Yoshi 0 #1 June 16, 2003 Ok so I have about 15-20 swoops now working with rear risers. this is my ??: When you use rears do you hold them down to the last minute and jab the toggles, or make a transition while you will have speed to get surf on rears and toggles... I did one this weekend that was pretty nice but skygod7777 told me I wshould have let out of the rears and switched to toggles before I bled enough speed off only to jab it at the end. Do you get a further swoop if you transition to toggles mid swoop or wait until the end to jab 'm??? thanks for the input -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #2 June 16, 2003 be careful working with the rear risers if you're jumping a non cross braced canopy... You'll probably get a lot out of picking up a video like dirt water dirt or swoop or out of the blue, and watch how the pros do it. I think that maximizing your swoop probably has a lot more to do with the beginning of the swoop, than the end of your swoop... Do you really have less than 400 jumps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #3 June 16, 2003 yeah I have 383 jumps to date. I have progressed a little faster than most, and faster than most would suggest (even myself) Why would you say be careful with rears with a non crossbraced canopy? I do have swoop and watched plenty of footage in "canopy training". I know that most of the swoop comes from the approach and the smooth flight thru the swoop, but if I can add some feet to the distance (which I feel, and told, I am doing pretty well at now) it would be nice. I still dont get why you would be more careful on a non crossbraced canopy with rears than one with crossbraces...I have got about 15-20 rear riser landings on my crossfire 2 and havent had and real problems persay...jsut learning where it actually planes out and the "squishyness" of the feel thru the swoop, I have also dont one landing on it with no toggles at all just using rears... granted I still had a bit of speed and if the grass wasnt a little wet I wouldnt have slid quite as well to bleed off that last 5 mph or so:) anyways... thanks for the reply -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #4 June 16, 2003 Be careful using rear risers without a crossbraced canopy?? Huh?? I've seen lots of dudes jumping jumping non-crossbraced canopies and flying the shit out of the rear risers all the way to the stop. Stiletto's, Crossfires, Cobalt's, Saber 2's...and the list goes on. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #5 June 16, 2003 Why are you trying to get that extra feet in the end of your swoop? I hope you don't mind me asking, how long have you been jumping and what's your wing loading? Did you buy the main new and if so, did Icarus know how many jumps you had at the time? What dz are you from? I ask this because I have a tough time believing that a manufacturer would sell a canopy to somebody with less than the recommended number of jumps, and that the S&TA at your DZ would also allow it to happen. A 111 seems a little small, regardless of how well you've progressed thus far. It really only takes one mistake to hurt yourself... Adding a small canopy, low jumps numbers, and experimenting with rear risers and swooping, and your equation begins to look a little sketchy. I would stay off the rear risers... You're going to get great swoops from swooping without them, and you'll remove the risk of collapsing the canopy because you pulled a little too much for a little too long. I would really consider concentrating on your canopy's more basic flight characteristics until you've done 4-5-600 jumps on it, and then begin to focus on things like rear risers and higher performance landings. I'm not trying to offend, but I have a tough time reading about someone with this many jumps and this size canopy... Be safe, broh' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #6 June 16, 2003 QuoteBe careful using rear risers without a crossbraced canopy?? Huh?? I've seen lots of dudes jumping jumping non-crossbraced canopies and flying the shit out of the rear risers all the way to the stop. Stiletto's, Crossfires, Cobalt's, Saber 2's...and the list goes on. Canuck I have too... but not a single one of the many, many pilots have had 383 jumps... right? I would bet that the percentage of people who fly non cross braced canopies and use their rear risers is much much lower than the percentage of people who fly cross braced canopies and use their rear risers... Either way, you do need to be careful using the rear risers on a non cross braced canopy. I really don't believe that there's an arguement there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #7 June 17, 2003 QuoteEither way, you do need to be careful using the rear risers on a non cross braced canopy. I really don't believe that there's an arguement there... Why? Why is using the rear risers on a non crossbraced any more dangerous than using rear risers on a crossbraced canopy? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #8 June 17, 2003 [QUOTE]A 111 seems a little small, regardless of how well you've progressed thus far.[/QUOTE] If I flew a 111 it would be loaded at about 1.3:1. At ~400 jumps that wouldn't be bad. He might be a lightweight like me! 1.3WL isn't too bad. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #9 June 17, 2003 Not looking for an argument, just an explanation. Based on what are you making the assumption that rear risers are any less safe on a non-cross braced canopy? Hopefully it's more than just your experience seeing more people doing it flying cross-braced canopies. The explanation to that should be pretty obvious. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #10 June 17, 2003 QuoteEither way, you do need to be careful using the rear risers on a non cross braced canopy. You got me on this one. Any one care to explain this?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #11 June 17, 2003 Quote Why? Why is using the rear risers on a non crossbraced any more dangerous than using rear risers on a crossbraced canopy? - Jim Here's my take on why I believe that it's more dangerous to use rear risers on a non cross braced canopy... It's my understanding that cross braced canopies are designed with a much steeper glide angle, or angle of attack, than a non cross braced canopy. So, when you pull down on the rear risers of a cross braced canopy, you have a lot of play with them in terms of leveling out the canopy and flying them through the swoop. The non cross braced canopy, as I understand it, is designed with an angle of attack, or glide angle, much less steep... When you pull down on the rear risers with the noncross braced canopy, it takes very little input to reach the same flat glide as the cross braced canopy. Using the rear risers with either canopy too much can very easily result in a canopies collapsing, and since the amount of play you have with a noncross braced canopy is much less than a cross braced canopy, there is much less room for play, and for error. I believe that that translates to it being more risky to use the rear risers with the non cross braced canopy, than to use them with the cross braced canopy. How's that for an explanation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #12 June 17, 2003 are cross braced canopies less susceptible to canopy collapse than non cross braced? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #13 June 17, 2003 I will say "no." I learned to rear-riser swoop on a Cobalt H-mod. It really wasn't any different in that respect than my current Velocity, other than the slower speed. PLENTY of people rear-riser the piss out of Stillettos. Anyone ever seen Craig Girrard land a parachute? He does not touch his toggles. Neither do half the members of the GK eight way team. Rear risering is not only possible under a non-braced canopy, it's widely practiced. Chuck Edited to add that I rear riser both my Stilletto 107 staff rig and my Sabre2 97 BirdMan rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #14 June 17, 2003 Quoteare cross braced canopies less susceptible to canopy collapse than non cross braced? Tough one to answer Andy. I'd like to get someone like Chris From Precision to help answer that one. Rear riser landings are touchy. If you are in the corner and you try to dig yourself out using rear riser, you'll stall it and hammer into the ground. That goes for Cross braced and Non-Crossed Braced alike. Stalling and collapsing are different. So I'm not sure how you mean your question to read. Since you're just getting into the sport, Take this time as a newbie to really explore the flight of your canopy (which ever one you are under at the time) and really wring it out above your cutaway decision altitude. Bug me in a PM and I'll send you some excersizes to try out. -My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #15 June 17, 2003 QuotePLENTY of people rear-riser the piss out of Stillettos All these years... I was completely unaware there was any piss in my canopy. Learn something every day. -My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #16 June 17, 2003 I see the logic in your argument. I would agree that most cross-braced canopies are trimmed much steeper than most non-cross braced canopies. However, I'm not sure if that translates into a perceivably shorter usable range of the rear risers. I believe most would argue that the chance of rear riser stalls increase more so with higher and higher wing loadings. I think it's very important to make the message clear to the up and comers that all canopy maneuvers can be performed and practiced on a conventional canopy. It prevents people from getting into cross braced wings before they are ready because they think only a cross-braced canopy can be swooped or rear risered. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #17 June 17, 2003 Quote I think it's very important to make the message clear to the up and comers that all canopy maneuvers can be performed and practiced on a conventional canopy. It prevents people from getting into cross braced wings before they are ready because they think only a cross-braced canopy can be swooped or rear risered. Canuck An interesting angle with which I agree... Hopefully people will wait until they are experienced before they challenge themselves with higher performance landings, using either cross or non cross braced canopies. -Drew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 June 17, 2003 QuoteIf I flew a 111 it would be loaded at about 1.3:1. At ~400 jumps that wouldn't be bad. He might be a lightweight like me! 1.3WL isn't too bad. It doesn't scale quite like that, you have to take other variables into account like line length. A 190sq-ft canopy loaded at 1.3 is not the same animal as a 111sq-ft canopy loaded at 1.3. This is a problem that a lot of women run into in terms of finding a wingloading that works for them. There have been a few threads about this already, if you do a search, you'll find them. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #19 June 17, 2003 [QUOTE]It doesn't scale quite like that, you have to take other variables into account like line length. A 190sq-ft canopy loaded at 1.3 is not the same animal as a 111sq-ft canopy loaded at 1.3. [/QUOTE] Ah, thanks for reminding me about that. I was aware of that, but its good to be reminded about it. I figure that will be a problem for me as I get more and more experience, where anything above a 1.4-1.5 WL will be sub 100 ft2. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #20 June 17, 2003 I think the major difference in using rear risers is in the rigidity of the wing. When you use rears as opposed to toggles you are changing the angle of attack directly by pulling the entire back half of the canopy down. With toggles you change the angle of attack by deflecting the tail (flaring) which then changes the angle of attack. X-brace canopies are extremely rigid so when you pull the rears down the canopy does not deform (very little) and speed is not compromised. With a non x-braced canopy when you pull the rears down eveything works the same, but the canopy deforms significantly, making it less effective than on a x-brace. I think it is this deforming that makes it easier to dynamically stall non x-braced canopies on rears. I love my VX on rears, it is the only way to fly. I don't even bother on me crossfire as the reas feel very mushy. Tree Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #21 June 17, 2003 ffdrew: yes I do have 383 jumps and I do fly a crossfire 2 111 loaded at 1.8. I did buy the canopy brand new and I jumped similar canopy size (even smaller) with the manufacturer present (when I demoed them) and under the "supervision" of 2 S&TA's at my dz. My situation has been discussed on here before, and flame away if you desire. The post was not about me, or my ability to do it safely, it was about the characteristics of the flight durring the swoop while using rear risers. If you wish to discuss my wing load and ability post another thread and I would be happy to talk about it. -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #22 June 17, 2003 Just be safe yosh, I am sure that is al ffdrew is meaning. And very interesting question by the way... blue ones. AgeS.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #23 June 17, 2003 Although I fear for your life, well put. I am interested in a real answer to your question as well, just for knowledge sake alone... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoshi 0 #24 June 17, 2003 QuoteJust be safe yosh, I am sure that is al ffdrew is meaning. absolutely. although many wouldnt think it to be safe for me, I have aquired training under adequate supervision and instructors. I realize and accept the risk. Thanks for the concern everyone, but lets get back to the matter at hand -yoshi_________________________________________ this space for rent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #25 June 18, 2003 QuoteIt's my understanding that cross braced canopies are designed with a much steeper glide angle, or angle of attack, than a non cross braced canopy. So, when you pull down on the rear risers of a cross braced canopy, you have a lot of play with them in terms of leveling out the canopy and flying them through the swoop. Not true... People should learn the use of rear risers on every canopy they jump. And they should learn to rear riser to a full stop landing... (a broken steering line is not a reason, alone, to chop a canopy). Yoshi, continue on your learning, be careful and respectful of your equipmqnt. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
