Hop´n´pops

[morris 0]

From reading stuff like the posts for "Swooping in Lodi", listening to stories I´ve been told from different places and from what I know myself from some DZs, it seems like it´s getting more and more difficult to be able to do hop´n´pops - at least in/at some places or at least for reasonable prizes.
I´m not posting this under/in "Swooping in Lodi" cause I think it´s a way to important issue to be related just to one place/DZ.

Questions are why this is?
And, even way more important, what can we do about it?

I believe that most DZ-owners think they are loosing money if the are selling h´n´p-tickets.
They believe they could be selling those slots for/as full altitude rides, making more money.
I think they are wrong!
In my opinion this "DZ-owners-theory" just holds true in very rare situations (if at all).
Those are the days where a DZ has way more request for slots than aircraft-capacity.
This happens - at most places - just a few days per year.
In any other situation hop´n´pops are ADDITIONAL tickets sold, I´m very sure about this.
I´ve been doing a lot of teamvideo for many years, now I´m almost out of it.
I still keep on jumping a lot.
If it wouldn´t be for CP and h´n´ps I wouldn´t be doing so and very likely really slow down.
This is not just because of my personal love for CP, it´s due to the prices as well.
If my discipline of choice would require full altitude - as it does for the vast majority of jumpers - I would be far far away from doing the same jumpnumbers - it just wouldn´t be worth the money (at least for me).
There aren´t that many persons out there who don´t have to take care about prices at all and therefore it´s very likely that I´m not the only one who thinks about how much he (or she) gets out of/for his/her money.
Swoopers are paying way more money per feet of altitude and are therefore the best business a DZ can have!!
The best that could happen to a DZ (besides tandems and students, we´re talking about licensed jumpers here) would be "swoopers-only".
They could fly at least twice the amount of loads (compared to full alti) and ask for way more than half the price per slot, right?
In "DZs-reality" those "hnp-only-loads" aren´t flown that many times.

Owners will argue that take off takes the most fuel.
How about the rate of climb above 10000ft MSL??

Owners will argue they need to give us an extra pass.
1. We don´t really need an extra pass do we?
Just throw us out "somewhere over the area", you don´t even have to reduce the power, this gives us faster openings.
2. How about the better rate of climb if you throw out a few persons as long as you´r flying in dense air and keep on going with the same rate of climb all the way up with the now lighter aircraft?

Maybe it would be nice/a good idea to 1. discuss my arguments here and then 2. add some more arguments to it.
Wouldn´t it be nice to have a list of arguments with an answer to every "con" a DZ-owner might come up with as a final result here? Everyone of us could use that list if needed...

P.S.:
To the "tandem-factories":
We not only cut the waiting time for your passengers and visitors (in?)between (sorry, I´m not a native speaker is it "between" or "inbetween"?) the action taking place (landings) in half.
In addition we provide the way better show - take this for granted!
Morris

[PhreeZone 15]

The counter arguement to this is that plane owners are more likely to make a load full by selling full altitude tickets then for solo hop and pop tickets. It s more likely that the solo freefall will turn into a 2 or 3 way then it is that a solo hop and pop jumper will get more jumpers on the plane. Same thing with a 3 way becoming a 5 way by getting 2 more people on the plane. In the end is the groups that get larger and fill the plane to its limits and not usually solo jumpers.

In the end the plane owner just cares about filling every seat on the plane and making the most amount of money possible for their expendatures.


There is an aircraft owner here in the states that charges $15 per person just to get onto his plane since that covers the plane loan cost, insurance, pilot, etc. That does not include the cost of the fuel that the DZ needs to buy to fly the load. Cost to the jumper for a hop and pop ends up being about $19 and a full altitude is about $22-23. At that price no one goes for the hop and pop since in order to save $100 you need to make 25 jumps or more. The cost over an entire season of doing hop and pops vs full altitude (250 jumps a year) is less then $1000 difference.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[morris 0]

Lucky for us (the Europeans) it is different over here.
(If we think about the Euro for us being the same as the Dollar for you...)
The price to full altitude for a single ticket without any discounts (team, many jumps, whatever) ranges at most places from 25-27 (=more expensive than in the states), the average price for a hnp is about 15 (=cheaper than in the states). If you are doing a lot of jumps you can get it for 12.
Therefore hnps are more or less half the price of full altitude and you can save a lot of money or make twice the amount of jumps...

