DocPop 1 #26 July 25, 2008 QuoteI haven't had the time to measure them exactly and compare with a trim chart. Maybe I'll take a tape home from work and do that this evening. What Luigi Cani told me was that for canopies like yours (Sabre2 170) and mine (Sabre2 150), the factory recommended line trim does not take into account the use of front risers as PD set them up for more intermediate level pilots. I lengthened my lines by 2.5 inches from the factory mark as a result of his course (the canopy is almost new - 50ish jumps) and it works out great. I lost some bottom end flare, but the extra lift from the accelerated landings more than made up for it."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JanuszPS 0 #27 July 25, 2008 Quote What Luigi Cani told me was that for canopies like yours (Sabre2 170) and mine (Sabre2 150), the factory recommended line trim does not take into account the use of front risers as PD set them up for more intermediate level pilots. I lengthened my lines by 2.5 inches ... I lost some bottom end flare.... That's why I didn't like Sb2 150 and moved to different canopy. regards JanuszBack to Poland... back home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #28 July 25, 2008 Actually, with my Sabre2, even with factory brake settings I could not induce a toggle stall, and I was using the longest risers where I could still reach the slider. Were your Cobalt's brakes set up correctly "out of the box"?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blink 0 #29 July 25, 2008 With my Saber2 135 factory settings I have to hold the toggles all the way for a few secodns before it'll stall, and that's on 23" risers, the amount of bow in the lines is perfect, I can stall it, yet still pul the fronts past my chest. Maybe your lines shrunk a few inches, making it buck when pulling fronts/deflecting tail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JanuszPS 0 #30 July 25, 2008 I bought my cobalt with about 200 jumps (God knows if this is true). Anyway, the lines (including steering) were shrunk. Don't know exactly what you mean asking if they were set up correctly "out of the box". When I extended steering lines, they were extended slightly beyond the manufacturer recommendations. I love cobalt for the way which it flies and after this season I'm going to reline it in the original factory (Europe - Slovenia) and keep for another 100 jumps or season. Before the extension of the steering lines my Cobalt was buckling. In terms of my Sb2 150 I experimented several times with different set-up. I was barely able to stall the canopy - in fact I did this only once during my second canopy course with Jeffro. I needed to put the toggles down to my knees to stall it. And the canopy still was buckling when I was using fronts. This and sinking (steep glide ratio) property was a reason for getting Cobalt. But I'm still unexperienced jumper, so don't take everything for sure.... After all I have not experienced more off-dz landings on any other canopy than with my Sb2. In fact I feel quite comfortable with this after that training. Here in Ireland where I jump the wind plays huge role... regards Janusz Edit: Sorry for my EnglishBack to Poland... back home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #31 August 8, 2008 Just wanted to give a quick update. I asked a few people to watch what I had been doing on landing. Feedback - that's not toggle whipping! I guess they consider toggle whipping actually burying a toggle close to the ground whereas I'm maybe pulling 8" or so. In any event I've discontinued using the toggles to make turns close to the ground. Tried front risering a few in and letting the risers up a few seconds before the flare. The resulting increase in speed is similar to toggle turns. tI tried adding 1/2" to the toggle length but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I only had 1 jump on the longer toggles so I'll have to jump it some more to see. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #32 August 8, 2008 Quote In any event I've discontinued using the toggles to make turns close to the ground. Tried front risering a few in and letting the risers up a few seconds before the flare. The resulting increase in speed is similar to toggle turns. tI tried adding 1/2" to the toggle length but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I only had 1 jump on the longer toggles so I'll have to jump it some more to see. I never got more than 200-250 jumps out of my Spectra Stiletto steering lines before they shrunk unacceptably, and added 6" beyond the shrunken state the last time I replaced them. Subsequent measurements of the outer lines on the canopy showed 5-6" of shrinkage in ~600 jumps. Obviously canopies with longer lines will suffer more. The steering lines see friction around the guide ring during normal flight so they shrink more than the outer lines. The lines may have started a few inches short of where they need to be to avoid tail deflection during front riser input. They may have shrunk a few inches more. If your only problem is steering line length, 1/2" may be way short of what you need. What shape do the brake lines make when the toggles are all the way up? You want the tail to be straight with a nice arc to the control lines. If you shorten them and don't get a decent flare at altitude, you can take a couple wraps around the first few fingers (a whole handful might be too much). Obviously, people making these sorts of changes need to assume all responsibility for their actions. I'm just relaying what I did that worked for me on one particular canopy. My Samurai has vectran steering lines that don't shrink. Given a choice I'd probably put Dacron steering lines on with a cat-eye for the brake stow so I'd have lines that didn't shrink and didn't abrade as easily. Dacron is fatter than heavy Vectran or Spectra, although you're only looking at 2 out of 20 lines so the aerodynamic consequences should be minimal. You don't want your steering lines to break and don't want weird handling characteristics on front risers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #33 August 8, 2008 QuoteDacron is fatter than heavy Vectran or Spectra, although you're only looking at 2 out of 20 lines so the aerodynamic consequences should be minimal. You don't want your steering lines to break and don't want weird handling characteristics on front risers. This was an option Joe Bennett experimented with on my canopy when I was jumping one of his ultra thin line sets. I too was VERY happy with the dacron brake lines. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #34 August 10, 2008 I think I'll send it in for a reline this winter. I wonder if I could get them to make the brake lines out of the next size up spectra. Also considering asking if it's possible to have it relined with HMA but I don't know if it's available for the sabre2. That black stuff that comes with a Nitron would look ultra cool... The amount of time to make a lineset it retarded so there is no point in doing any of the work myself and with the local master rigger. -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #35 August 10, 2008 The sabre2's (to my knowledge) are not available with HMA of any kind. Also, having your brakes lined with thicker spectra won't prevent them from shrinking - it's a property of spectra line when exposed to head (friction). Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #36 August 11, 2008 >I wonder if I could get them to make the brake lines out of the next size up spectra. Replace them with dacron. It's not hard, it's stretchier and it helps prevent shrinkage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #37 August 11, 2008 Quote The sabre2's (to my knowledge) are not available with HMA of any kind. I line them with 600lb Technora at the customer's request. Quote Also, having your brakes lined with thicker spectra won't prevent them from shrinking - it's a property of spectra line when exposed to head (friction). It seems the thicker the material, the longer it takes to shrink. For example, 500 Spectra to 725 Spectra ..... BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #38 August 11, 2008 QuoteIt seems the thicker the material, the longer it takes to shrink. For example, 500 Spectra to 725 Spectra ..... True - but dacron is a better choice. At least, that's what you (and Joe at the time) were providing for lower control lines when I was jumping the lines you sell. QuoteI line them with 600lb Technora at the customer's request. I'll rephrase - The sabre2's (to my knowledge) are not available with HMA of any kind from the manufacturer. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #39 August 11, 2008 Quote True - but dacron is a better choice. At least, that's what you (and Joe at the time) were providing for lower control lines when I was jumping the lines you sell. I agree on the Dacron. I was just trying to point out the fact that Spectra in a thicker format does have a plus side to it. Quote I'll rephrase - The sabre2's (to my knowledge) are not available with HMA of any kind from the manufacturer. I heard that a couple of canopies had been reline by PD with Technora. With that said I have never seen one other than ones that we have done. Hopefully, it will catch on like it did with the Katana. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
