Sabre II vs. Safire?

[Jimbo 0]

Anyone flown both the Sabre2 and Safires of similar sizes? I'm curious how the Sabre 2 compares to the Safire with regards to forward speed, glide, turns, landings, etc...
Thanks for the responses so far, maybe I should have mentioned, I have a Safire now. I'm more curious to know how to Sabre 2 compares to that.
Thanks,
Jim

[brits17 0]

errr, from what i've heard, sabre 2 isn't *much* diff from the original sabre, except better openings. i myself own a safire and put about 300 jumps on it... its mediocre, i was gung-ho about it in the beginning, but now i'm pretty bored with it. only gets good surf when i front riser the landings, and it slams me occasionally, but i'd recommend it, its a good canopy and i definitely prefer it over the original sabre. anyway, just my .02. my solution? heh, get a crossbraced, now we're talkin ;) C Ya!
Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
C-31392

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Disclaimer - I am no expert in canopies, skydiving or anything else for that matter - when in doubt ask your current/former instructor and the canopy manufacturers.
Jumped both - when I started with SDC, they still had the Safires as the student canopy and about half way through my training - in July or so - started the switch to Sabre 2's.
After I finished building my rig (sans main), alot of people mentioned to get a used main since I will probably grow tired of it within a year and look to downsize - I picked up one of the retired student Safire 169's to play with (Loaded at about 1.2 to 1.3).
Ok history aside... (these are opinions and hardly objective in any way shape or form)
The Safire appears to be very 'divey' in turns, requiring little toggle pressure to get a fast spiral going. Another poster mentioned getting slammed - my 169 came with this huge-assed slider I swear came off of a tandem canopy - I don't have to do any funkys with the nose or anything, and I get a consistent 7 second, really soft openning out of it. *shrug* The flare ability in normal glide is blah - actually, the glide angle is blah too - I ended up with along spot with a friend who jumped out after me (using a Sabre 2) and openning a slight bit higher - he made it back - I ended up doing an unexpected demo jump for the Christmas tree farm about 3/4 of a mile from the DZ - you should have saw the kids running over. :)
The first thing you'll notice with a Safire of the same size to a Sabre 2 is the Sabre 2 is alot faster feeling in forward speed - you can actually hear the wind difference right after you let off the breaks. The flare is alot better on the Sabre 2 as well - you can surf in a straight in landing in no wind conditions, on the Safire, you are pretty much coming straight down - at least the ground seems to come up alot faster. The Sabre2 also seems to dive less in a turn, but seems to turn more slowly for approximately equal toggle pressure.
If you can get a used Safire cheap and want to use it as a stair step canopy to the ellipticals (which is what I am doing - looking for an equally (i.e lightly) loaded Cobalt as the next one) - I say try it out - but if you want something that takes advantage of advances in canopy design, not looking to jump to full elliptical for some time and expect it will last you a while - the Sabre 2 is hard to beat - and I bet it will hold resale value for some time. I only got slammed by the Sabre2 once, but it was self pack job I nicked name before the jump, 'Malfunction Waiting to Happen' - after the slamming, the risers crossed right in front of my face and both of the bitch slapped me ;)
I guess ask around (including your former instructors), contact the manufactures for demos and go for a spin :)
I figure if it opens, lands you alive without a trip to the ER - it's a good canopy :)

[PhreeZone 15]

Part of the reason a Safire 169 seems to go faster then a Sabre2 170 is by PD's measueing scale the Safire is really more like a 160 or even 155. Icuraus and PD use 2 different measuring techniques to get square footage. I quick search of this fourm will show you a lot on this topic. Basically a Safire is 5-10% smaller then its advertized. Although RiggerRob said that Icurus was changing their method soon, so if you get a new 169 it might be the same size as a PD 170. And Grumpy, in the spring if you still want a Cobalt, look me up mine will be for sale. Its the size you are looking for too
I'm not sure what to put here right now.....

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Well that explains why the ground feels like it is rushing up at me when I go in to land :) If that's the case, then Safires also handles serious line twists in a docile and predictable fashion at 1.3+ wing loadings :)
Thanx on the offer dude, will be demoing a 170 Cobalt this weekend (fingers crossed it shows up when they promised), and if it's docile compared to the Safire 169, I might try a 150 later in the spring. If the 170 suits me fine, I will certainly give your offer to sell some serious thought.

[rogue108 0]

I haven't flown either canopy, so I can't give an accurate comparsion, but a I have heard several individuals complain about the Safires lack of flare power. They also say the Safire opens nice and soft. I haven't heard too much about the Sabre2 yet to say anything about it. The only thing I have heard is that its similar to a classic Sabre with lighter toggle and riser pressure and better openings.
About the Cobalt. I found my Cobalt 170 demo to be pretty docile when I loaded it at 1.2. It seemed to have excellent glide and a nice strong flare. A friend of mine who flies a Safire 189 tried my Cobalt 170 demo and found them very similar in turns and toggle and riser pressure. Probably due to Safire being smaller than listed the sizing. The only difference he found was that the Cobalt was a whole lot stronger in the flare.

