marks 0 #51 June 30, 2006 both of you are in your rears a little early. try turning 50 ft higher, back up from the gates 50 ft, and hit your rears a little later and a little more, and feel the extra power you get. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #52 July 29, 2006 QuoteWould be great to see a vid of someone loaded about the same on the same type of canopy doing the same type of turn and using the same tools (neptune) for comparison. If I can get hold of it, I'll try to drag out some footage of me on a VX-114 at 2.54 at Perris earlier this year. I was initiating my 270 5-6 second turn from brakes at 750ft (using a combo of eyes and Neptune Audible), and coming out perfect...(Turn wise, if not exactly where I wanted to be vis a vis the gates!). When I took this back to my cooler bonnie Scotland at sea-level, I was expecting to have to either bring down my initiation point, or speed up my rotation, to account for the differing density altitude. Whether because of the large wing, or the slightly heavier loading, I seem to be just fine with the same initiation point back here...wierdness...again, I'll try to get some ground video to back this up next weekend...(plus I'm still at the stage of my swooping life where I can't get enough of watching myself!) --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast1 0 #53 July 31, 2006 QuoteFor VX my ideal starting point is 500-550 feet, slow 5-6 second right hand 270 turn with some rear riser input to level it out at the last second. wow...I think you man are doin' something wrong... I start at 500ft for a 180turn under my katana 107 loaded 1.8....... and I have a good recovery arc and nice 180-200ft swoops..w/out havin' to plan too soon..Andrea "Fast" Scaramuzza http://www.fastsky.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #54 July 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteFor VX my ideal starting point is 500-550 feet, slow 5-6 second right hand 270 turn with some rear riser input to level it out at the last second. wow...I think you man are doin' something wrong... I start at 500ft for a 180turn under my katana 107 loaded 1.8....... and I have a good recovery arc and nice 180-200ft swoops..w/out havin' to plan too soon.. gee, thanks for your inputSoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #55 July 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteFor VX my ideal starting point is 500-550 feet, slow 5-6 second right hand 270 turn with some rear riser input to level it out at the last second. wow...I think you man are doin' something wrong... I start at 500ft for a 180turn under my katana 107 loaded 1.8....... and I have a good recovery arc and nice 180-200ft swoops..w/out havin' to plan too soon.. i think the katana will dive just as much as a vx. there is a possibility that it dives more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #56 July 31, 2006 Quotei think the katana will dive just as much as a vx. there is a possibility that it dives more. In my experience with the two canopies, the Katana loaded at 2.1 had a longer dive then the VX loaded at 2.4. YMMV.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Flying_thomtom 0 #57 August 1, 2006 QuoteQuotei think the katana will dive just as much as a vx. there is a possibility that it dives more. In my experience with the two canopies, the Katana loaded at 2.1 had a longer dive then the VX loaded at 2.4. YMMV. is it not too much a 2.1 wingload for a katana, mine is loaded à 1.8 and I thought it was a good deal to have a good dive and still a good lift ? If I Can't Have a JAVELIN, I'm not jumping ! Gravity is our only engine, Speed is our only friend. Ils flottent, ils flottent tous en bas et bientot tu flotteras aussi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #58 August 1, 2006 Quoteis it not too much a 2.1 wingload for a katana, mine is loaded à 1.8 and I thought it was a good deal to have a good dive and still a good lift ? I personally felt like the Katana loaded at 2.1:1 was a bit overloaded. Others might like the canopy at that wingloading, I personally did not. I jumped another one loaded at 1.8:1 and I thought it was a really great wingloading for the canopy. Good performance, best canopy in its class (comparing it to the same sized Mamba, Vengence, Stiletto, Crossfire2 and Cobalt).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hparrish 0 #59 August 2, 2006 What about Winds...........No One has mentioned what the winds are doing during these 500 ft 270's. I start my turns much higher on a no wind day than on a high wind day. I never stick with a standard height for all wind conditions. My 270 Hooks range from 500 feet on a smokin Windy Day to a 750 feet on a no wind / down wind day. Is it possible that Frost is at a DZ that consistently has higher winds. Altitude is also a factor. I noticed when I jumped in Tahoe or Montana that I needed to initiate my dives higher, or I'd be in the corner. Lastly..........Why is anyone comparing a 180 turn to a 270 turn, to a 360+ degree turn. I thought we were talking about 270's at 500 feet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #60 August 2, 2006 Harry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites raymod2 1 #61 August 2, 2006 Ian, maybe people turn lower in high wind conditions because they don't like getting pushed back by the wind so they rush their turns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #62 August 2, 2006 Quote Ian, maybe people turn lower in high wind conditions because they don't like getting pushed back by the wind so they rush their turns? That's probably one of the best insights I've heard in a while. Sometimes the obvious stares us hehe. I'm going to store that one away. My guess is that you're probably right on the money most of the time with that one. I'll have to amend my prior post say: Wind speed has ZERO effect on the initiation altitude of a turn, assuming the same rotation speed. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hparrish 0 #63 August 3, 2006 QuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dlee 0 #64 August 3, 2006 i guess we know why you are called meatbomb!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dlee 0 #65 August 3, 2006 I have a crossfire 2 loaded 1.51 lbs/sqft. i start my turn between 450 and 500 ft. i am guessing you should go a little higher. I put two short movies on www.skydivingmovies.com both are called "270 not that interesting" one is 450ft the other is 470ft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #66 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. it does not change the way the canopy dives either, although your perception of things is different, the actual physical properties are the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #67 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. if you can get away with it in high winds, you can get away with it downwind/ crosswind/ or no wind.. it really has no effect. if you are coming to the farm, get ian to explain it to you, if he has trouble explaining it or you dont understand. come ask me and i will give it a shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #68 August 3, 2006 I think Scott Miller has a great way of explaining it (and other concepts too). I'm looking forward to taking his Essentials and Advanced classes again, especially to learn good ways to relay the information. IMO, any instructor (licensed or not) teaching canopy flight in any way should take his course. There are a lot of old myths out there that are put to rest, as well as a healthy dose of good information that is well relayed and structured. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #69 August 3, 2006 QuoteMO, any instructor (licensed or not) teaching canopy flight in any way should take his course. There are a lot of old myths out there that are put to rest, as well as a healthy dose of good information that is well relayed and structured. Yeah, I'm about tired of the bullshit about winds effecting your turning altitudes. I asked someone once "if you turn higher when facing into the wind, what about when you shoot a downwind course? Do you turn lower?" They "swooper" answered "no." When I asked why I got looked at like I pissed in his cheerios. Wind is wind is wind. You're moving in the wind with the wind while flying your canopy. The wind has no effect on your canopy. Your perception of what the canopy is doing in reference to the ground changes with different wind conditions, though. I think people believe that the canopy dives longer into the wind due to their visual reference. Think about it while I brake down my thoughts. When you swoop in no winds you have the visual of the ground coming up to you as well as you moving across the ground. Its pretty easy to visualize your recovery arc as it arcs up and across the ground. Now in higher winds, lets say 15mph, you're not moving across the ground, but you still have the visual of the ground coming up. Your canopy is not diving more, your eyes are telling your brain that you are not moving forward across the ground in your recovery arc as you would in no wind. Similarly a lot of people (non-jumpers) think that you go back up when you deploy your parachute...Its all perception. Perception is reality for people, even if its not founded in a shred of truth.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meatbomb 0 #70 August 3, 2006 QuoteYour perception of what the canopy is doing in reference to the ground changes with different wind conditions, though. I think that's the key phrase...Perception... I often used to struggle to get this concept across when teaching Canopy Control to first-timers, but as soon as I started talking about perception, it seemed to be a lot easier. I also use the swimming in a current, and walking in a train scenario to varied effect. It's all about frames of reference, and our perceptions of them. On an aside...I really enjoy swooping in high winds sometimes...It can be great fun to almost hover for a while --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frost 1 #71 August 3, 2006 even though this is a clear HIJACK, its an interesting discussion. i will post a separate thread on this, ok?SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AggieDave 6 #56 July 31, 2006 Quotei think the katana will dive just as much as a vx. there is a possibility that it dives more. In my experience with the two canopies, the Katana loaded at 2.1 had a longer dive then the VX loaded at 2.4. YMMV.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flying_thomtom 0 #57 August 1, 2006 QuoteQuotei think the katana will dive just as much as a vx. there is a possibility that it dives more. In my experience with the two canopies, the Katana loaded at 2.1 had a longer dive then the VX loaded at 2.4. YMMV. is it not too much a 2.1 wingload for a katana, mine is loaded à 1.8 and I thought it was a good deal to have a good dive and still a good lift ? If I Can't Have a JAVELIN, I'm not jumping ! Gravity is our only engine, Speed is our only friend. Ils flottent, ils flottent tous en bas et bientot tu flotteras aussi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #58 August 1, 2006 Quoteis it not too much a 2.1 wingload for a katana, mine is loaded à 1.8 and I thought it was a good deal to have a good dive and still a good lift ? I personally felt like the Katana loaded at 2.1:1 was a bit overloaded. Others might like the canopy at that wingloading, I personally did not. I jumped another one loaded at 1.8:1 and I thought it was a really great wingloading for the canopy. Good performance, best canopy in its class (comparing it to the same sized Mamba, Vengence, Stiletto, Crossfire2 and Cobalt).