body shape and swooping

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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However, what about all the wanna-be's we'll see starting to wear the weights so they can be just like their much more experienced "heros?"

Well, after they destroy their ankle I think they'll figure it out.

... I see your point, but no matter how much preparation, thought and training you put into what you do, you can't expect to protect everyone else from themselves. Guys (and girls) at that competitive level, doing what they do for a living have a responsibility to themselves, their careers and their dreams in this sport. Can't further the sport if we always cater (and limit performance) to the lowest denominator. But this is dangerously close to becoming another BSR thread and I've got no interest in beating that horse again.
Understand your plight to educate newer jumpers, though. I, too, strove to hard to be like the PST competitors, far to early in my skydiving life and got off lucky.
As for the ankles, I worry less about those and more about the knees...that's what will endure the forces of the weights.
-C.

[AggieDave 6]

I definately agree with you!

As for the knees...don't worry, you can hurt them without wearing ankle weights...MCLs and ACLs tear easily if you drag a toe over uneven ground and you get your foot crooked...BAM it happens.

Anyways, I'm definately excited to see to what levels the pro's take my favorite disicipline of skydiving, the swoopy swoop.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[freeflypimp 0]

The only answer to all this maddness with wieghts is to have weight classes and not allow any lead at all. I witnessed people jumping with upto 80lbs of lead, now this is just stupid, it is no longer a competition of who can fly better but a competition of who will wear the most lead! Seriously guys someone is going to get seriously injured if they hit the ground with 60-80lbs of lead on. Blue skies and safe swoops.

Free Flight is the way of the future! Learn how and get on board the adventure train!!

[marks 0]

i agree dave. i hate wearing lead. so i dont ever do it. but before i goto a comp i will go on a diet and eat alot of chocolate and waffle house.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The only answer to all this maddness with wieghts is to have weight classes and not allow any lead at all. I witnessed people jumping with upto 80lbs of lead, now this is just stupid, it is no longer a competition of who can fly better but a competition of who will wear the most lead! Seriously guys someone is going to get seriously injured if they hit the ground with 60-80lbs of lead on. Blue skies and safe swoops.

Isn't it at least as dangerous for them to lose the lead and instead using a smaller canopy? And now you would have people downing a gallon of fluid (that's 8.8lbs) right before their jump.

Do you have enough competitors to fairly segment them by weight divisions? Maybe enough just to have an open class where anything goes, and then a "sane" class.
--

Now if you had 80lbs in some quick release form, could you jettison it after you've gotten the speed boost and gain appreciable distance?

[freeflypimp 0]

No, it is not dangerous to fly a smaller canopy, it only matters what wing loading you are flying. The idea of releasing the weight once you have gained speed is not very practical or useful seeing as how your swoop is only 3-4 seconds and the momentum of the weight is what carries you further. Either way, right now their may not be enough competitors for wieght classes but soon enough with all of the new up and coming swoopers in the CPC we may see weight classes before you know it! Peace.

Free Flight is the way of the future! Learn how and get on board the adventure train!!

[AggieDave 6]

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Either way, right now their may not be enough competitors for wieght classes but soon enough with all of the new up and coming swoopers in the CPC we may see weight classes before you know it! Peace.

Then guys like me would loose their advantage...

Well, since its been brought up, how would you divide weight classes and would there be an overall winner between all the weight classes? How would that be determined to maintain fairness between the advantages and disadvantages for higher weight/lower weight?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Isn't it at least as dangerous for them to lose the lead and instead using a smaller canopy?

No.

Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass * velocity squared.

When you have the same speed with more mass you have proportionally more energy. Empirically lighter people at the same wing loading as big people seem to bounce more often with minimal injuries. Heavier people seem to femur more often.

Kinetic energy is also varying with the square of speed.

Different sized canopies at the same wing loading have approximately the same speed in level flight although the differences increase at higher speeds (diving or at the start of a swoop) because drag is proportional to velocity squared.

On people of the same build surface area is a function of height squared while weight is a cubic function. Adding lead or fat changes weight but not drag. At the same wing loading smaller jumpers have more drag compared to the canopy than heavier ones.

While canopy height, width, and line length vary with size the line thickness doesn't. You get relatively more line drag on a smaller canopy.

So a smaller canopy will swoop slower than a larger one and have less energy.

Longer lines increase the recovery arc so the larger canopy would be going faster if you didn't get it to terminal. A longer recovery arc also makes it easier to start your swoop in the right place with less drag-inducing control input so you should be more likely to get it right.

Smaller canopies are more sensitive to control input at the same wing loading, although the people flying them should have developed the skill to handle that before doing anything high-speed.

[sight_burner 0]

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No.

Kinetic energy is 1/2 mass * velocity squared.

