Reflex pop top question

[pilotdave 0]

After getting my reserve repacked, the reserve pilot chute started coming out from the spring after jumping. I had the rigger stuff it back in and tighten the pop top down, but it came out again after each jump. I tried stuffing it into the spring before a jump yesterday, but between putting the rig on and getting into the plane, it came back out. I ended up getting kicked off the plane because it didn't look right (which is good... I don't want to jump it like that. The rigger suggested I keep stuffing it back in there and try to massage the reserve a bit to fill the gap under the pop top so it can't come back out. But, thats what I tried before and it didn't seem to work. He said the pop top is tighted down as much as he could get it. He's off to rantoul now, but he said when he get's back he'll call...umm... I think they're called Trident now... and ask if he can get a shorter reserve closing loop to get it tighter. This hasn't happened before so I don't think anything needs to be changed. Anyone have any short term advice (ie, before I actually have him repack it)? By the way, I just jump on my belly and don't do anything crazy so I'm not sure how dangerous a situation it really would be to jump with it the way it is.

Also, for the record, the dark spots on the pop top (hard to see in those pics) are beer stains from cross keys.
Dave

[fasterfaller 0]

How about the rigger does the job over and right and free of charge . It is not that hard to get a reflex done right . As for a shorter loop , you adjust the loop as you cinch the pop top down .He may have made the finger trap section too far down the line and that may be why he can't get it tighter . I would make him stand behind his work . Is this the first time this rigger packed it for you ?

[ramon 0]

If he did not pull the pin, re-stuff the cute and then close it again...
it sounds like he did a bad intitial job of stuffing the chute (I did that once and knew it after my rigger sealed it). This can happen if you tighten the pop top too much before you stick all the pilot chute material under there.

If you are trying to get the last bit under a tight top and have too much on one side it will not stay. That single pin will let the pop top lean to one side and the material on the fat side can leak out.

I would pull the pin and reclose the container paying special attention to the pilot chute stuffing (of course your rigger should do this, or another who did not pack it may want to re-inspect it and pack it before they put their seal on it). a skinny flat plate is normally used to stuff the material under the pop top between the spring rings at the top.

disclaimer, I am not a rigger and I may be totally off base..but I ain't ig'nant..... assuming your rigger may not have packed a bunch of reflexes. they are easy but there is a right way and a less right way to stuff that material..some riggers tend to get the same type of gear over and over again and get good at cosmetically fitting the reserve canopy in the free bag...but if they don't practice a lot on other rigs the fit and finish might not be there.

good luck

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[pilotdave 0]

Yep, that was the first time he packed for me, and he offered to fix it for free after rantoul. That just means I probably can't jump the next couple weekends. Not really a big deal for me because I'm not sure I'll be able to jump anyway.

Dave

[fasterfaller 0]

It does take a few tries to get the reflex right .

[riggerrob 561]

Yes. it takes a few tries to get a Reflex right. I never mastered the technique until the guy who packed display rigs for the Fliteline factory showed me a few tricks.
The key is some subtle tricks in how you distribute the reserve canopy bulk in the free-bag. It takes a few minutes of extra effort to create the correct size and shape of "crater" for the pilotchute to sink into. A common mistake is allowing bulk to creep towards the loop as you pull the side flaps closed. If you do not create and maintain that "crater", no amount of pulling. pounding, poking or proding after the container is closed will make the pilotchute look pretty.
Oh, and one other thing: poking pilotchute fabric with any kind of hard object is a bad habit. I have grounded far too many pilotchutes for holes created by muscular riggers trying to stuff fabric with packing paddles, etc. If you lack the skills to stuff fabric with your fingers, then pass the job onto someone who does.

[ramon 0]

Quote

Oh, and one other thing: poking pilotchute fabric with any kind of hard object is a bad habit. I have grounded far too many pilotchutes for holes created by muscular riggers trying to stuff fabric with packing paddles, etc.

good point. and about the molar shape too. I think my best pack job on it it was formed better.

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Yoshi 0]

I would be careful as well as how tight you get your pop top. mine likes to wiggle loose afte about 25-50 jumps or so..I tighten it down, but if its too tight you will have a hard pull as well as tightening it too much will cause the pin to bend (mine did a little and now I have to order a new pin)
-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[fasterfaller 0]

You MUST always set the closing loop while using a temp. pin on the reflex . If you don't use one the chances of bending the pin are great . I have never had a reflex pin bend after inserting it into the closing loop this way . It does take a great deal of force to compress a reflex spring .There are several hard jerks required to seat it properly and that is what bends the pins . I have damaged one temp. pin doing a reflex and pull tested it and it was still within limits . I also only use cypres loop material when doing a reflex and I always use the cypres silicone on the loop where the pin is inserted .

