flyuke 0 #1 March 26, 2004 Both were talked of as the perfect canopy between stiletto and velocity-- so which one is better? Apart from airlocks is there any difference in performance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #2 March 26, 2004 QuoteSo which one is better? They are very similar, the best answer is to demo them both and see which you like better. The people who I know who've jumped both were split 50/50 in their preferences. Everyone loved both canopies but there was just something that drew them to one over the other. I kept trying to find out what people thought made the Katana different then the Vengeance but no one could really say. Seems the Katana is lighter on the riser and toggle pressure and a little faster in the turns. I really wanted to know if there was much of a difference too as I was getting ready to order a new canopy. I wanted to know if it was worth waiting around for the Katana 135 to be released or if I should just go ahead and order a Vengeance 135. As no one could really point to why one was better then the other I went ahead and ordered a Vengeance. I'm still on the list for a Katana demo however, with a little luck the 135 will be released soon and I can try it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hkf 0 #3 March 26, 2004 QuoteThey are very similar Having jumped both, and now own a Katana I have to disagree about them being very similar. In terms of which is better, it depends what you want from a canopy. Like SkydiveMO said demo them both and see which you like the best. I've done 60 on the Katana now and find it to be totally awesome, and it gets better with every jump as I get to know it better. The guys from xl who were jumping the pre production katanas were saying they could swoop almost as far as their velociies. PD did alter the trim to tame them a bit before they went to market, but this canopy is much closer to a velocity than it is to a stiletto. I would agree that riser pressure is lighter, and turns are faster. The Katana dives more than a vengeance. You also get a really cool Katana bag with all new Katanas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #4 March 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo which one is better? I really wanted to know if there was much of a difference too as I was getting ready to order a new canopy. I wanted to know if it was worth waiting around for the Katana 135 to be released or if I should just go ahead and order a Vengeance 135. As no one could really point to why one was better then the other I went ahead and ordered a Vengeance. I'm still on the list for a Katana demo however, with a little luck the 135 will be released soon and I can try it out. If your going to compare them then you should throw another PD made canopy in the mix as well, the Samurai. they are made by PD for Big Air Sportz unless you get a signature series. I liked the Samurai's openings much better then the Vengenance and it seemed to be better behaved in the air regarding general flight characteristics. I have no jumps on the Katana so I cant compare. But if those are the two your considering you should toss the Samurai in there as well..... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mysky 1 #5 October 9, 2004 I know this thread is a little outdated but I figured I could give a little input into this area. I own the following canopies so I can help you out with my opinion on them. I have a Vengeance 120 and 135, Velocity 103 and 96, and a Katana 120. I weigh 200lbs for an exit weight so that might give you an idea of wing loading and performance on each of the canopies. Out of all these canopies the Katana 120 and Velocity 103 are my absolute favorite. The Katana is one of the funnest canopies I have ever owned. The Vengeance is a good canopy but in comparision to the Katana does not hold a candle. I can get a much better landings on the Katana then on the Vengeance and I can even come close to swoops with the Katana vs. The Velocity but the Velocity still takes the cake. The openings on the Katana vs. the Vengeance are about the same and a little bit smoother on the Vengeance although I only have about 60 jumps on the Katana vs 350-400 on the Vengeance so I'm still trying little things here and their to get the Katana to pack up right. All in all I have to say the Katana has an amazing feel to it. I can't put my finger on it but compared to all my other canopies it is my absolute favorite and the one I now find myself jumping the most. But hey, try them all out and you be the judge. Many friends who have my similar canopies also agree that their is something about the Katana the is just pure greatness. I haven't been so excited about a canopy since my first Sabre 10 years ago! There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those that know how to count, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #6 October 9, 2004 I put several jumps on a Katana and was surprised at how disapointed I was. First, it opened like crap. It hunted all over the place and did a 360 half the time. It did turn nice and fast, but didn't know when to stop! I hadn't jumped a canopy with this much over-steer since the Diablo (which REALLY had a mind of its own). Landings were good, but I was really thinking that by now the "latest and greatest" would open like a dream, but it clearly doesn't. I'm still shopping... