90,180 or 270

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I know some people in this sport and who regularly post on this website who would disagree with you saying that someone with lots of jumps who wants to do big turns would use a smaller canopy. This is definetly not always the case is a relatively dangerous way to approach it. It sounds to me like you're saying that if you want to do higher rotations on final, just go smaller with your wing.

I may have grazed over a point or two there. The idea is that if a jumper had sufficient experience, and was so inclined to swoop hard (as in big turns), they would jump a wing that would give them a margin for error. A wing such, that they would get through the turn, and complete their rotation with a good chunk of altitude to spare.

We all know that a Velo will dive in a straight line for a good two ro three hundred feet after the turn is completed. We also know that this dive can be aborted with plenty of room to sapre. This is the margin for error.

A guy loaded at 1.3 or 1.4, who is just learning to swoop, is a bad cantidate for setting up the big turn without that margin for error.

A guy with the experience, but who jumps a bigger wing, would do so because they don;t want to go that fast, and would make due with the 90 or 180 that would max out the wing.

I'm not suggesting or implying anything except what I said. I think a bigger canopy at a lower loading is a bad way to go if you want to do big turns. The end result of this should be that if such a canopy if appropriate for you, the big turn is not.

I guess a guy could go the other way, and see it as they just need a smaller wing and they are in big-turn town, but that would be stupid.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Present me with a valid SCIENTIFICALLY proven theory (or even just a theory) and i am willing to consider my point an error. Otherwise... it's just your opinion.

I'd say it's a pretty hard scientific fact that the lighter you load a canopy, the less altitude it will use up in a turn. As such, to do a turn, and have the canopy plane out at ground level, you will have to enter and exit your turn at a lower altitude than with a smaller canopy.

I guess my opinoin is that at that lower altitude, the smaller degree of turn is easier, less complex, and less prone to need aborting, which you won't really have time (altitude) to do anyway.

[frost 1]

Well, i wasnt questioning any of that... Surely, safety wise and ease of execution wise I agree with you and previous posters - smaller turns on bigger and lighter loaded canopies are better in that respect.

What I was questioning (and it's totally possible that we missed each others points alltogether) was a notion that a bigger and/or lightly loaded canopy wouldnt benefit from a longer time in a turn and that it wouldnt build up more speed from a 270 as it would from a 90 degree turn. My aurgument was that ANY object in gravity induced motion has a maximum (terminal) velocity. This object needs a certain amount of time to reach this terminal velocity. A 90 degree turn simply doesnt give the wing enough time to reach it.

Now, whether or not the BENEFIT of the bigger turn is worth the risk, is a completely different story. I'd even agree that the gain in speed might be minimal, making it even less worth the trouble, but I maintain that there WILL be a gain in speed from a turn bigger than 90 degrees.

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[Kimblair13 0]

Quote

Quit the bickering. Just stick to the 4, like I said. It's rad.

Word. Gotta love the "4".

[crazydiver 0]

Quote

The degree of the turn is far less important than the time spent in the turn.

This is true, but not necesarily the case for all canopies. I agree that the extra energy gained from multiple rotations is minimal compared to the difficulties. However, not all wings fly their most efficient in a dive with a slow carving turn hard on the front risers. Some do better with harness input. Some even do better with quick snap from riser turns. Flying the wing smoothly is even more key. A wing may not necesarily build up the most energy from a long dive on front risers.

Cheers,
Travis

[davelepka 4]

Quote

My aurgument was that ANY object in gravity induced motion has a maximum (terminal) velocity. This object needs a certain amount of time to reach this terminal velocity. A 90 degree turn simply doesnt give the wing enough time to reach it.

There's a couple factors at work here. A bigger canopy (for this discussion - bigger aka lightly loaded) in full flight is much closer, percentage wise, to its drag induced terminal velocity. This is due to the larger area presented to the wind, as well as the relatively smaller payload (aka jumper).

The jumper (aka provider of thrust) has less influence on the bigger wing, resulting in a lower DITV.

The other factor is the smaller jumpers influence on the risers. The bigger canopy will produce what is essentially too much lift too soon. As the speed builds, the low pressure area above the wing will pull the riser out of the jumpers hand, followed by pulling the canopy itself up into it (aka lift).

As a reference, for canopies not built and trimmed to dive, my Stiletto 107 @ 2.0, would begin to build significant riser pressure at around 270, it would be borderline unmanagable at 360, and a 450 required strong lats, and perfect technique. For this reason, I used the 270 for the most part. Keep in mind that this was at 2.0, and I had 2500+ jumps on Stiletto 107s.

Which brings me to the the other factor which is more circumstantial than scientific, the pilot. On a bigger canopy, going much beyond 180 or 270 will take strength and proper technique. A jumper with that technique, and the desire to use it, would simply be on a more appropriate wing for the task.

There may be shit hot, experienced swoopers going big on 150's, and I guess I have no problem with that. It's unlikely, but possible.

Here's an illustration of what I'm saying. Ever fly up behind to a student or similar sky barge without the other pilot seeing you? Sooner or later they'll do a little toggle whipping, and you'll notice you have to go from deep brakes to a lesser brake postiton to saty with them through their turn. The relevant point is that as the bigger canopy banks into the turn, you'll let begin to let your toggles up, but you only have to ease them up throught the first 90 or 120 degrees of the big canopies turn. Once they get that far around, their descent rate satbilizes, and will saty that way through several rotations.