[Watcher 0]

The no flare on a Safire is very untrue. The Safire has a very powerful flare, but its longer and deeper than PDs so most people dont finish their flares to the Stall point (bad piloting skills, and are forced to run it out or biff when they actually still have alot of potential power left). I have a friend that jumps a 119 and he can outswoop alot of the guys that are flying FXs and Velocitys cause hes takeing the canopy to the limit, its all about technique. Ill hopefully be flying a 119 this weekend and let you know what i feel about it.
Jonathan

[brits17 0]

to phreezone: you're right on the money dude with the canopy sizing...
to watcher: i'd have to disagree... if you have to dig in deep brakes every time on the safire, the flare is not powerful. when i can get a good surf out of it is only when i front riser it, but if i come in on a straight-in approach, i have to crank down the toggles.
but again, every canopy's different... just my experience :) C ya!
Blue Skies,
Brittany S!
C-31392

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Re: Surf with Safire - ditto that thought - if there is any sort of wind, and I am doing a straight in approach, I look down and 20 feet ahead of that point is where I'm gonna land - I've nicknamed the canopy my 'Tapered round' - I bury the toggles on landing and set straight down, whereas with the Sabre2 - you could be in for a bit of a jog if you put your feet down too soon.
On the otherhand, with the Safire I did a 1/4 braked gliding (rather than hooked) 180 turn from downwind to final at about 200 feet (it was that or cut off 2 other canopys on final) and ended up surfing a good 30 feet and went 'Wow' that was kewl! Seems ya gotta be willing to trade altitude for speed to get any surf outta the Safire, cuz the flare doesn't seem to do it on a simple straight in.
Not that I'm of a bad opinion of the canopy, I did buy one. I guess to sum up my opinion of the 2 - the Safire turns quicker than a Sabre2, yet the Sabre2 has a flatter glide angle. *Shrug*
Just an opinion, and a subjective one at that :)

[Watcher 0]

True it could be that every canopy is different, also depends on what your used too. I flew a Pro Series by Flight Concepts for awhile which also has a deep long flare that basically quicker to the shoulders to plane out, then a slow progressive downward stroke to the stall point, which resulted in a good landing. I had a Safire in AFF and did not have problems with a straight in approach (granted it was a big 189), and now i come in straight its with double front riser cause i typically want speed. Now if we are talking high performance id go with Precisions Nitron, much superior canopy.
Jonathan

[freeflyguy 0]

Well guys.
I like my safire. What I can say about it is that the flare is just fine. I do see so many people that don't finish their flare. That means, yes, get deep in the brakes. Keep going into the brakes until the canopy stops. It may be different than a sabre, but that is all. My safire loaded at 1.5 can surf across the moon, and still stop without having to run it out much.
Check out the picture I attached, you can see I am not that deep in the brakes, and the canopy had a lot left in it before it stopped.
Granted, a safire may be different, but not everybody wants apples all the time, an orange is good too. Opens nice, turns nice, flys smooth, and I think they are a great canopy.
Have fun.

[alan 1]

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Re: Surf with Safire - ditto that thought - if there is any sort of wind, and I am doing a straight in approach, I look down and 20 feet ahead of that point is where I'm gonna land - I've nicknamed the canopy my 'Tapered round' - I bury the toggles on landing and set straight down