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #59 August 2, 2006 What about Winds...........No One has mentioned what the winds are doing during these 500 ft 270's. I start my turns much higher on a no wind day than on a high wind day. I never stick with a standard height for all wind conditions. My 270 Hooks range from 500 feet on a smokin Windy Day to a 750 feet on a no wind / down wind day. Is it possible that Frost is at a DZ that consistently has higher winds. Altitude is also a factor. I noticed when I jumped in Tahoe or Montana that I needed to initiate my dives higher, or I'd be in the corner. Lastly..........Why is anyone comparing a 180 turn to a 270 turn, to a 360+ degree turn. I thought we were talking about 270's at 500 feet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #60 August 2, 2006 Harry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #61 August 2, 2006 Ian, maybe people turn lower in high wind conditions because they don't like getting pushed back by the wind so they rush their turns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #62 August 2, 2006 Quote Ian, maybe people turn lower in high wind conditions because they don't like getting pushed back by the wind so they rush their turns? That's probably one of the best insights I've heard in a while. Sometimes the obvious stares us hehe. I'm going to store that one away. My guess is that you're probably right on the money most of the time with that one. I'll have to amend my prior post say: Wind speed has ZERO effect on the initiation altitude of a turn, assuming the same rotation speed. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #63 August 3, 2006 QuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dlee 0 #64 August 3, 2006 i guess we know why you are called meatbomb!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dlee 0 #65 August 3, 2006 I have a crossfire 2 loaded 1.51 lbs/sqft. i start my turn between 450 and 500 ft. i am guessing you should go a little higher. I put two short movies on www.skydivingmovies.com both are called "270 not that interesting" one is 450ft the other is 470ft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #66 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. it does not change the way the canopy dives either, although your perception of things is different, the actual physical properties are the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #67 August 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHarry, Wind speed has ZERO impact on turn altitude. We can discuss the physics at the Farm when you guys are down, but I assure you it doesn't make one bit of difference to your turn height. Blues, Ian Provided you know how to keep your canopy diving I agree with you............You can get away with a lower turn in higher winds though. if you can get away with it in high winds, you can get away with it downwind/ crosswind/ or no wind.. it really has no effect. if you are coming to the farm, get ian to explain it to you, if he has trouble explaining it or you dont understand. come ask me and i will give it a shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #68 August 3, 2006 I think Scott Miller has a great way of explaining it (and other concepts too). I'm looking forward to taking his Essentials and Advanced classes again, especially to learn good ways to relay the information. IMO, any instructor (licensed or not) teaching canopy flight in any way should take his course. There are a lot of old myths out there that are put to rest, as well as a healthy dose of good information that is well relayed and structured. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #69 August 3, 2006 QuoteMO, any instructor (licensed or not) teaching canopy flight in any way should take his course. There are a lot of old myths out there that are put to rest, as well as a healthy dose of good information that is well relayed and structured. Yeah, I'm about tired of the bullshit about winds effecting your turning altitudes. I asked someone once "if you turn higher when facing into the wind, what about when you shoot a downwind course? Do you turn lower?" They "swooper" answered "no." When I asked why I got looked at like I pissed in his cheerios. Wind is wind is wind. You're moving in the wind with the wind while flying your canopy. The wind has no effect on your canopy. Your perception of what the canopy is doing in reference to the ground changes with different wind conditions, though. I think people believe that the canopy dives longer into the wind due to their visual reference. Think about it while I brake down my thoughts. When you swoop in no winds you have the visual of the ground coming up to you as well as you moving across the ground. Its pretty easy to visualize your recovery arc as it arcs up and across the ground. Now in higher winds, lets say 15mph, you're not moving across the ground, but you still have the visual of the ground coming up. Your canopy is not diving more, your eyes are telling your brain that you are not moving forward across the ground in your recovery arc as you would in no wind. Similarly a lot of people (non-jumpers) think that you go back up when you deploy your parachute...Its all perception. Perception is reality for people, even if its not founded in a shred of truth.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #70 August 3, 2006 QuoteYour perception of what the canopy is doing in reference to the ground changes with different wind conditions, though. I think that's the key phrase...Perception... I often used to struggle to get this concept across when teaching Canopy Control to first-timers, but as soon as I started talking about perception, it seemed to be a lot easier. I also use the swimming in a current, and walking in a train scenario to varied effect. It's all about frames of reference, and our perceptions of them. On an aside...I really enjoy swooping in high winds sometimes...It can be great fun to almost hover for a while --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #71 August 3, 2006 even though this is a clear HIJACK, its an interesting discussion. i will post a separate thread on this, ok?SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
