2k5, the year in review

[davelepka 4]

I know last winter there were some lengthy threads regarding the state of canopy conrol, and how it related to Wl and training. The debates raged on over which was the answer, WL restrictions or improved training, with the consensus being that a combination of the two was needed. Either way, everyone agreed that there was a problem, and it needed fixing.

Fast forward to present day, and I'd have to say that we're no better off than we were a year ago. I haven't checked the stats, but I'm sure they don't look great next to the numbers for 2k4. What I do know is that there really has been very little change in the managment of WL or canopy control training.

This fucking sucks. On top of it all, I just got my bank statement, and the USPA officially has my $50 (again).

[superstu 0]

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Fast forward to present day, and I'd have to say that we're no better off than we were a year ago.

except today i think we have a better understanding of what is needed. last year this time this whole add 50#'s of wieght to get to 2.4+ was relatively new and most people didn't know what to think of it. now that we've seen the effects and realize the dangers associated with it, policies are being developed to help reduce the possiblities of injury or death. these policies/rules/whatever will most likely go into effect by next season i would assume.

check out http://www.worldswooping.com/agenda.htm if you haven't already. there is also a discussion here: http://canopypiloting.tempwebpage.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?post=3924;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ccowden 0]

Great attitude!

You actually think we are NO better off? You really think that there would have not been more deaths this season from landing accidents without the strides made? You actually think there has not been any changes made for safer canopy flight and education?

I agree we need to keep learning and we can still make it better, but I completely disagree that we are no better off now. There have been HUGE efforts made and awesome progress achieved, in my opinion. You talk like it is all in vain.

We will never eliminate all the deaths or injuries. That is just not possible. People make mistakes. But we can continue to educate and learn and make strides toward safer canopy flight. Without that, we would see MANY more deaths due to landing accidents than we saw this season. You are just looking at statistics, and not taking into account that there were probablt twice as many high performance canopy pilots out there this season as opposed to last. If you take stat for stat, number of pilots and swoops versus injuries and deaths, we probably DID have a better year.

[freakydiver 0]

No offense, but fifty aint shit - if you get my drift.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[davelepka 4]

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You actually think we are NO better off?

The 'we' I'm concerned about is skydiving in general. There have been no changes to the training or the WL situation. All of the posts last year agreed that these were the areas in need of attention. I still have no idea which area needs more attention, or how to blend them into a unified plan, but I am sure that SOME attention to these areas is needed.

Again, I didn't look at the stats, but I would guess that the numbers for open canopy incdents between '04 and '05 are very close. Combine that with the zero change to training and equipment selection, and yeah, I guess this no better than before.

Keep in mind that our (you and I) personal level of information or feelings about the situation means nothing here. Even every jumper who reads DZ.com is still just a portion of the community, and all they are seeing is some discussion between jumpers online.

The change needs to be clear and concrete, and come from the top. Get the USPA at make a move, and the DZO's will follow suit. They will pass it on to their instructional staff, who will take the ideas and guidelines and use them to make new skydivers. As jumpers retire (or frap in with open canopies), and newbies show up to replace them, the changes will 'infect' the population.

[superstu 0]

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The change needs to be clear and concrete, and come from the top

totally agree.

just something to think about though is that change is a slow process. if we change stuff too fast without thinking about it, researching it, and/ or testing out the new rules/policies, then we could actually do more harm than good. and i think that's what the 'higher-ups' in our community are trying to do now.

just my .02

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[chachi 0]

^ chris is 100% accurate when he says even maintaining the amount of deaths injuries would be a huge success. look at increased amount of people getting onto high performance platforms this year, the people that did large downsizes, and the amount of people moving onto a xbrace platform (team PD doesn't pay for itself).

some very standardized teaching methods when it comes to swooping have made a massive difference for sure. if the sport grows, the amount of high performance canopy pilots grows and the death / injury stays the same we are actually having a positive impact.

that said, it is never enough effort put towards safety, education, and coaching.

[davelepka 4]

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if we change stuff too fast without thinking about it, researching it, and/ or testing out the new rules/policies, then we could actually do more harm than good.

My question for the higher ups would be, "What harm would it do for every jumper to have gone through the equivalant of a two day canopy control course by the time they get their D license?"


I'm all for avoiding the knee-jerk reaction, but this well past that point. The trend with open canopy incidents has ben developing for YEARS. I can't see how adding a few requirements to the different licenses is going to do any harm.

By the time a jumper is seeking a license, they're hooked. Building in an hour or two of classroom time, and a hop n pop or three won't disillusion any newbies, especially not if the training is 'known' to be important, and part of making a 'real' skydiver.