Without having seen you fly your canopy it is difficult to give a proper analysis of your technique, but your comment above hints at why you have not been satisfied with the landings of your Safire. It does have a powerful flare, but it is done differently and is at a different point in the stroke than what many people are accustomed to with PD canopies. It takes lots of jumps to really learn how to land any canopy and it helps to have coaching and video, so a few pointers in a short paragraph or two will only serve to help get you started. Instead of flaring all at once, try this, bearing in mind that wind, turbulence, temperature, humidty, etc. will be cause for adjustments.
At a lower altitude than you are probably used to (~10'), do a smooth, but short and relatively quick flare to _your_canopies "sweet spot". This is usually at about shoulder height with your toggles, but you will have to experiment to find it on "your" canopy. I experiment up high on my first jumps on a new canopy. This will get you under the canopy and plane it out. You should end up only a foot or two above the ground and find it necessary to bend your legs slightly to keep your feet off the ground. Now you need to very smoothly apply just enough brakes to keep "surfing". Do it too fast, or jerky and you will create a lot of drag and lose your lift, dropping you to the ground with too much forward momentum. Do it too slow and you will not create enough lift to keep you from sinking into the ground. Do it too high and you will plane out and do your surf so high you drop to the ground when you finish the flare. Do it too low and you either do a face plant or you have to "dig it out" with a full, fast, one stage flare that leaves you with a butt slide. Do it smoothly and at the proper rate at the correct altitude, you will surf until additional input begins to feel "soft". On the Safire, this deeper into the stroke than on most canopies. In my experience, pretty near the hips, but this will vary based on wing loading, wind, etc.. Now you finish the flare to the full stroke and put your feet down. A common mistake is putting the feet down too early, while the canopy still has more than enough speed to fly. Remember, when you put your feet down, that will effectively"unload" the canopy and it will want to continue flying now that it is not so heavily loaded. Keep flying it and remember, keep the wings level.
The moral to all of this? Each canopy has flight characteristics that may require different techniques in order to be flown properly. It takes study and practice to learn how to fly a canopy to its full potential. It is easy to attribute poor/inferior flight characteristics to a canopy when in many cases, the pilot does not have the knowledge, skill, or experience to properly fly "that" canopy. My daughter was becoming unhappy with her Safire 149. She was trying to fly it like a PD 170. We had some "ground school". We got some video of her landings. We put a radio back on her for some real time coaching. Result? At about a 1.1 to 1 wing loading, she now gets much better surfs/landings than most of the more experienced jumpers on the DZ, using a straight in approach into the wind.
alan

[freeflir29 0]

Alan- So why does everyone keep saying that these canopies fly so differen't than PD products yet the landing you describe is exactly the way I have landed almost every canopy I have ever flown. I have a PD-190 loaded at 1.3:1 and the brakes are adjusted so that the sweet spot is with my arms held straight out from my shoulders (Arms fully extended) From there I let it glide until I start to lose lift then shut the canopy down with slow even pressure on the toggles all the way to my waist. Whats so differen't? Could it be as my Dad says.....Son, every airplane lands the same......flare at 1/4 inch.....LMAO
"and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Alan,
Thanks on the pointers. I remember seeing what you were describing as 'bumping the sweet spot' in Big Air Sportz Owners manual - but never really put 2 and 2 together that what I noticed at altitude when doing a control check (bringing the toggles down to shoulder level quickly to confirm it can flare, causing me to swing forward somewhat) was exactly this. I feel enlightened :)
I'll wait till there's a few feet of snow on the landing area before trying it near the ground (but will give a number of shots at altitude until then). Thank you kindly.

[freeflyguy 0]

I'm not Alan, but my 2 cents.
It seems people often get caught up in trying to "Read The Manual" to learn to fly a canopy. That may help, but getting lots of practice and "feeling" what it is doing can go a long way in learning a new canopy. It seems some may say the Safire is bad, just because it is different than what they are used too.
When I first jumped the XAOS part of Andy's advice was "Fly it like a parachute". The might sound over simple, but what he was saying is feel what it needs to do, don't just listen to set of rules that says 'it dives this much', or 'turns this quick'. He also said more specific things too, but he knows where I am at, skill level wise and such. He also said, "Fly it like a human". That means, 'Don't be stupid'. Translation 101.

[alan 1]

Quote

Alan- So why does everyone keep saying that these canopies fly so differen't than PD products yet the landing you describe is exactly the way I have landed almost every canopy I have ever flown. I have a PD-190 loaded at 1.3:1 and the brakes are adjusted so that the sweet spot is with my arms held straight out from my shoulders (Arms fully extended) From there I let it glide until I start to lose lift then shut the canopy down with slow even pressure on the toggles all the way to my waist. Whats so differen't?

The answer could become quit long and involved......I'll try to avoid that. You mention that what I describe is exactly the way you have landed almost every canopy you have ever flown. "exactly" Really? I have nearly 2000 jumps over more than 10 years on canopies too numerous to list. Mantas, Cruiselites, Falcons, PDs, Sabres, Stilettos, Jedeis.......FXs, and VXs, to name just a few. I have flown these canopies at wing loadings from .7 to 2.5 and none of them flew/landed exactly like the others. There are three basic methods of landing/flaring a canopy (four if you count the ultra high performance rear riser flare being used now). The full flare or single stage, a two stage and a three stage. Experience level, canopy type, wing loading, conditions and type of landing desired are some of the factors in choosing the type of flare. A 170# student under a Manta in light winds, doing a straight in approach will generally have the best results with a full or single stage flare. An experienced jumper under a Safire at 1.7#/ft2, doing a cross wind landing will generally opt for the 3 stage flare. A novice under a Triathlon in moderately gusty winds at 1.2#/ft2, will generally be using a two stage flare with success.
So what makes the 3 stage flare on the Safire so different from a Sabre II? How deep or where in the stroke that things happen. The PD canopies I have jumped tend to have the first stage sweet spot, of the three stage flare, very high.....meaning the first six inches or so of brakes produces a noticeable change in the canopies flight. On the other hand, in my experience with Icarus canopies, they tend not to show much reaction at all in the first six inches, but after that I see more response with less additional input. Of course, how the canopy is set up will have an influence as well, so let's just assume the manufacturers settings for purposes of comparison. The stall point on the Icarus canopy is very deep, with the stongest flare coming just above the stall point. On a similarly sized/loaded Sabre, the stall point will be comparatively a little higher and the stongest part of the flare is more to the middle of the stroke and not so near the end.
So yes, the same techniques are used but the difference is in the how much, where and when. Sometimes, the differences are very subtle and difficult for even a very experienced jumper to discern, sometimes they are pretty obvious. I hope this has explained my perspective without getting too detailed and boring.
alan