[MagicGuy 0]

Well, counter argument to that side of it being that if it was a dropzone that had a lot of swoopers, those tickets would sell just as fast as the full altitude slots would.

I personally love hop and pops and have been doing more of them than going all the way up. Makes practicing swooping much safer and easier, plus if you suck it down a bit you can get freefall and more open airspace in one package! Doesn't get much better than that.

Besides, in my opinion I think hop and pops get taken for granted and think more people should be doing them more often than they do. I watched a skydiving instructor try to do a stable exit last season after not having done one in a while and said instructor did about 7 backflips before getting stable. Kinda scary..

[morris 0]

And:
I don´t think it costs the (plane)operator 15.- before he even gets the plane into the air.
Maybe he is just telling you it would be like that...
The DZ I´m most familiar with in the states is DeLand (I can highly recommend that place).
Have a look at Bobs prices (the owner) and keep in mind that it is not a tandem-factory (where the tandems can "sponsor" the rest of the jumps) but first of all a team place.
Not even talking about the team-discounts, I´d say the jump-prices (at that particular DZ) are very very reasonable and fair.
The hnp-price in DeLand is 15.- and it wouldn´t be 15.- if the slot would cost the owner 15.- before even take off and without the expensive fuel.
Worst case szenario is very likely that it´s 15.- with the fuel included, don´t you think so?

[davelepka 4]

Your problem is that you're making your argument based on several assumptions. If any one of your assumptions proves to be incorrect, then your argument isn't valid at that DZ.

For example, the cost of the slot to cover the loan on the plane. How can you compare the cost to cover the loan from one DZ to the next? The cost of the plane, the amount of that cost that was financed, and the interest rate on the loan will all effect the amount of the monthly payment.

Many aircraft at summer only DZs are on a lease. Again the terms from lease to lease vary, so the cost to cover that lease will vary as well.

It terms of justifying the cost of a hop n pop, also keep in mind that flying a low pass requires as extra jump run.

Often times based on the location, the jump planes fly a certain 'pattern' as they climb based on the direction they take off, any airspace restrictions from ATC, and possible sound abatement. Given these factors, DZOs will find the route that will allow for the fastest climb to altitude, which would be the route with the fewest, most gentle turns as airplanes climb faster in a straight line than in a turn.

Even if climb pattern keeps the AC close to the DZ, leveling off and cutting the power adds time and cost to the load. Extra cost incurred for a lower priced slot.

It's not a black and white issue. The number of factors involved makes each DZs situation unique.

[PhreeZone 15]

You are assuming a lot for your figures. Owned vs leased planes always have a cost difference. Planes owned by the DZ tend to be cheaper then planes leased since one more person needs to make money in the equation. I know for a fact that the lease rate from at least one plane owner is they want $14 or $15 per slot for their costs out of whatever the DZ charges plus the ferry fee to and from the DZ at the start/end of the season. The money owed is the same to the plane's owner if it is a tandem, an AFF, a team or a swooper. In a situation like this there is no room for the DZ to make money if they only charge $15-18 if they happen to send up a load with mainly swoopers which happens when the clouds move in. At a certian point the DZ loses money on days like that.

I have seen some DZ's use their 182 for swoopers since the plane has lower operational costs then a large turbine but then they also need to figure in the costs of a second plane into their pricing.

I know of one DZ that only has clearence to drop at 6000 feet and up, at that point the cost is almost the same to avoid the pass overhead and keep right on climbingto the top.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[dannydan 0]

$10 to 5-6k
$15 to 10-10.5k
onboard a 182

About jump 65 is when I decided that HnPs for the price was cool enuf when looking at what I wanted and what I was getting in return... Like MagicGuy says, "suck it down" some and get the best of both worlds!! Me likey!

Our loads are 99.7% full no matter what the dive plan is of each individual.

*Tandem with vid and one solo (usually HnP)
*3ways with a solo HnP
*4ways from 10.5k and or 4way HnPs... These are SUPER fun!
*2 solo HnPs and a full alt 2way belly or free...
etc etc etc... with NO change in flight pattern!

Every once in awhile we get a turbine, and it is expected that there is price fee jump and WE LOVE IT!!! We can handle CASAs Otter, PACs so its ALL good!