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #7 October 10, 2004 QuoteI put several jumps on a Katana and was surprised at how disapointed I was. First, it opened like crap. It hunted all over the place and did a 360 half the time. It did turn nice and fast, but didn't know when to stop! I hadn't jumped a canopy with this much over-steer since the Diablo (which REALLY had a mind of its own). Landings were good, but I was really thinking that by now the "latest and greatest" would open like a dream, but it clearly doesn't. I'm still shopping... What size Katana? What wingloading? How many jumps was "several"? I ask that because it took a while for me to sort out the packing/body position for best openings. I have found that besides being stable and symmetric, I have better openings when I relax in the harness and don't fight the canopy through the opening. Since I went down from a 120 to a 107, my openings have been more consistent and soft, yes, very soft! Just today I was commenting that this 107 I have now has been opening like a crossfire. I loved my 120, but I'm even loving the 107 more(w/l between 1.78 and 1.93). I don't know if it is a wingloading issue or a scaling issue, but I've jumped two different KA120's and two different KA107's and the 107's consistently open better. I will likely sell my 120 and buy another 107. If great openings are your priority, get a Crossfire. If canopy flight and landings are more of a priority, get a Katana. Oh, and read the Katana reviews in the gear section, that might help. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #8 October 11, 2004 They are extremely similar in construction minus the air locks. I have jumped both, however I jumped the vengenace loaded many times at 1.6 wl and once at 1.8 (max placarded w/l). I have jumped the katana a few times loaded at 2.0. The katana opened similarly but with out the off heading surge that I have experienced and many reported on the vengeance. both dive very hard but at 1.8 the vengenace will pull out of double fronts on a dive, albeit it is a much longer dive than a stilleto and similar to an FX. The katana (107 loaded at 2.0) stayed in double fronts forever after a very hard dive, until speed bled off, and so is more forgiving in a turn initiated too high. I thought the katana performed like a tweaked out vengenace with out the bad tendencies of the vengeance. both are good however the katana is pretty expensive and it is easy to get a cheap used vengeance. You can probably get a slightly better swoop out of a katana since it is easier to reach top speed, either canopy is limited by their non cross braced inefficiences. I liked both very much, have a vengeance as my back up canopy, but would prefer a katana if given the choice ramon."Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #9 October 12, 2004 The Katana was a 120 loaded at 1.65. I put around 12 jumps on it. I don't want to have to "sort out" packing and body position to tame a twitchy canopy's behavior. I've been doing this a long time and I don't think I have any issues with those things. I've jumped plenty of canopies that perform very well that open much better. I guess from some people's standpoint, if you are that determined to jump a particular kind of canopy then you'll make whatever concessions you have to just to make it work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hkf 0 #10 October 12, 2004 QuoteI hadn't jumped a canopy with this much over-steer since the Diablo Think this ones like the openings really, if you think it's worth it you adapt. I really noticed it at first, but don't even notice it now. Must be stopping on heading totally sub-consciously becouse if I sit here and think about it I don't know how I stop it. Think it's mostly harness! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #11 October 12, 2004 I jumped the Katana 107 at 1.65:1 and the 120 at 1.47:1, each about 8-10 times. I found them to open a bit softer and more on-heading than my Stiletto, but not as on-heading as a Samurai or Nitro. The opening is slightly longer than I like, wheras my Stiletto has been more like I want, and the Nitro was perfect. I didn't particularly take note of the oversteer on toggles, as it is no more than the Stiletto I've been jumping. I wasn't totally happy with the stability of the front riser performance, but pressure was light. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #12 October 12, 2004 I've heard the Nitro opens really nicely. Did it fly well also? Maybe I'll look into a demo. They also have a faster canopy, the Blade. Know anything about how it opens? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #13 October 13, 2004 I don't know about the Blade. The Nitro was all-around very nice. Bill Von wrote a review about a month ago, and I agree with what he said. The only thing I didn't like about the Nitro was the pack volume. They use that bulky non-slick finish fabric. The 108 started packing maybe the size of a Stiletto 120. By the time I did 15 jumps and picked up a lot of Perris dust, it was almost as tight in the bag as my (dust free) Stiletto 135. Same class as a Stiletto, but openings were more on-heading, a bit more flare, not much oversteer after toggle turns. The PA Nitron is essentially the same canopy as the Nitro, but made with the slick material, so it packs the same volume as similarly sized Stilettos or Katanas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #14 October 13, 2004 QuoteThey also have a faster canopy, the Blade. Know anything about how it opens? Like an absolute dream. I was very impressed with the Blades openings. Beezy Shaw (posts here) can hook you up with a demo. edit: the username to look up is beezyshaw Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #15 October 13, 2004 QuoteThe Katana was a 120 loaded at 1.65. I put around 12 jumps on it. I don't want to have to "sort out" packing and body position to tame a twitchy canopy's behavior. Like I said before, I think the Katana openings are sensitive to