When you have the same speed with more mass you have proportionally more energy. Empirically lighter people at the same wing loading as big people seem to bounce more often with minimal injuries. Heavier people seem to femur more often.

Kinetic energy is also varying with the square of speed.

Different sized canopies at the same wing loading have approximately the same speed in level flight although the differences increase at higher speeds (diving or at the start of a swoop) because drag is proportional to velocity squared.

On people of the same build surface area is a function of height squared while weight is a cubic function. Adding lead or fat changes weight but not drag. At the same wing loading smaller jumpers have more drag compared to the canopy than heavier ones.

While canopy height, width, and line length vary with size the line thickness doesn't. You get relatively more line drag on a smaller canopy.

So a smaller canopy will swoop slower than a larger one and have less energy.

Longer lines increase the recovery arc so the larger canopy would be going faster if you didn't get it to terminal. A longer recovery arc also makes it easier to start your swoop in the right place with less drag-inducing control input so you should be more likely to get it right.

Smaller canopies are more sensitive to control input at the same wing loading, although the people flying them should have developed the skill to handle that before doing anything high-speed.

o'k now I'm just cofused. if you had a 90 s/f velo loaded at lets say 1.9 and the same jumper took a 103 velo with lead to the same wing loading of 1.9 why would people say the 103 would swoop farther??? wing loading is wing loading right! if you load a larger canopy the same as a smaller canopy wouldn't the larger canopy perform the same as the smaller canopy I.E wouldn't the 103 at 1.9 become the same as the 90 at 1.9 god somebody please help me with this question

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the thread is dead

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[PhreeZone 15]

I forsee an event that someone takes a nasty spill totally weighted down into water and needs a rescue team there to pull them out of the pond before the drown under the extra weight.

That and trying to exit something like the WFFC pond totally weighted down is a very stupid idea due to its landing area.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Swooopa-x 0]

I'm with you s_b.
Wow!!! My brain is numb...
I'll read it again slllloowww but pleez ... somebody help clarify.
Really do wanna get my head around this

Tell me like I'm three

People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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o'k now I'm just cofused. if you had a 90 s/f velo loaded at lets say 1.9 and the same jumper took a 103 velo with lead to the same wing loading of 1.9 why would people say the 103 would swoop farther???

Under the bigger canopy cross-sectional density is higher, the canopy+pilot have a higher terminal velocity, and it takes longer to slow down. Simple physics. It's also easier to swoop the big canopy faster because the longer lines make for a longer recovery arc.

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wing loading is wing loading right! if you load a larger canopy the same as a smaller canopy wouldn't the larger canopy perform the same as the smaller canopy

Approximating speed purely as a function of wing loading only works for larger canopies, with lower wing loadings, and without speed inducing maneuvers. With a larger canopy the pilot makes up a smaller part of the frontal area so sectional density is less affected. Drag increases with the square of velocity - going 60 MPH has 16X the drag as going 15 MPH. The effect of drag is much more pronounced at higher speeds from wing loading and front riser use.

[superstu 0]

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wing loading is wing loading right! if you load a larger canopy the same as a smaller canopy wouldn't the larger canopy perform the same as the smaller canopy

if you look on PD's website under their education section you'll find a lot of answers to these types of questions. infact they specifically answer this question.
They state that it is dangerous for smaller jumpers to downsize too quickly because a stietto 170 loaded at 1.3 will fly completely different then a stiletto 120 loaded at 1.3, taking into acount same conditions. the smaller parachute will be twitchier, dive longer, and so on, if i read/remember that correctly.
PD's website has a lot of good info that i think a lot of people don't read but it's there, so check it out.
here's the website:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[kelpdiver 2]

whew - we could spend all day studying your post! Esp for us airchair types.

I think you're saying that the practice of upsizing with more lead will likely give better results, but at a higher risk. Agreeing with the statement that the pursuit of top performance may get way out of joint with safety concerns.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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The only answer to all this maddness with wieghts is to have weight classes and not allow any lead at all. I witnessed people jumping with upto 80lbs of lead, now this is just stupid, it is no longer a competition of who can fly better but a competition of who will wear the most lead! Seriously guys someone is going to get seriously injured if they hit the ground with 60-80lbs of lead on. Blue skies and safe swoops.

I totally agree as well, Dave. For what it's worth, I have never worn more than 12 pounds of lead to swoop, and that was because I was wearing it for the four-way jumps I was on. I am not going to ever win a pro meet at my age. I am extremely reluctant to put lead on for the sake of going faster. I commend those with bodies strong enough to take the punishment and the will to do whatever it takes to win. I will stay content to swoop at wingloads between 2.05 and 2.2, make the gates everytime, and finish in the middle third.

Chuck