[riggerrob 561]

That's odd.
I was under the impression that you were not supposed to use silicone lubricant on adjustable loops.

[fasterfaller 0]

I always thought you used the silicone on the reflex when there was a cypres installed . I am very carefull not to get any on the fingertrap section . That's the impression I was under . I could be wrong though .

[BadDog 0]

Two points. First, the Reflex Owner's Manual states that after 72 hours of being repacked, the air will bleed out of the reserve and the pilot chute will start to "gap" and need to be tightened down. Second, the Reflex Reserve Closing Loop Manufacturing Instructions state that you should not use silicone lubricant on the loop as the loop can act as a wick to soak up the lubricant and cause loop slippage. The Cypres Packer's Checklist says that to protect the integrity of fingertrapped adjustable loops, they should not be treated with silicone.

[councilman24 36]

I saw your low number of jumps. If this is a new rig or a new combination the reserve may be too small for the rig and not provide enough bulk to fill the rig and create the "crater" for the PC. From the pics either the rigger didn't come close to getting it tight enough, the reserve is too small and the container isn't full enough, or it slipped drastically. If this rig has been successfully packed by someone else, then some thing went wrong with this pack job. One key I learned from Fliteline is to put ALL your weight on the the poptop to while tightening the loop. If you just kneel on it with partial weight its much harder to get it sucked down. Also, getting a replacement loop made with just the right amount of finger trap and in the right place takes some practice. If the rigger suggested a "shorter loop" then I'd be suspicious. As stated before the loop length is created while tightening the cap. It starts out several inches long. I get to go do one tonight.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah it's been packed fine before. I think the reserve may be a little bit small for the container, but not much. Hopefully I'll be able to get it fixed this weekend. I just hope the whole thing doesn't need to be repacked.

Dave

[diverdriver 5]

A couple of notes (not saying this is the cause of THIS problem but it could): If the rigger creates the "through loop" with the finger trap incorrectly spaced then it can lay on either side of the grommet and this will cause it to slip. Seen this many times with friends who have Reflexes. Also, NO SILICONE. That's already been posted above.

Next, you do no have to use a temp pin to correctly tighten a Reflex reserve loop. The original suggestion was to place the thick barrel of the closing pin under the loop. This extra thickness will help protect the pin from bending when an inexperienced rigger hauls down with even pulls rather than the correct quick, jurking motion prescribed in the manual. After tightening is done you slide the pin to its' correct position. You are supposed to put pressure on the cap to take the pressure OFF the loop and then with a quick jurk pull the closing loop leader. I usually use one of our base guys with a bare foot to place a heel in the middle of the cap and apply their weight but not fully. Then I pull the leader with two quick snaps. My cap stays tight for the entire 120 days.

Packing bulk and all these other points can all cause the problem you are having so don't take it as a diagnosis. Just as things to think about when having your reserve "redone".

Disclaimer: I'm not a rigger but I do have 4 "saves". My first save was me on my new Reflex in 1997. I know my packjob works. Another one of my saves was another Reflex. And I have Zero bent pins closing them. And yes, I pack under the DIRECT supervision of a licensed Senior and Master Rigger....correction....."Nylon American".

Chris

[fasterfaller 0]

I have seen pins bend even when done correctly according to the manual . I have watched master riggers that have packed a hundred reflex's bend temp pins . It is not a good idea to use the closing pin to seat the pilot chute . It does make it easier by eliminating one step but I would rather take an extra two minutes .

[billvon 2,435]

>It is not a good idea to use the closing pin to seat the pilot chute .

However, it is what is called out in the Reflex packing manual. A note on the bottom mentions that a temp pin inserted along with the reserve pin _may_ be used.

[riggermick 6]

Follow the packing instructions, that's why I wrote them. Nothing was made up or stuck in the manual just to fill space. It took a long time to write and edit so that it was easy to understand by all. The Cypres loop/ no silicone issue was recommended to me by Airtec. Loop construction instructions and a packing tip sheet were developed after time with input from the field. Bomber Mfg should be able to help you there. From the description and photo's it could be an incorrectly constructed loop, incompatible canopy/ container, not seating the pilot chute correctly, poor packing or all of the above. it is really impossible to tell without having it here to inspect.
Mick Cottle.

[diverdriver 5]

Hiya Mick! Love my Reflex (1997). Glad you could weigh in here.

Chris

[pilotdave 0]

Just an update... The rigger was able to tighten down the pop top more yesterday, and it looked fine afterwards. I made two jumps, then left it with him to work on more thoroughly. No PC material was visible after either of the jumps so I'm not sure any more work is really needed, but he offered to do it for free so it's fine with me.

Dave