To make this example more appropriate than a student canopy, I often find myself in close proximity to one of other camera flyers as we had back to the DZ. He jumps a Spectre 135 loaded around 1.4 or 1.5. He's a little toggle happy, and likes to do big toggle turns (1080 and up) to dump altitude and get down faster.

I notice that after the 270, he's not diving any faster at all. I can fly beside him in full flight, and know that we are realtive, but he's spinning like a top.

The biggger canopy offers VERY little return ona turn past 180, and thats reserved for those who really know how to extract the last 5% from the canopy, which brings me back to my poin that aguy who can get the last 5%, would just downsize anyway, and work on the last 5% of a faster canopy.

[CrazyL 0]

Quote

Wow! You really need to get that straightened out! YOU are responsible for ending up behind them and should never even start a turn if you don't have clear airspace to do so. If you are coming from above and behind someone, you have made a HUGE mistake!

Death comes from above and behind!

[CrazyL 0]

You got the right idea bro! Baby steps! Get used to the 90's, double fronts. As time performing these manuevers will increasingly make these manuevers second nature. Then combine the two moves closer together beginning higher. With each time you try a 'new trick' for landing, I believe it is good to plane out a little higher than you'd like, then as time performing this 'new trick' you will then come closer to your targeted area by using more effort and/or lowering your pinnacle point ,where you start your manuever. Give yourself plenty of room to overshoot your intended landing area.

[Chilly_Dk 0]

Word!
And especially the patience. It has become more common to have a desire to get into the PST at 200 jumps (joking, eh?)

It's all right to have butterflies in your stomach. Just get them to fly in formation.

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

how many jumps did you guys have before you started swooping?

there is never any exact number, I know that a lot of my aches and broken legs could have been avoided if I listen more and waited a while to start swooping....

Quote

I know i am a ways away, but just out of curiosity, what is a nice round number to start thinkin about practicing some 90's at altitude?

at altitude it is great to learn how your cnaopy flies with all inputs, but I would say try not to get into swooping just yet, I would say think against it in fact for righ tnow, but remember your invincible days are not too far off :-P

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[CrazyL 0]

Getting into swooping is like getting into BASE jumping. Be the ground crew, an observant for a while. I came from the 'banned hook turn days'. Having survived many lewd, flying idiot approaches and landings the acceleration and learning has continued without having downtime from injury or death. KnockOnWood. Part of my own approach since beginning skydiving has been about 'risk management'. Cardinal rule #1 Don't die, #2 Don't get injured. To avoid the pitfalls of rule #1 & 2 treat each crazy stunt as a stunt. Overcome the hazards than can kill you and injure you, once thought out thoroughly. Go on with the wickedness. Fortunately in the era we live in now there is much education available to pilots, which i believe is due to the accetptance that hookturns/swooping is actually a part of skydiving.Had hookturns not been banned back in the day(even though i was the all-time rule breaker)I imagine i'd either be dead or at the cutting edge of the swoop games. Somewhere along the way swooping was an unworthy cause to perform aerial tricks for others. Having been in swoop comps in the past I learned that I really love flying parachutes and the aerial tricks is truly for my own selfish enjoyment always has been.Nowadays it is fairly rare to hear the term 'hookturn', has been replaced with 'swooping'.

[dploi 0]

Quote

Quote

The degree of the turn is far less important than the time spent in the turn.

This is true, but not necesarily the case for all canopies. I agree that the extra energy gained from multiple rotations is minimal compared to the difficulties. However, not all wings fly their most efficient in a dive with a slow carving turn hard on the front risers. Some do better with harness input. Some even do better with quick snap from riser turns. Flying the wing smoothly is even more key. A wing may not necesarily build up the most energy from a long dive on front risers.

The statement still stands and I'll clarify. The time spent in the turn at the appropriate speed for your canopy and wingloading is less important than a specific degree of turn. This in regards to building speed for a swoop, not necessarily setup and/or safety. For sheer performance, the optimum degree of a turn will be determined by the amount of time you spend rotating your canopy at the best rate to build speed. Then factors like safety (traffic, comfy altitude, etc), and setup will give you a more repeatable and therefore overall "better" degree of turn.

[juggalo 1]

Who are you?? C 55555??
As of Feb 2006 the last C license listed was 35162
So who the --==- are you?
If you cannot post under your true self please don't.
brew

waving off is to tell people to get out of my landing area

[YISkyDive 0]

Haha- you brought this up in S&T and here? Geez man why are you so concerened with who I am You know how many jumps I got- and you know I got some C lisence so you obviosuly know not to care what I think, right? Its not that hard to grasp

[robap26 0]

After reading all the way through this thread I have forgotten most of the points that I wanted to make.
First off my favorite set-up is a 270. I also like to use the 360 by setting up for a 270 and then doing a 90 one way and then 360 back around. I often use this if I reach my set-up point high. I will use harness input for the first 90 so I don't build up too much riser pressure.

I think 270's are fine to do on any size canopy. They may not be any faster then the 180 on the bigger canopies but people still need to work on them before they downsize. I feel like if there are still things to be learned from a given canopy then you are not ready to downsize. Turns bigger then 270 are probably best done on canopies that will hold a dive. So I think a person should probably hold off on going big until they are jumping a high performance canopy at a fairly high loading and the 270 approach is like second nature to them.