops... (There is enough slack in the brakes that it's not an issue)

To get the speed % increase that some of you swoopers can do with relatively light pressure on some small canopies, I have to actually lift my entire body on the straps to only barely double the speed of the canopy...

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Already have Germain's book here...

Books are allright, but some books, and a couple of canopy courses is one better.

Agree...

I very much intend to get some coaching from somebody before I do any turns (15's, 30's, 45's, 90's, whatever progression that may ensue) My priority is RW bigways after all, so I am likely not doing any front riser turns (except at altitude during solos) this year anyway...

[mdrejhon 8]

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Being able to fly front risers might just save your ass on a long spot under strong winds.

That's why I use double fronts sometimes -- such as get across the runway faster before I'm below 1000 feet.

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A way to get the fronts down easier is to go to your brakes, let up the brakes and grab the fronts while the canopy recovers from the brake.

Thanks -- I have gotten this good tip from two others recently too, and I'll be definitely doing some high-altitude trials on that.

[AggieDave 6]

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To get the speed % increase that some of you swoopers can do with relatively light pressure on some small canopies, I have to actually lift my entire body on the straps to only barely double the speed of the canopy..

You, sir, have never jumped a VX I take it. That canopy has some of the highest front riser pressure I've seen from a high performance canopy. Sabre2's have a lighter front riser pressure.

There's technique to your turn that will help "fix" that problem. Get with your local canopy mentor to learn those tricks.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mdrejhon 8]

That brings me to a question -- I'll have to trial Sabre versus Sabre2 front riser pressure next time I demo a Sabre2. (I jump a Sabre original)

I'm on it rightaway, sir, to endeavour to gain more tips to help handle the front riser pressure. Thanks!

[wngarner 0]

I've been using double-front dive approaches for the last 150+ jumps on my sabre2 150 (loaded at a bit over a 1:1). I took Scott Miller's course several times before I was trying these but I talked to him alot about how to start them when I was ready, so I would highly recommend talking to a canopy coach and taking a course (I just don't subscribe to the thinking that reading or talking about flying a canopy will help you actually fly the canopy - you need to get interactive).

As for any advice...
(1) the front riser pressure is pretty deadly for me too, partly due to loading and partly due to the fact that I'm a puss. But I use the "half-break flight for 1-2 seconds, let up and immediately go to fronts" approach. That way you're catching the canopy when its starting its recovery arc (surging from being in breaks).
(2) Check the trim as well as the length of your break lines - a good friend noticed when I first started trying dive loops that I was also getting break input, so my rigger checked the specs and found that over the 200 jumps since its last line set, the break lines were almost 1.5 inches too short.
(3) As for lost flare, again, have your rigger check the trim, short of packing on pavement and sand, the fabric shouldn't be that worn after 500 jumps, Mine has 1000 and still has the low-speed/bottom-end flare the sabre2 is famous for.

Blue ones!

- ever the spazz

Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart, give yourself to it...

[billvon 2,400]

A few suggestions -

Check line trim against a chart. I _think_ the older Sabres should all be the same length (i.e. all A's should be the same, all B's the same etc.) If they are more than 2" different you might see a degraded flare; I've seen discrepancies as much as 6-8". If you have a trim problem, get the lineset replaced.

Make sure you have enough slack in your brake lines to pull down front risers a lot without deflecting the tail at all.

Might want to consider better risers. I don't like my Icon risers (older style) for front riser work. Infinity risers are great.

If you do start working on front riser landings, choose ideal days/areas (moderate wind, soft area) and practice getting to the point where you give it double fronts, let go and it recovers on its own before you have to flare. That will give you a slight edge in the flare. Then move down _slowly._ Germain recommends that you plan your approach so you need a very small amount of brake to level the canopy and start the flare. Any more than a slight amount puts you "in the corner" which is a dangerous place to be.

Don't worry about dropping them too much. If you drop one, just drop the other and use toggles to level the wing if it's turning.

Also keep in mind you don't need to do this for the last 1000 feet. Going to front risers for 3-4 seconds will give you extra speed without wearing you out.