[superstu 0]

couldn't agree with you more on your last post.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[davelepka 4]

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No offense, but fifty aint shit - if you get my drift

I really don't get your drift. Expand on it just a little.

I wouldn't mind the $50, if it looked like they were doing something productive with it. I'm sorry, but I could care less that there's a sexta-sep rudy eagle wing award, let alone needing to see a picture of a jumper getting one.

I know the insurance thing is there, and I guess thats good.

I know they do other things too at the USPA, but they do have people whose jobs are dedicated to safety and training. I almost cannot express how incorrectly biased the training is toward freefall, and away from canopy control.

[divnswoop 0]

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I almost cannot express how incorrectly biased the training is toward freefall, and away from canopy control.

Well, the same way the FAA is 15 years behind the skydiving world, the USPA is just a couple. We have people complaining all over the place about their $50, but how much do you think your regional director makes? Do you think it's worth their time to take 3-4 trips a year to meetings? Not to mention all the regular drama they have in their own region? Most of these people have other jobs/ business that probably makes them a living. I'm pretty sure (except a couple) nobody makes a living being a regional/national director. I'll tell you right now it's not a job I would want. (I would be happy to vote for you Dave!)

Have you ever sat in on a USPA meeting?(general question to everybody complaining about the USPA) Do you have any ideal of the topics they discuss? At the S&T meeting last year there were only 8-10 people in there who weren't on the board. Out of those, 3-4 were in there because of discussion that pertained to him. ANYBODY is allowed to attend these meetings AND participate. All those skydivers there....and how many sat in on meetings?
One observation I made last year in Jacksonville is there is a wide varity of people on the board. Some are new and on the cutting edge of instructing......some are pissed because we got rid of the S/L JM rating that's outdated. Even if we eventually get a course in place.....it will come back to:
1. Skydivers think they are getting ripped off by the USPA because they have to pay and sit in a canopy class.(Just like people whine about licenses. I've ran across a lot of people lately that have an A license with 500+ jumps)
2. People will continue to have their friends sign off on stuff to save them money.
3. Your not going to change people's minds about wingloading!!!!! PERIOD. Just in the last week I have heard of jumpers with the following:
300 jumps, WL a stilletto at 1.5
80 jumps, WL a pilot at 1.4
130 jumps, WL a stilletto at 1.6

People will continue to get their hands on these and in EVERY instance, they thought they were fine......I'm a good canopy pilot...."BLAH BLAH BLAH".
Most of them never sit to think what will happen if when they set up their ("perfect everytime") landing, somebody comes in and cuts them off or somebody runs out in front of them in the landing area.

[/rant]

[davelepka 4]

You bring up a good point about the meetings. I think it's time to look into the internet based video confrencing technology.

I'm not sure how it all works, but I'm guessing that the USPA and the directors both incur some costs in realtion to the meetings. It goes without saying that general members will pay their own way, which I'd guess is why so few attend.

Anyway, the cost of the video confrenece has to be less than the live meeting, so we could save everyone some moeny, and allow a better percentage of the membership to sit in on the meeting.

As far as the canopy control thing, I just see this as another year gone by, and the norm is still that beyond your student training, thats all you really need to know about canopy control.

The WL thing is a tough egg to crack, but I don't see why if a newbie is under the impression that being too aggressive with the Wl is both dangerous and uncool, that they will dial back their enthusiasm for downsizing.

If you start off telling the new guys that taking it easy is the way to go, the way everyone goes, then thats what they know. Sooner or later everyone will either have been taught to take it slow, or been jumping long enough to do whatever they want.

For the record, I think Sherry makes about $1.2 mil. a year for jumping, plus another $300,000 to $400,000 from the endorsements (Nike, American Express, etc).

[superstu 0]

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For the record, I think Sherry makes about $1.2 mil. a year for jumping, plus another $300,000 to $400,000 from the endorsements (Nike, American Express, etc).

who is sherry and is she single?

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[davelepka 4]

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who is sherry and is she single?

She the DZO, the regional director for the USPA, and she'll make 10 or 12 jumps per day, doing AFF, video, coaching, jumping with newbies, and swooping hew new 83 Katana. She's very busy. Her two kids and husband don't help either.

