rhino 0 #1 February 1, 2002 I am currently jumping a Diablo110 at a wing loading of 1.7. I now have about 50 jumps on the canopy and have had no problems.. The only thing I don't like is the lack of lift at the very end of the landing. I jumped a FX 114 and it seemed to have twice the lift in the last 10% of the landing. My question is if I were to get a Velocity 111 what would the flight characteristics be like in comparison to the Diablo110? I would like similar turn rate, even faster would be o.k. as I play high not low, I am looking for that bit of extra bottom end. Any input would be greatly appreciated. And don't refer me to another post.. Just answer the question if you have the time please.Thanks, Blue Skies!! RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #2 February 1, 2002 since you play high not low, i would not recommend an x-braced canopy to you.as far as that extra lift you are looking for: choose most any 9 cell canopy and you will have it.sincerely,dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #3 February 1, 2002 Why do you say that Dan?? I like to wrench the hell out of a canopy up high. The fast turns and tremendous loss of altitude and the speed is what is fun for me.. The most I do on landing is a slow carve maybe 90 degrees at most.. But what I'm really looking for is info on the lift of the Velocity at the end of the landing? And is it as fun and responsive as the Diablo at the same loading?Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #4 February 1, 2002 more than the diablo, just by basic design. (aspect ratio) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #5 February 1, 2002 This doesn't help me.. Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #6 February 1, 2002 I jump a Diablo loaded at 1.4 and I have a Chaos 21. These are 2 different birds. Your loading on the Diablo is really pushing the performance limit. Actually you are probably getting diminished returns on the Diablo at that loading. If you want higher speed, long swoops and more powerful flares, get on a cross braced canopy. While my experience with the small tri-braced guns is small. I think the Chaos is a gem. Fly fast, fly safe!Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rogue108 0 #7 February 1, 2002 200 some odd jumps... and you are already jumping a highly loaded eliptical canopy. Now with only 60 jumps on your high performance eliptical you want to got to a tri-brace Velocity. Its that progression a little fast? A velocity is like a high experience level canopy. There isn't much room for error. This doesn't sound like the best idea, but hell its your life your body. Speed Kills...Be Safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #8 February 2, 2002 I am a very good canopy pilot with all standup landings. Again if I wanted opinions on the safety of my decision I would ask. I fly the Diablo at 1.7 just fine and am very comfortable and carefull. Again for those of you that aren't listening. I will stay at my current wing loading what I am looking for is info on the bottom end of the tri braced canopies. All I want is more flight envelope at the bottom end. I am guessing if I get a xaos or velocity and load it at 1.7 I will get a much sweeter bottom end. RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 February 2, 2002 QuoteI am a very good canopy pilot with all standup landings. Right, I used to say the same thing untill too much bottom end lift put me out of the air for 6 weeks due to a ankle injury that still has'nt healed. (Thats at 260 jumps on a Cobalt 150 @1.25:1) I'll go in to a Canopy Nazi speech if you don't watch it on this issue.Have you talked to your STA about your canopy selection? I'd love to see any STA encourage a low time jumper to go at that loading at less then 500 jumps.As for the answer, get a 9 cell, any 9 cell will be better then a 7 at that loading. Crossed braced is'nt needed till about ~2.0:1. Look at a Sabre2, Cobalt, Crossfire, or even a regular Sabre.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #10 February 2, 2002 QuoteAgain if I wanted opinions on the safety of my decision I would ask.By posting your experience level and wingloading on a public forum you are leaving yourself open to people commenting on the wisdom of those choices. Your decision, your body, your life... but if you don't want to hear people's opinions, don't post things that will spark them to comment. 