Sabre 1's are indeed sorta heavy on the front risers. A Safire2 or Sabre2 might give you better results.

[mdrejhon 8]

Thanks for the tips!

So far I have these summarizations:

- Canopy coach, canopy coach, canopy coach.
- More mentor talk.

- Sabre 1 is confirmed to have high front riser pressure.

- Check my line trim. (good one)

- Better risers with better dive loops.

- More experimentation at altitude (slight brakes before pulling down risers, verify smooth transition from front risers to brakes for a smooth flare, etc.)

[mdrejhon 8]

Well, I did it!

It was easy -- probably a side effect of not trying any swooping until jump #299 and having jumped this same canopy for roughly 250 jumps.

From jump 290 thru 298, I did some trials at increasingly lower altitudes and to test the ground rush and recovery arc... Then finally I went for it at 299 through 302, for four seemingly successful standup swoops in light winds (then 302 was a zero wind). I must admit I talked only to two mentors, and one of watched only a couple of them.

As I expected - light brakes, then release, take double fronts (it definitely made it easier to do a bit of brakes at first), graceful release (it feels as if it self flares, a little) and transition to brakes, and a much slower-than-usual dynamic flare as I wait for it to finish an exciting surf. Not too much double fronts, not a chinup, and

Much longer surfs I ever had under my Sabre 170. Even longer than non-swoops under my demo jumps under Sabre 150. The 170 is a whole new parachute now, that's worthwhile to keep jumping.

Lest I be tempted to try front riser turns, I'll get canopy coaching for that -- Even at altitude,I can see a canopy suddenly drops in a turn, and is much more risky than just simply double fronts. I don't want to break my legs though, so not in a rush to go into that just yet...

With this extra flare power, it's exciting (and a little scary sometimes) to land again. All standups so far, even in zero wind, I just haven't seen this much speed before (even though it's tame to a lot of long-time swoopers).

[cefey 1]

I dont see anything wrong with doing double front on that point.
Just remember to let them go before you get to te ground.

Take a realy good time, and learn how canopy recover in different speed and wind cond.
Use 50-100 jumps for it, before you start on 45*.
When you learn 45* realy well, go for 90* and so on.
But take your time to learn before starting on turns/longer turns.

Blue skys and soft landings to all!

[mdrejhon 8]

For the amount I'm currently pulling the fronts down, I've finished letting them go at approximately 25-40 feet above the ground, since the recovery is extremely short and quickly-self-recovering on a relatively-light-loaded Sabre1.

If I let go any higher (even 50 feet), it feels like it is back to normal full glide by the time I'm starting my flare and it behaves more like a normal flare normally. I lose the speed boost after 2-3 seconds. Hopefully this altitude sounds about right for double fronts on a lightly loaded one. I know that I won't necessarily need to finish letting go the fronts that low with different canopies and/or when I someday start swoop turns (not this year)....

[mdrejhon 8]

Okay, learning lots --

I think I had a few 100+ feet surfs (if I time it right that my fronts gets gradually ripped out of my hands by 30 feet), so I'm surprised that the Sabre 170 can do that even in light upwind conditions.

Am doing double fronts every landing now, even at Perris P3 (light double fronts), as it actually makes landing easier. Two skipped/aborted ones due to simply needing to pay attention to nearby traffic. Also I find I shutdown the canopy faster -- A one-step-forward or two-step-forward zero wind landing is now possible if I flare just right with a very sudden finish-flare motion near the end. Not reliable at doing that yet every single zero wind landing, but Sabre 170 is proving to have healthy safety margin for experimentation so far. Varying the speed of letting go the fronts and aiming the let-go at the point where the dynamic flare is the smoothest possible (no jerky flare motions). Sweet spot seems to be approx 30 ft. Any lower, I start to jab brakes slightly (pre-existing dynamic-flare instinct kicking in) to arrest descent, any higher than 40 feet it feels like a high semi-planeout followed by normal glide and flare. High altitude intentional deep jabs from double fronts show really powerful popups, does not seem to result in high speed stalls - maybe my canopy is mostly immune to that phenomenon. Either way, I never want to get deep into that corner at ground level.