wingloading and you might experience better openings on the 107 like I did, without changing packing techniques or body position. (Of course, only if you feel comfortable at a wingloading around 1.8) ***I guess from some people's standpoint, if you are that determined to jump a particular kind of canopy then you'll make whatever concessions you have to just to make it work. It's not a matter of determination or concessions, it's simply an opinion. I prefer the way a Katana flies over anything else. I chose that characteristic to be of more importance than opening characteristics. Also like I said, if openings are of the upmost importance to you, than there are better choices than a Katana. If you find a canopy that is perfect in every way, let us know. If I haven't jumped it yet, I will. I certainly won't label your opinions as concessions though. And you said you were dissapointed with the Katana, what do you normally jump? (You're profile isn't complete and you just registered a few days ago) What other canopies have you jumped that you are comparing it to to have such an opinion? And what type of characteristics are you looking for in a canopy? The Katana is a "high performance" canopy and is not for everyone. peace lewhttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 October 13, 2004 QuoteIt's not a matter of determination or concessions, it's simply an opinion. He's got a point. People make concessions all the time. PD Lightnings have a reputation for hard openings and hard landings. SOw hy do people jump them? Because they are the standar everyone uses. The Triathlon CRW canopy opens nicer and performs well (check out what the Russians did with it) but it's not as widley used in the US. Why? Because people will make the concession to fly a Lightning as it's what all the other US CRW dogs fly. Now the concession to do so isn't misguided as the Lightning flies REALY well as a CRW main, and is capable of some amazing things. That type of logic can be applied to almost any canopy on the market. I recently gave up flying one main because I could not bring myself to make the concession in the openings department despite the canopy flying really well. IMO the KAtana is a great flying canopy. Lands well, is fun to fly, has as much performance as most jumpers can ever use. I don't like the openings, the are not as nice as some other canopies I've jumped. If opening rank higher on MY list of important items than other options then I shouldn't make the concession to fly that canopy just because it's "the new toy on the market".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #17 October 13, 2004 QuoteAnd you said you were dissapointed with the Katana, what do you normally jump?...What other canopies have you jumped that you are comparing it to to have such an opinion? And what type of characteristics are you looking for in a canopy? The Katana is a "high performance" canopy and is not for everyone.*** I jumped a Stilleto 120 for a long time. It was really the only choice for performance back in its heyday. But after chopping it for the 3rd time I'm done with it. I hear too many people with hundreds and hundreds of jumps on the same canopy without malfunctions to continue on with the track record of this canopy. I've demo'd Sabre2, Pilot, Safire2 and found the openings very acceptable on all of those, but all 3 seem a little slower and mid-performance. So, what would be a perfect choice for me would be equal or better performance than the Stilleto with openings as good as some of the mid-performance canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flow 1 #18 October 13, 2004 QuoteSo, what would be a perfect choice for me would be equal or better performance than the Stilleto with openings as good as some of the mid-performance canopies. Crossfire2? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wuffo 1 #19 October 13, 2004 QuoteCrossfire2? *** I've kinda decided against doing business with those guys because of their reputation for making themselves scarce when it comes to anything you need from them, like your canopy when you're supposed to get it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #20 October 13, 2004 Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. Give BeezyShaw a PM he'll hook you up. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #21 October 13, 2004 Don't leave the Samuari out of your search either. BigAir Sportz is a great company to work with in my experiences.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #22 October 13, 2004 I'd love to be able to recommend the canopy but I've yet to get my hands on one - demo's are hard to find and I don't know anyone at any of the dz's I jump at jumping one. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 291 #23 October 13, 2004 Quote I jumped a Stilleto 120 for a long time. It was really the only choice for performance back in its heyday. But after chopping it for the 3rd time I'm done with it. I hear too many people with hundreds and hundreds of jumps on the same canopy without malfunctions to continue on with the track record of this canopy. I have over 1200 jumps on my Stiletto 135, with no malfunctions. I haven't had a single line twist after about the first 80 jumps, maybe 3 times before that. At first, I wasn't keeping my shoulders level during deployment. The Samurai was nice, more natural on front risers than anything else I've jumped (Xaos21, Katana, Nitron, Stiletto, Hurricane). Its openings were a bit firm for me, but that could likely be fixed by tweaking the slider size or adding a pocket. The Samurai didn't seem to have quite the flare of the Katana, but the proper technique is less similar to my usual canopy than is that for the Katana, so I probably didn't have the Samurai dialed in as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #24 October 13, 2004 My Katana openings are soft, consistent, and dead-on heading, and I love the way it flies and dives. However, I'm also loading it at 2:1, which is, as I understand it, the sweet spot for this canopy. What I hear more and more is that the Katana doesn't like to be too underloaded."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wuffo 1 #25 October 13, 2004 Quote Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. *** I've exchanged a couple of emails with them and a demo is on the way. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