(The income figures are just estimates)

[Spizzzarko 0]

Dave,

There is a tool out there that can reall yhelp a lot of the younger jumpers out there. The CPC. You may say that the CPC is for swoopers to compete, but I think if it was done correctly, that you can use it for a canopy control coaching seminar every month. People dont need to be doing hook turns to run a pair of gates, and we all know that accuracy is what it is all about. Short of putting the ounger jumpers on classics, or foils, I just don't think we are going to properly teach them about accuracy (besides how many instructors today can tell you how to do a classic accuracy approach?). The CPC can teach accuracy on the canopy's that are popular today. We just need to get over the thought process that the CPC is only about swooping. I feel that the CPC is more about SAFE and accurate approaches. The way the CPC is set up, any one can compete. The CPC is a win-win situation for every one involved, and if you asked any competitor from this year, they will tell you the amount of knowledge they gained far out weighed any cost of competing. The bottom line is that people are going to learn from doing. You can sit on your ass and read bad posts by people who don't know what they are talking about or you can go out and jump. You might as well go and jump in the CPC. What do you have to lose? It's not like people are going to make fun of you.

Grant

[GQ_jumper 4]

You might as well go and jump in the CPC. What do you have to lose? It's not like people are going to make fun of you.

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Dave, don't listen to him, he makes fun of me all the time

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[davelepka 4]

We had a handful of competitors in the Ohio CPC who were not swooping, and were at lower WL (1.3 ish). They all agreed that it was harder than they thought, and had fun just trying to make the gates.

The problem with the CPC is the 500 jump minnimum. Even if you want to cut that in half to accomadate some newbies, you're still looking at 250 jumps.

In my opinion, by the time a jumper hits 250 jumps, they should have gone through (in addition to the canopy training already included in the AFF program) at least two 'mini-camps' consisting of an hour-ish of classroom, and a hop-n-pop or three.

The other trouble with the CPC is that anyone who would choose to enter is also the type who would seek out coaching on their own, or at least dedicate some of their time to canopy control with some high hop-n-pops or something.

By connecting the training to the licensing system, you force all of the other jumpers to pay attention to canopy control as well.

We all know that flying a canopy is a complicated situation. Add in higher WLs and the performance of modern canopies, and the minnimalist training you get in AFF is just plain not enough to serve the jumper much past the first 30 or 40 jumps. It shouldn't be optional to become an expert canopy pilot if you want to be an expert skydiver (aka D license).

As a sidenote, I do think the current FJC and AFF program training is good within the confines of the program. You don't need to be an expert canopy pilot to make one or ten supervised jumps. You want an A license? Crack the books and get serious about canopy control.

[davelepka 4]

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Dave, don't listen to him, he makes fun of me all the time

I hate to say it, but if he's doing it, there's a fair chance I'd make fun of you too.

Don't feel bad. Just keep jumping, and soon you'll learn to point and laugh with the best of them.

[Spizzzarko 0]

You know I have worked and worked with Dan, but the only way he responds is by ridicule... These damn kids these days. You buy them the books and you buy them the horse, but what does Dan do? He stands on the books and fucks the horse.

[chachi 0]

people will continue to learn better techniques as more and more guys keep going to compete at CPC / PRO level and come back to their dropzones to offer clinics and such.

[marks 0]

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people will continue to learn better techniques as more and more guys keep going to compete at CPC / PRO level and come back to their dropzones to offer clinics and such.

yup, so true.

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[GQ_jumper 4]

You know I have worked and worked with Dan, but the only way he responds is by ridicule

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Touching me inapropriately in the rigging loft doesn't count as working with me And that horse incident happened over spring break while I was really drunk, so it doesn't count.

don't be jealous that I learn faster than you Grant, you're old, it's just the way things work when you get senile!!

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[dharma1976 0]

Being on Brian Germains email list, I had the rgeat fortune of receiving and reviewing the WL Chart that he is submitting to the USPA to try to actually put some numbers to this situation...instead of complaining about it, lets work with each other to try to do something about it (and yes I fit into the WL chart that Brian is submitting)

I think if I recall correctly there are less injuries in sweden due to canopy overprogression than there are here, partially due I am sure to training and partially due to the wingloading laws. I have been involved in some discussions recently where we talked about the USPA ads for the reprints of the article "Femur is not a Verb" what we noticed about it is that instead of focusing on the issues of canopy control within the student progression they seemed to focus on Canopy COurses offered by people such as Scott Miller...now while I myself feel that these courses are a great boon to ones canopy skills, I do feel that we need to make begginer jumpers understand the concept of canopy flight a bit more before unleashing them upon us, when I think back to my first jumps as a newly released A licensee, I shudder and wish I had known more...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Spizzzarko 0]

Does Sweden do the same number of jumps as the US per year?

[bob.dino 0]

According to Brian on Skydive Radio #14, they do jump loads.