racer42 0 #1 November 2, 2004 This is most likely a rehash but indulge me for a moment. I had the snot slapped out of me by a Sabre 2 170, loaded at 1.3. I came out of a sit at 5k and tracked away got big and opened at 3k with insta- canopy. I have been flying a Hornet 190 and have been spanked once or twice due to sloppy packing, but I have never experienced an opening like this. The first 5 jumps on this canopy were perfect. Nice opening, great fun to fly and then wham!!! What am I missing? Personally I suspect a bad pack, but I am open to constructive input. I am reasonably confident of my body position and speed but hey...I'm listening.L.A.S.T. #24 Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team Electric Toaster #3 Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor Co-Founder Team Happy Sock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #2 November 2, 2004 There is not enough information here to do anything other than speculate. But hey? What the hell? Line Dump? Loose stows? Stows too short? Bad rubber bands resulting in several breaking prematurely? Slider misplacement on packing? (Should be quartered and pulled slightly forward towards the nose.) PC too big? Bad body position? Bad line trim? Rarified air molocules? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #3 November 2, 2004 didn't stop tracking when you deployed? or maybe... it just happens once in a blue moon (hi bonnie) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racer42 0 #4 November 2, 2004 OK...I'm gonna go with the rarefied air molecules and the blue moon theory. But I'm thinking it was slider placement. Just checking to see if this a chronic problem or again, a blue moon phenomenon. Thanks KevL.A.S.T. #24 Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team Electric Toaster #3 Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor Co-Founder Team Happy Sock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #5 November 3, 2004 (hi Drew!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #6 November 3, 2004 that won't be the last time that canopy knocks the crap out of you...why do you think they kept the name "sabre" in their new canopy! really, though, i've known many sabre2 jumpers to get their socks knocked off once in a while. just jump it about 9 times, give it to a friend for a jump, jump it 9 times, give it to another friend for a jump, etc., and you won't have any more hard openings on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 November 3, 2004 Quote that won't be the last time that canopy knocks the crap out of you...why do you think they kept the name "sabre" in their new canopy! I don't agree with that anymore with the simple fact that *any* canopy can and eventually will give you a hard opening. The only hard openings I have ever seen or had on any Sabre2 was when the slider wasn't packed all the way up or the canopy was getting pretty far out of trim.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #8 November 3, 2004 QuoteI don't agree with that anymore with the simple fact that *any* canopy can and eventually will give you a hard opening. The only hard openings I have ever seen or had on any Sabre2 was when the slider wasn't packed all the way up or the canopy was getting pretty far out of trim. Sorry, but you're not correct in saying that every canopy "will" give you a hard opening; I've known many people with many hundreds of jumps on their canopies with soft openings 100% of the time. And as to your claim that packing or trim are the only reasons a sabre2 can open poorly, I know a few jumpers who have had problem openings ever since they've had their canopies, with many people trying all the packing tricks with no success. With your 4 short years in the sport, your opinion is biased because you're obviously one of PD's lemmings. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #9 November 3, 2004 Sorry, but Dave doesn't jump PD. What he meant was not that every canopy will eventually give you a hard opening; just that every canopy can give you a hard opening. That is a simple fact. Sloppy, short stows or an uneven body position at pull time can easilly cause line dump. You dump your lines and your canopy is going to smack you.....period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #10 November 3, 2004 I've got somewhere in the area of 200 jumps on my Sabre2 and no hard openings. That isn't to say I don't have other opening problems, but almost every opening is soft. I've had some firmer openings, but nothing like a typical opening on my old PD 9-cell. And it doesn't seem to matter how sloppy I pack it either. Maybe I'll get smacked on my next jump, but hard openings are just not something the sabre2 is known for. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReyNier 0 #11 November 3, 2004 just out of interest because of a symilar case: What kind of lines are you using? 550 micro or 825 micro? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #12 November 3, 2004 The only hard opening I've had on my Sabre 2 was due to a bad pack job (mine). I don't pack near as much as I should, although I am working on doing it more. I’ve found consistent soft openings as long as the nose is pushed in (not rolled) and the slider is properly quartered. The one pack job where I did not do these things, I got smacked to all living hell. I really think people want to compare the history of hard openings of the old Sabre to the Sabre 2, but they really are totally different canopies and only share part of a name. In my limited experience the only hard openings I’ve seen on a Sabre 2 were due to poor pack jobs. Given my limited packing experience I’ve been pleasantly surprised at how forgiving it is of sloppy pack jobs as long as the nose is pushed in and the slider properly quartered."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racer42 0 #13 November 3, 2004 Not entirely sure but my guess is 825. Appreciate everyone's input. Looking back now immediately after the opening I'm almost positive it was the slider positioning. You can be sure I'll be reeal careful about that from now on. Thanks KevinL.A.S.T. #24 Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team Electric Toaster #3 Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor Co-Founder Team Happy Sock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weegegirl 2 #14 November 4, 2004 Two years and at least 50 chiropractic visits ago, I had the world's hardest opening on a Sabre 2. I was demo-ing a container and they insisted on having their packers pack the main. I suspect packer error. But God damn, it turned me off of a Sabre 2. I was dangling 1/2 concious under canopy trying to "re-group", convincing myself life wouldn't be that bad as a cripple. I really thought I was paralyzed. A trip to the ER diagnosed me with severe whiplash - all of my neck and spine completely compressed. Consistent visits to the chiropractor is all that would relieve the pain. Just my experience. Most likely the pack job. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mgerra28 0 #15 November 4, 2004 I've put 600 jumps on my s2, i bought it with 100 jumps no slammers. Its slammed me once, saw stars. Thats the only complaint i've had. I've spoke with a few people who have sabre2's everyone of them has had a slammer but thats it. So my theory is, let a "friend" jump the hell out of it till it slams the crap out of them. Then your free to jump the canopy..hehe.http://www.skydivethefarm.com don't sweat the small stuff, in fact don't sweat at all,, you get smelly!! ORFUN #2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Widgeon 0 #16 November 4, 2004 I don't have many jumps, but, my very first pack job hit me so F-ing hard that I could barely breath for the remainder of the canopy ride. Was probably line dump from bad body position, but I suspected the slider was positioned improperly. I got alot of people to show me their packing methods for slowing down openings and spoke at length to Kolla at PD. They all said, the slider is the most important thing to pay attention to in regulating the speed of the openings. Not only must it be seated firmly against the slider stops and quartered evenly, but make sure the center of the slider is pushed as far down inside your pack job as possible. Roll the nose 4 and 4 on a Sabre and pay attention to the slider, it'll open like a Spectre. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #17 November 4, 2004 a lot of diversity of opinion regarding rolling the nose, specifically on ZP friend of mine that worked for the sunshine factory, worked as a test jumper, rigger, etc. etc. etc. etc. said they tried doing all kinds of different things with the slider and nose, rolling all 9, rolling 4 and 4 and leaving the middle out, rolling and pulling the slider a bit more towards the nose, all that, and it all came down to cup and quartering the slider. He swears against rolling the nose on ZP material stating that "If you're good enough to keep that nose rolled while packing a zp canopy, you're good enough to do a pack that won't slam you" I've heard (and experienced) that if you're going to roll on ZP, it's generally a better idea to roll all 9. The reasoning behind it is that since your roll has a good chance of comming out, one side can easily come out if you have it rolled 4 and 4 and it'll give you a jerky off-heading opening. rolling all 9 gives you less of that. now....personally, if I don't roll all 9 and then pull the nose side of the slider out a little bit, I get slammed all to hell, but I Have tired ZP L8er BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #18 November 4, 2004 Not really replying to you GG, but your questions address most of the issues brought up in the thread. QuoteLine Dump? Lots of debate in the past on this one. Line dump only really causes a slammer if it includes the locking stowes, which is really bag strip/bag dump. If the canopy is out of the bag before line stretch, then it will open seriously hard, to the extrent of