Rear Riser Landings

[landmissle 2]

Hi all,
So I"ve got about 190 jumps now to my credit with about 90 of those under a Cobalt 150 loaded at 1.45. I'm wanting to take baby steps towards doing faster landing approaches. I've read and been told that the best way to do this is with straight in approaches with front risers. Actually to use the front risers on the downwind leg of the landing pattern to get used to there feel and effect and to eventually bring them into play further in the pattern (i.e., base leg and finally the final leg.). Obviously, the frontt riser use on the downleg and base won't affect the landing in the sense of speed, but this gradual approach will get one used to the speed and descent rate in a safe manner.
My question is, would trying to master the art of rear riser landings also be a good idea. It seems it would for a couple of reasons; 1) Less likely to chop just because of a broken brake line. 2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should snap while doing a high speed approach. Does this idea seem valid?
I was told to expect that less riser input would be necessary to plane out the canopy (as opposed to normal flaring.) and that not as much speed would be bled off. Is this a reasonable expectation?
Any other comments or ideas on this subject?

Feet up, heads down, blue skies, WWOD
Landmissle

Feet up, heads down, blue skies WWOD?

Landmissle

[Kirils 1]

Personally, I find the rear riser control range to be too short for comfort. Stalling the canopy is easier.
I think the skill level required for rear rise surfs is way up there.

"Slow down! You are too young
to be moving that fast!"

Old Man Crawfish

[rhino 0]

I've done TONS of work on my new crossfire using rear risers.. I won't be using them down low for a while.. The response time is amazing.. The canopy dives allot more and stays more vertical when in rear risers vs toggles. I find myself making turns and diving sustained allot more now with rear risers than with toggles. I would dare say rear risers are now primary and toggles are secondary up high.. It is tons of fun but very risky down low if you haven't dialed things in.. I am not at the point where I will do it low yet.. Be safe..

Rhino

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Rhino, I hope that you are not implying that you are considering making rear riser turns onto final sometime in the future. That, in effect, does the same thing as a toggle hook, only much faster.

As for the original post: yes, being able to control and land your parachute with rear risers is a good survival skill. You do not, however, need to be playing with high-speed rear riser landings anytime in the near future. Straight in approaches with no turning input are what you should be concerned with when it comes to rear-riser survival skills. Also, should you choose to practice it on an actual landing, do so under a much larger main before attempting it under your Cobalt. The smaller the main, the easier it is to induce a high-speed stall and drop you on your ass. On my 75, it only takes a little push to get around the corner and the risers must be pushed or pulled exactly the same distance to avoid diving off to one side. Be safe.

Chuck

[rhino 0]

Monk, read my post
I said it is something I WON'T be doing.. lol

Peace

Rhino

[ernokaikkonen 0]

>2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should snap while
>doing a high speed approach. Does this idea seem valid?

I don't think so. I'm really not an HP-canopy pilot, but if a brakeline snaps during a high-speed approach, it will snap when you're trying to get your canopy out of the dive, into level flight... I don't think anyone could react quickly enough to recover the situation with rear risers:

1. dive with front riser
2. release front riser
3. pull toggles
4. one brakeline snaps, canopy instead of leveling out dives to one side
5. pilot realizes something is wrong
6. pilot realizes it was the brakeline
7. pilot switches to rear risers
8. levels out and flares with rear risers

I think the pilot would hit the ground somewhere between 5 and 6...

Has anyone ever heard(/seen/done himself) of anyone doing such a recovery?

Erno

[eames 0]

I posted this in the G&R forum... thought I'd put it here too....

Quote

2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should snap while doing a high speed approach.

You might try some strait in rear riser landings in case you have a brake line snap on opening and you'd rather not chop it, but as far as high performance landings go, I wouldn't worry about rear risers for a long time. Especially for recoveries. You can't dig out of the corner with rear risers. Try it up high and you'll see why I say that. Plus, if you were already on toggles after doing some speed building maneuver (you'd have to be for a steering line to snap), it was already way too late to use rear risers. Rear riser stalls are quick, hard to predict, and even violent. They'll drop you on the ground before you even know what happened, and if that happens in the corner, you're in big trouble.

How do you transition from rear risers to toggles? It takes lots and lots of practice. Everyone has thier own method, but I'll tell you this much: you should to do it in such a way that you'll be least likely to lose a toggle. But once again, that's a very advanced technique and probably isn't something you should be worried about.

Jason

[eames 0]

Quote

How do you transition from rear risers to toggles?

That was in response to the guy who asked that question in G&R... in case you were wondering.

Jason

[billvon 2,400]

>My question is, would trying to master the art of rear riser landings
>also be a good idea.

Yes, it's a good thing to work on, but be very careful when you start on this. Never let go of your toggles, so that you can "recover" a bad rear riser flare with toggles. Begin by just stopping your descent with rear risers, then switching immediately to brakes; as your confidence increases, stay in rear risers a little longer. It should go without saying that you should try this up high before trying it during landing, and that you should choose a good time to try a landing this way (steady winds, soft ground.)

>1) Less likely to chop just because of a broken brake line.

Or, at least, a better idea of whether or not you have to.

>2) Confidence building for recoveries in case the brake line should
> snap while doing a high speed approach.

Not that useful. During an approach on a canopy at your loads, you just don't have time to pull it out with rear risers. Fortunately, lines tend to break most often at opening, not on approach.

>I was told to expect that less riser input would be necessary to plane
> out the canopy (as opposed to normal flaring.) and that not as
> much speed would be bled off.

Yes. In addition, it will stall earlier and the stall break will be much more abrupt.