IMHO i see no reason to totally not ever provide HnPs at any "hobby" or buisness DZ..***

[raymod2 1]

Morris, I agree with you completely and I am disappointed that more people haven't chimed in. At a time when canopy piloting accidents are receiving more and more attention it is counterproductive for dropzone owners to disallow hop-n-pops or to discourage them with unreasonable prices. A hop-n-pop has always been recognized as the ideal environment to work on canopy skills and if we want to reduce canopy piloting incidents we should be encouraging them.

[piahenzi 0]

I'm currently working with new management at a NJ DZ to incorporate HNP's and Swooping as a part of what they will offer when they get up and running as well as have a CPC course installed there full time for NE CPC pilots to practice. This is a recent development for me as my DZ no longer allows HNP at any price and were not interested in supporting this CP idea.
I am hopeful that we will be able to get it done over time. The idea would be to have swoopers training and the newbies filling the planes with us so we can give back canopy piloting and traffic negotiating skills to the newbs - ie video and debrief each other with positive feedback etc. It's in its infancy stage but with some DZ help, I think we can do something worthwhile up here.

[strop45 0]

Hey people, not to get to deep or philosophical, but have you heard of the free market. If you don't like the products or costs from one DZ, go to one where you do like it. None doing what you want at a cost you like, start your own DZ and sell Hop n Pops at $5. If its a good idea you'll make money. If not well, that explains why the current DZs aren't doing what you want.

At the end of the day, the current DZOs are actually trying to make a living and are free to offer what ever services they like at whatever cost they want. As customers, you can accept what's on offer or go elsewhere.

'The customer is always right' isn't the same as saying the customer should set the price and the product (except by going elsewhere.).

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[piahenzi 0]

Quote

Hey people, not to get to deep or philosophical, but have you heard of the free market. If you don't like the products or costs from one DZ, go to one where you do like it. None doing what you want at a cost you like, start your own DZ and sell Hop n Pops at $5. If its a good idea you'll make money. If not well, that explains why the current DZs aren't doing what you want.

At the end of the day, the current DZOs are actually trying to make a living and are free to offer what ever services they like at whatever cost they want. As customers, you can accept what's on offer or go elsewhere.

'The customer is always right' isn't the same as saying the customer should set the price and the product (except by going elsewhere.).

exactly why I took my idea and searched for another DZ that would entertain it.... nothing wrong with that is there??? I am a business person and get the profit motive idea, at the same time, I also see that giving back to the customer base every now and then, is a great way to retain them.... just a thought.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

The counter arguement to this is that plane owners are more likely to make a load full by selling full altitude tickets then for solo hop and pop tickets.

That depends on the plane and jumper demographic.

A lot more experienced jumpers will take the fifth seat in a C182 for the short cheap ride to a hop and pop than a $20+ 45 minute ride for a 10,000 foot solo.

More experienced jumpers will fill a few hop and pop slots on back to back turbine loads mostly filled with students (like early in the morning - there are places where lots of experienced skydivers sleep until 10) when they wouldn't take a solo ride to altitude and would be on at most every other load.

Quote

There is an aircraft owner here in the states that charges $15 per person just to get onto his plane since that covers the plane loan cost, insurance, pilot, etc. That does not include the cost of the fuel that the DZ needs to buy to fly the load. Cost to the jumper for a hop and pop ends up being about $19 and a full altitude is about $22-23. At that price no one goes for the hop and pop since in order to save $100 you need to make 25 jumps or more.

With a turbine hop and pop I have no canopy traffic to deal with and can make a jump every fiteen minutes, get my fill, and go home to do other things. With rides to full altitude there's traffic to deal with and a landing every thirty minutes. The hop and pop is decidedly safer, more fun, and more time efficient.

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Quote

Hey people, not to get to deep or philosophical, but have you heard of the free market. If you don't like the products or costs from one DZ, go to one where you do like it. None doing what you want at a cost you like, start your own DZ and sell Hop n Pops at $5. If its a good idea you'll make money. If not well, that explains why the current DZs aren't doing what you want.

At the end of the day, the current DZOs are actually trying to make a living and are free to offer what ever services they like at whatever cost they want. As customers, you can accept what's on offer or go elsewhere.

'The customer is always right' isn't the same as saying the customer should set the price and the product (except by going elsewhere.).

exactly why I took my idea and searched for another DZ that would entertain it.... nothing wrong with that is there??? I am a business person and get the profit motive idea, at the same time, I also see that giving back to the customer base every now and then, is a great way to retain them.... just a thought.

and it is even closer to your house :-P

less gas and hop and pops

get in touch with ryan if that is the case at that certain dz...

Cheers

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.