damage, injury, or even death. QuoteLoose stows? Closely related to the line dump issue. If the locking stowes alone are tight enough to get the bag to line stretch before the canopy comes out, they are not really an issue other than possibly causing line twist. QuoteLoose stows? See above. The locking stowes are really the key issue. QuoteBad rubber bands resulting in several breaking prematurely? Again, really a line twist issue unless it involves the locking stowes. Having the bag at line stretch before the canopy gets out is what is really important. QuoteSlider misplacement on packing? (Should be quartered and pulled slightly forward towards the nose.) Here is a primary culprit. The slider. I'll add that keeping it tight to the stops is critical to controlling the opening. Can't tell you how many times I've heard a jumper complain about openings and I'll watch them pack only to see them become very careless with the slider during the cocooning part of the pack and then the lay down and stack into the bag. Quarter it, push it all the way down into the canopy, then pull the nose quarter out over the nose of the canopy and then make sure it stays there! QuotePC too big? Only at the extremes. Zp vs F111 is also a consideration. Miss matching here seeems to be the difficult to explain occassional rogue slammer, not the 'here we go again" issue. QuoteBad body position? This can contribute to variety of opening issues. Get some vid and try to confirm or rule it out. Line twist will crop up here, line overs can sneek in, but are more usually associated with bad packing. Spinning mals, broken lines and torn canopies are my picks here, along with the slammer. QuoteBad line trim? Would need to be really bad. It is easy enough to get checked. I've oddly enough experienced better openings on several canopies as the trin gets near to the end of its' recommended life span. My Jedei 136 comes to mind. QuoteRarified air molocules? I'm very fussy about my air molecules and only use hose of the highst quality. I spare no expense and use them at will. Sloppy packing is not really a big deal unless it involves being careless with the slider placement and or the lines. Avoid line-over type mistakes, tension knots and a loose slider. If you have a consistent slammer, contact the manufacturer. They may help. Some may even have you send it in for them to jump and evalute. Some lemons do get out there. alanalan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #19 November 4, 2004 Rolling the nose is for an orginal sabre. Rolling the nose on a Sabre2 will slam the shit out of you, atleast that's what happened last time I saw someone try it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 November 4, 2004 I roll the nose on my Sabre2 and do not get slammed. I also pack very quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #21 November 4, 2004 Quote I roll the nose on my Sabre2 and do not get slammed. I also pack very quickly. Awesome. I guess the folks I've seen roll the nose of their Sabre2 were screwing something else up and was getting slammed. Do you think it might have something to do with your wingloading and size of the canopy? Most of what I've seen have been on Sabre2 120s and higher, mainly 170s and 190s.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #22 November 4, 2004 From my experience; Stuff the nose 1/2 way back, pull the slider out a couple of inches in front of the nose and roll the tail really! tight! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #23 November 4, 2004 i put some jump on the sabre2 135... the openings were incredible. I didn't roll the nose or anything... I "T"ed the slider and threw it in the bag. Flawless openings every single time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #24 November 4, 2004 QuoteQuarter it, push it all the way down into the canopy, then pull the nose quarter out over the nose of the canopy and then make sure it stays there! You've probably already thought of this but I just thought, since it sounds kinda like you mean pull the nose quarter way forward, that I'd throw something out for us Newbie types that may have thought something different than you meant. the friend of mine that was a test jumper warned me heavily about a part of this. He stated that the idea of doing this was to get the nose to inflate slower by doing that however, he also said that a risk of doing that is that you could pull the nose quarter too far and make the quartering uneven, sometimes pulling too much of the tail quarter towards the middle and causing the air to rush past the slider, slamming it open. He said it should work some of the time, but if you happen to pull too much...be ready for it to get you. Personally, I do like to pull it forward, but just enough until I feel a little bit of tension BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #25 November 7, 2004 See this thread... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1332630#1332630 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