flow 1 #18 October 13, 2004 QuoteSo, what would be a perfect choice for me would be equal or better performance than the Stilleto with openings as good as some of the mid-performance canopies. Crossfire2? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #19 October 13, 2004 QuoteCrossfire2? *** I've kinda decided against doing business with those guys because of their reputation for making themselves scarce when it comes to anything you need from them, like your canopy when you're supposed to get it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #20 October 13, 2004 Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. Give BeezyShaw a PM he'll hook you up. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #21 October 13, 2004 Don't leave the Samuari out of your search either. BigAir Sportz is a great company to work with in my experiences.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #22 October 13, 2004 I'd love to be able to recommend the canopy but I've yet to get my hands on one - demo's are hard to find and I don't know anyone at any of the dz's I jump at jumping one. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites headoverheels 291 #23 October 13, 2004 Quote I jumped a Stilleto 120 for a long time. It was really the only choice for performance back in its heyday. But after chopping it for the 3rd time I'm done with it. I hear too many people with hundreds and hundreds of jumps on the same canopy without malfunctions to continue on with the track record of this canopy. I have over 1200 jumps on my Stiletto 135, with no malfunctions. I haven't had a single line twist after about the first 80 jumps, maybe 3 times before that. At first, I wasn't keeping my shoulders level during deployment. The Samurai was nice, more natural on front risers than anything else I've jumped (Xaos21, Katana, Nitron, Stiletto, Hurricane). Its openings were a bit firm for me, but that could likely be fixed by tweaking the slider size or adding a pocket. The Samurai didn't seem to have quite the flare of the Katana, but the proper technique is less similar to my usual canopy than is that for the Katana, so I probably didn't have the Samurai dialed in as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #24 October 13, 2004 My Katana openings are soft, consistent, and dead-on heading, and I love the way it flies and dives. However, I'm also loading it at 2:1, which is, as I understand it, the sweet spot for this canopy. What I hear more and more is that the Katana doesn't like to be too underloaded."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wuffo 1 #25 October 13, 2004 Quote Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. *** I've exchanged a couple of emails with them and a demo is on the way. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ianmdrennan 2 #20 October 13, 2004 Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. Give BeezyShaw a PM he'll hook you up. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #21 October 13, 2004 Don't leave the Samuari out of your search either. BigAir Sportz is a great company to work with in my experiences.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #22 October 13, 2004 I'd love to be able to recommend the canopy but I've yet to get my hands on one - demo's are hard to find and I don't know anyone at any of the dz's I jump at jumping one. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #23 October 13, 2004 Quote I jumped a Stilleto 120 for a long time. It was really the only choice for performance back in its heyday. But after chopping it for the 3rd time I'm done with it. I hear too many people with hundreds and hundreds of jumps on the same canopy without malfunctions to continue on with the track record of this canopy. I have over 1200 jumps on my Stiletto 135, with no malfunctions. I haven't had a single line twist after about the first 80 jumps, maybe 3 times before that. At first, I wasn't keeping my shoulders level during deployment. The Samurai was nice, more natural on front risers than anything else I've jumped (Xaos21, Katana, Nitron, Stiletto, Hurricane). Its openings were a bit firm for me, but that could likely be fixed by tweaking the slider size or adding a pocket. The Samurai didn't seem to have quite the flare of the Katana, but the proper technique is less similar to my usual canopy than is that for the Katana, so I probably didn't have the Samurai dialed in as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #24 October 13, 2004 My Katana openings are soft, consistent, and dead-on heading, and I love the way it flies and dives. However, I'm also loading it at 2:1, which is, as I understand it, the sweet spot for this canopy. What I hear more and more is that the Katana doesn't like to be too underloaded."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #25 October 13, 2004 Quote Check out the Blade by HyperUSA. *** I've exchanged a couple of emails with them and a demo is on the way. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
