Toggle Turns

[Designer 0]

I really get sick of this debate.I have never experienced a problem with my toggle turns.(90 degrees only)I certainly don,t have any problems with people hook turning until the fatality reports come in.Just how many die by doing hooks vs toggles turns will never be known?I prefer toggle turn landings because it is easier for me to perform them.

[billvon 2,471]

>I really get sick of this debate.I have never experienced a problem with my toggle
> turns.(90 degrees only)I certainly don,t have any problems with people hook
> turning until the fatality reports come in.
Well, some of us prefer to try to educate people before, rather than after, they die.
>Just how many die by doing hooks vs toggles turns will never be known?
I think you can get a pretty good idea by reading the incident reports. Try the skydiving fatalities page.
>I prefer toggle turn landings because it is easier for me to perform them.
That's your right, you can land however you want. However, experience has shown that toggle hooks give you the least ability to abort a bad approach. In addition, most serious swoopers eventually learn front riser turns-to-landing even though they are more difficult, since it tends to give them a better surf.
-bill von

[JJohnson 0]

Feel free to correct me, but I belive the subject of the thread was comparing toggle hooks to riser hooks, or at least attempting to use these techniques to build up speed in a swoop.
A 90 degree toggle turn hardly qualifies as what I thought these people were talking about. Those that added their insights were quite instructive and seeing as how many lower time jumpers are coming to the website we are bound to have many repeating subjects. If you don't want to read.....don't.
JJ

[cloud9 0]

I have to admit I'm a little confused here. If your talking about hook turns thats one thing, but I read a 90 degree toggle turn on landing. That's what most of us do and it's what all students do and should do.
You make your down wind, then you turn 90 degree's with your toggle, for your cross wind. Then you make another 90 degree toggle turn for you up wind. I certainly don't want to confuse any newer jumpers this is the way it should be done.
Riser turns are great but should be left for the more experienced jumpers.

[RichM 0]

I think you are referring to a gentle toggle turn used by all students and many many experienced jumpers to change direction.
There is a much more severe version that is used to gain landing speed by initially losing canopy speed and making your body act as a pendulum. This kind of toggle turn has to be done exactly right every time, as there are very little options to correct a misjudgement. The front riser turn increases landing speed but does so by increasing canopy speed meaning your canopy is much more responsive to corrections.
I hope that helps. Rich M

[kallend 1,679]

<<>>
I have a graph showing fatality rates from different causes from 1989 to 2001 on my web site at:
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/
The only obvious increasing trend is from landings.

[Haeloth 0]

OK I know this is probably the wrong forum for this idle chitchat, but what kind of skydiving fatalities are not caused by landing?
Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...

[dove 0]

Well - freefall collisions for one.

[billvon 2,471]

>I have to admit I'm a little confused here. If your talking about hook turns thats
> one thing, but I read a 90 degree toggle turn on landing. That's what most of us
> do and it's what all students do and should do.
Well, done at the right altitude (i.e. above X feet on a given canopy) it just gives you a normal turn. Do it at a lower altitude, and you have a toggle hook turn. Since the poster was comparing toggle turns to front riser turns, and discussing hook turn fatalities, I assumed he was talking about the latter.
-bill von

[fred 0]

Maybe I'm taking this too far off topic, but does it matter how big the turn is? Will a 90° turn cause the canopy to dive less than a 180° turn?
It probably depends on the canopy, but in general, is this true? Certainly a 720° turn cause the canopy to lose a lot of altitude, but is that the case on less extreme turns?

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

Will a 90° turn cause the canopy to dive less than a 180° turn?

For every degree of turn canopy X will lose Y amount of altitude. If you turn 90 it will lose so many feet. If you turn 95 it will lose a little more....etc. The harder the turn....the more altitude you will lose.
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[cobaltdan 0]

as your rate of turn increases so does your vertical speed.
i.e. a slowly executed 360 can loose less altitude than a fast 180.
sincerely,
dan

[bhale 0]

I have performed over a thousand toggle "hooks", and have been very happy with the results. I have recently gone to front riser "carves" which have increased distance dramatically. I have heard, for a long time, how much more dangerous toggle turns are, swinging the body out, no opportunity to bail out if turn is too low, etc... Until tnis weekend, I would gladly argue that toggle turns are just as "safe" as riser turns, for high speed landings.
For once, it was not windy(Saturday). The swoops were FAST!
I was down a load, so was watching the landings. One of our staff members, on a new Vengance, pulled a hard toggle 180, and was just starting to come back under the canopy when he hit/bounced. His second point of contact was approximately 50 feet from his first. As a result: fractured fibula, dislocated ankle, crushed L3. They are going to remove the bone fragments from area where L3 used to be, and put pins in. This could very well end his skydiving career.
Could this happen with a riser turn, absolutley! Low turns, toggle and riser, are dangerous!
I guess my feelings are, riser carves keep the body better centered under the canopy. Riser carves allow the pilot to come out of the turn and still have the ability to flare.
I am concerned, especially for low time jumpers. Everyone (me included) is sizing down and speeding up. Low time jumpers see experienced jumpers flying hot rods and performing high speed landings, and try to emulate what they are seeing.
I would just ask, please, high speed pilots, keep an eye out for those up and coming "swoopers", and get involved with their progress before it is too late. Let's take care of each other, and stay safe.

[weber 0]

My personal take on this is if you have plenty of altitude, then a toggle is preffered...but you have to be absolutely sure. A toggle should not be used to get a long swoop because it works towards taking the swoop away when it reduces your flare. When you use your front riser for a carving turn you will get an amazing amount of extra flare and swoop. A carving riser will also allow you to pull out and level the canopy with your risers if you have misjudged your landing where in a toggle turn you have already used part of the flare from the toggles to make the turn.
That said, if you do want to land with your risers be sure to practice a bunch up top to see how they will react. Another thing to check if you plan to do riser turns is your steering line length. Be sure you have extra slack to prevent the canopy from bucking which could possible cause a partial deflation. I know most of this was already said, but I figured I'd put my couple words in. I hope I said it right, but please correct me if I didn't. blues ones...

[Geoff 0]

Quote

A carving riser will also allow you to pull out and level the canopy with your risers if you have misjudged your landing

If you're just trying to make sure you walk away from a mis-judged approach, toggles are much better than rear risers to pull you out of a dive and level the wings. Far too much risk of a stall with RR.
geoff

[weber 0]

You're absolutely right. I meant to put toggles.