[airdrew20012001 0]

I have started doing rear riser flair and this is what I can report:

a) Be very gentle, the canopy will buck and potentialy taco if you use too much.
b) Practice up high a LOT
c) Only do it for real if you have a really good set up. The ones I have done that have worked and worked well have been when I had the set up for a perfect hook, the one I did that didn't work so well was a rush job.
d) have someone video you, it really helps.

Go really slow, the potential to get thouroughly spanked is pretty high.

Drewfus McDoofus

[polarbear 1]

I'm by no means an expert but I will share my experience.

My first canopy was a Monarch 215, which I had loaded at 1.0. I had a brake line snap on opening once and decided to land it in rear risers. I didn't stand the landing up, but it was soft enough.

I was fortunate enough to have had someone film that landing, and now that I am a little more experienced and knowledgeable about canopy flight, I can review the video and actually see the problems with rear riser flares. I started the flare at about the same height as I would with the toggles. I flare by pulling down only about 2". The canopy begins to plane out, but does so slowly. I realize I am not planning out quickly enough, so I haul in another inch or two of rear riser (what I would normally do on toggles if I was not planning out). You can see a distictive dimple form on the top of the canopy at this point and the canopy stops trying to plane out. It basically drops the rest of the way (luckily only about 5 feet) with a relatively high speed and angle of descent. I think if I had started the flare higher and just held the first 2" of rear riser flare, I probably would have planed out OK.

I wish I could show that video, because I think it displays quite nicely what can happen with a rear riser flare. Luckily, I was jumping at a relatively low wing loading and was not swooping, so my airspeed and descent were never that high.

From what it looks like to me, using rear risers to flare seems to be something that requires a certain amount of altitude to do. If everything is set up right, you can haul in an inch or two and hold it until you are flying flat across the ground. But, if you are too low, I think you have to recognize that quickly and instead of hauling in more rear riser to try to plane out more quickly, get on the toggles and land that way. I don't think you can think of rear risers as a substitute for toggles...they act differently and require different thinking.

I would also agree that during a swoop using rear risers to land after snapping a brake line during the flare is a fat chance. I sure as hell would try if I was in that situation, but I think you basically have to prevent that one from happening. Keep an eye on your brake lines and replace them when the show any wear.

I have started playing around with rear risers up high on my Samurai and it feels weird. I have noticed it is awkward to grab on to the rear risers evenly without looking at them, something I don't want to do during the flare. It also seems to be harder to "feel" if the flare is right (with the toggles, you can feel when you are getting enough lift - I haven't experienced that on rear risers).

I suppose eventually I'll try using rear risers to land, but that is on the very bottom of a long list of things I could do to improve swoop diatnce.

"Holy s*** that was f***in' cold!"

[landmissle 2]

Thanks for the input. It obviously sounds like rear riser flares during high speed approaches are questionable at best.
What about doing them in a straight in approach? Again, based on the assumption that I lost a brake line during deployment or during the "control check" up high. Wouldn't this be a valuable skill to know? Or should you just always chop if someting like broken brake lines occur. I guess I'm so curious about this because last week at "The American Boogie" at Skydance, Davis, a fellow jumper demoed a canopy from a visiting manufactorer. The providers of the canopy installed the toggles incorrectly and during my friends "controll check" after deployment, the toggles ( may have only been one, not sure..) came loose from the brake line. She chopped and rightly so since she had never done a rear riser landing and was on an unfamiliar canopy to boot.

Again thanks for the input!

Feet up, heads down, blue skies WWOD?

Landmissle

[SBS 0]

It sounds like your friend made a good call.

It depends on how your canopy is loaded, and what type it is...that will determine how it lands with rear risers. If it is a canopy that is already trimed out to push the envelope, it will be a lot easier to stall it than if you were flying a Spectre 150 or 170, for example.

If I had a broken brake line, it would depend on the wind that day, and what canopy I was flying. If I were flying my Crossfire and there was less than 10-15 mph of wind, I wouldn't consider trying. If I were flying a Spectre, though, 135 or 150, I would probably try it regardless of wind, and just count on a PLF. It would also depend on if I were jumping camera or not...for my safety, and in the interest of saving my cameras.

Steve

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[billvon 2,400]

>What about doing them in a straight in approach? Again, based on
> the assumption that I lost a brake line during deployment or during
> the "control check" up high. Wouldn't this be a valuable skill to
> know? Or should you just always chop if someting like broken brake
> lines occur.

That depends on the canopy, and that's one of the best reasons to experiment with them - that way you know if you will be able to land a canopy with rear risers only. On larger canopies you probably will. On very small canopies you probably won't. By trying it out, you will get a better feel for the higher landing speeds, more precise control required, and more abrupt stalls at higher speeds inherent in rear-riser landings.

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

and more abrupt stalls at higher speeds inherent in rear-riser landings.

And this is what makes rear riser landings dangerous, especially on smaller canopies.

I've seen canopies stall on landing with toggles and with rear risers. When a canopy stalls on rear risers it is instant. I watched a fellow jumper stall on rear risers a few weeks ago, the canopy didn't buckle or exhibit and of the warning signs that a stall was coming, it just stopped, immediatly. The jumper was dropped on his ass, lucky he wasn't injured.

Be careful out there....

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[lowhook 0]

If you have only 190 jumps or so and want to take baby steps toward high performance landings I would avoid rear riser techniques for now. Seems to me you would be better off using those baby steps to gradually learn the natural recovery arc on your canopy from a vary gradual progression of front riser approaches.

Knowing how to use rear risers to save your life is a good thing. Using them to plane out high performance landings (then transitioning safely to toggles) is an art in itself. Take your time!

Just my $.02