200-ish jumps and 60-ish stand up landings at 1.7 isn't, imho, anywhere near the experience needed to safely handle a crossbraced canopy, and I know many very experienced swoopers who would agree with me on that. But hey, what do they know, right?QuoteI am guessing if I get a xaos or velocity and load it at 1.7 I will get a much sweeter bottom end.Why guess? Try getting a demo and find out for yourself. Have you considered a Cobalt/Crossfire/Stiletto/Samurai/Vengeance or equivalent nine cell elliptical at the same loading? You'll likely get what you're looking for without the downsides of the full-blown swoop machines - i.e. unpredictable openings (ever had to chop that Diablo? Ever had to chop any canopy??) and extremely twitchy handling. The Diablo is a sweet canopy, but it wasn't really designed to be loaded that heavy - the manufacturer specs a 1.5 wing loading as the maximum for a 110, and generally the manufacturers of canopies know what they are talking about. In addition, regardless of wingloading a seven cell just isn't going to swoop like a nine cell. A nine cell is more of a wing, a seven cell is more of an aerodynamic decelerator.pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scotty 0 #11 February 2, 2002 first off you a statistic waiting to happen, 1.7 wing loading with 200+ jumps . you dont have the awareness or the flight time, if somebody cuts you off on final and you yank the toggle you WILL kill yourself. you have no business jumping a cross-braced canopy for a least another 800+ jumps if you survive that long. the best thing you can do is buy a bigger canopy so if you make a mistake it wont be fatal. dont be in a rush to do the big swoops ,you will learn when you ready.blue skysScotty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #12 February 2, 2002 I'm approaching 300 jumps.. 60 on my diablo110, 30 on a diablo120, 10 on an fx114, 15 or so on a sabre 120, 15 or so on a sabre 135, 150 on a triathlon150, and a few more to boot. I have all standup landings. I appreciate everyones concern for my safety. I am touched, really... What I asked for is info on the flight characteristics of the tribraced vs diablo class. Please already.. This is not a pissing contest. And damn the lecturing... Take it somewhere else.. I'm looking for information here not opinions on my canopy flight skill. How many that have answered here have ALL standup landings?? Just curious?? Helpfull information that I am asking for is welcomed and appreciated.. RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #13 February 2, 2002 Have you jumped a highly loaded elliptical canopy??Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #14 February 2, 2002 Good info.. Thanks.. Rhino..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #15 February 2, 2002 I've seen 300 jump wonders fly circles around 2000 jump gods that couldn't land on there feet 8 out of 10 times. It isn't a matter of jumps it is a matter of skill level and feel. Spare me the newbie speech please..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 February 2, 2002 Scotty,I didn't say anything about swooping. a good 6 out of 10 jumps I hop and pop from altitude 13,000 feet . If you do the math I have as much flight time as a ????? jumper.. Not only that but I make it a point to try and learn something everytime I am in the harness.. I stay OUT of traffic and in no way shape or form do I put anyone in danger. I learn the envelope of any canopy I strap my ass into very quickly ESPECIALLY the slow flight characteristics.. Half of what makes a smart pilot is not putting yourself in a bad situation to begin with.. After all my life depends on it. You have no business telling me I have no business.. I wouldn't go near another person in the air for 40 jumps on my diablo110.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #17 February 2, 2002 QuotePlease already.. This is not a pissing contest. And damn the lecturing... Take it somewhere else.. You're right, this is not a pissing contest. But it is a public forum, and it is a moderated forum. If you don't like the answers you're getting here, take your questions somewhere else. pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #18 February 2, 2002 QuoteI've seen 300 jump wonders fly circles around 2000 jump gods that couldn't land on there feet 8 out of 10 times. It isn't a matter of jumps it is a matter of skill level and feel. Spare me the newbie speech please..Yes, all this is true, however this response more than anything else is the language of someone who is going to end up dead or in the hospital.. It's just a matter of time.Talk to the guys who win the swoop competitions. The multiple thousand jump gods who can swoop circles around you. They may agree that you are ready for a canopy at that size and wing loading. I'm not even going to dispute that point. But their attitude is always that they can still learn, and still benefit from the experience of others. When you blow people off as you have just done, you are a making yourself into a statistic waiting to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scotty 0 #19 February 2, 2002 you only have 200+ landings ( the important part) ask any top canopy pilot in the world, they will tell you that your being stupid. when i had 200 jumps i made a bad decision at 1000ft which led to a low turn that i should not have walked away from, i hit so hard peaple stopped running because they thought i was dead. im glad i was only at a 1.25 wing loadingIf your going to be stupid, you better be TUFF!!!!!!!Scotty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velocity 0 #20 February 2, 2002 Hi Rhino,I didn´t jump a Diablo yet (because I live in Europe and Diablos and Tris are not very common here), however I made so far 250 jumps on a Velocity 111 (my exit weight is 255 lbs) and I also have some experience on Spectres (maybe comparable to diablos???) and I like to reply to your question of whether you get a better bottom end flare on a Velocity compared to the Diablo. The answer most probably is: YES. With this regard, I think it is very helpful to know more about the flight characteristics of the Velocity.I am now 15 years in the sport and I have tried out quite a lot of different parachute designs but in my opinion nothing comes close to the VE. With its somewhat disconcerting "dancing" openings and its immense ground hungriness (probably due to the quite long line set) the Velocity is really special. It´s a lot of fun if you are alone in the air but it gets a nightmare when there is traffic around. I am doing a lot of tandem videos from a C 206, that means I really do not have to care about traffic and anything else and I can concentrate on getting this tiny baby landed.The interesting thing is that I frequently find myself flying the landing pattern (from 1200 feet) in half to 3/4 brakes, then I make either straight in´s or slightly aggressive toggle turn approaches. In any case I find the speed on final always more than impressive. The landings, however, compared to other parachutes are very easy. The flare is tremendous and you get really long swoops. I assume this is due to the rigidity (caused by the xbraces) the wing offers. It makes it very predictable and also reactive to toggle input. I agree with you regarding jump numbers. I also know many jumpers who have a considerable number of jumps but do know a few about canopy flight. However, I find 200 jumps not at all sufficient to even think about a Velocity. Why do you want have such a special parachute? The big disadvantage of a Velocity is its limited versatility. It is great for high speed landings but anything else....???? you really need to be a very experienced long time jumper to deal with its disadvantages (very steep glide angle, openings to really get accustomed on etc.) PD is right in its ad: When you JUST have to swoop ... then go for the Velocity. To be very clear on that: I really love my Velocity but when I go jumping on crowded boogies I take my second canopy. A Heatwave 135. Nice openings and no hassle or stress!.After all, there is one final verdict to me: It´s the pilot, not the canopy!I have seen in the early nineties Bruno Brokken flying his Sabre 170 (nowadays probably a beginner´s canopy) in Ampuria. He swooped it farther than , I would say, 95 percent of all today´s so called highly experienced canopy pilot´s with their VX, FX, VE, Stiletto, Crossfire, Nitro etc.All the best,Holger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #21 February 2, 2002 Good info.. Thank you for the input.. This is what I am looking for.. RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #22 February 2, 2002 You aren't answering the question I asked Lisa, You are in fact moderating a pissing contest.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #23 February 2, 2002 I always talk to the guys who fly circles around me. Charlie Mullins for example. I have gotten tons of advise from him. That is why I play up high. That is why I study the way a canopy reacts the way that I do. Apparently I am taken wrong here. I am VERY carefull and calculating.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #24 February 2, 2002 I'm glad you are o.k. Scotty.. Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #25 February 2, 2002 QuoteYou are in fact moderating a pissing contestIf this is so, it's because you are making it so. This is a public forum. You posted your experience level and wingloading; people who hold opinions different from yours about the wisdom of your choices have responded to that with their opinions. That's the way a public forum works; everyone is free to chime in with their opinions. If you don't like the answers you are getting here, take your questions somewhere else. If you don't want to read what you feel to be "lectures"... don't read or respond to the posts that you feel are "lecturing". pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