[flyinryan 0]

This is the sort of information that I am trying to find in this type of forum. I have spent hours looking for articles on flight techniques and aerodynamics. I think it is also safe to assume anyone reading these posts is the same way. So do not worry about a post getting "too detailed boring", any information that you feal like sharing is greatly aprecieated. I think I can speak for all of the newer jumpers when I say that it is real cool when the more experinced guys share their knowlage. So CobaltDan, Riggerrob, Alan, Skymonkeyone, and any of the other long time jumpers who are knowlageable about cannopy flight and design thank you for the information that you have provided and please continue to do so. The information is NEVER "too detailed boring".

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Alan,
Mucho thanx on the advice..I tried it out on Sunday and all I can say is WOW! Totally different behavior, especially from the quick toggle down action to the sweet spot - for my canopy it seemed to be around the shoulders or so...then it took a slower/finer movement through position 2 to get it to stay planed out (it actually covered some ground, I normally, with a straight 1-2-3, put down right next to the peas on a no wind day, this time I overshot them by about 30 feet!) then a smooth push to a deep 3 and set the canopy down. Two strides to run off the remaining speed and I was one happy camper with 4 consistent stand up landings Sunday - all on a no wind day too.
I even got to start steering the canopy with shifting my weight, this is way too cool.
Thank you very much again.

[cobaltdan 0]

this thread sort of went the direction of flare technique and in reading a few of the posts i thought reposting the below might be useful.
it was original from a thread called balance and canopy excercises:
i would like to explain a simple concept for canopy control as i think it would benefit some learning jumpers:
on student gear most people are taught a 2 stage flare, when you transition to your first slightly smaller 9 cell zpo sport canopy, you may not have good luck
with what you have been taught.
flaring is not something you gauge with the position of your hands !
instead understand that you are suspended under your canopy, a weight on a string somewhat like a pendulum. you can tell what you are doing by > feel <, by
where you are weighted under your canopy. i.e. if you are weighted back you are diving, centered you are in level flight, etc...
up high, it is a good routine to unstow your brakes and get a feel for where you are weighted in full flight, then flare slowly until you feel yourself in level flight,
then flare more and feel what it is like to over flare, swinging towards the front and stall. try the same with turns, ie. a 90 or 180 turn planeing out into level
flight. this exercise is not about sight, you are trying to get a feel for what you are doing without using visual indicators. if you are in completely clear airspace
and high try it with your eyes closed for several seconds.
once you understand this concept and expand your window of perception to include how your canopy feels during different flight, landings will click. you will be
able to understand what you are doing right or wrong.
this last year i have given allot of canopy coaching, and most beginners and surprisingly many intermediates have not been taught the above. they believe
there is a set place for your hands to be during a set timing on landing. they try to figure this out so it can be repeated on subsequent jumps. you may figure
your canopy out this way but it wont help you when you land your canopy under different conditions than you are used to, or when you demo jump a different
canopy. developing your awareness of balance is key to being a good canopy pilot.
i test jump a lot of prototypes and on every jump i go through a routine. loosen chest strap, stow slider, check brakes, then fly a series of maneuvers as per
above to get a feel for the canopy. i want to imprint the feel of the canopy up high so that the canopy and i react the way i want on landing. (btw when i say
check brakes: i like to unstow the brakes and watch the trailing edge as i slowly flare stopping at the point where the tail just starts to tension and pull under.
then i look at where the toggles are in relation to the keeper. i like to know they are even (and how much slack there is in case i need to change them)).
food for thought.
sincerely,
dan
atair
www.extremefly.com
it will make more sense after you let the idea sink in, watch a few people land and then try it up high.
when i say level flight i was referring to level flight, parallel to the ground.
you can feel the difference between full flight and level flight. this is much more pronounced on a small canopy, but none the less you can tell.
try to be aware of your balance in full flight, then make a hard turn and let the canopy recover and slowly flare. you will feel yourself pitch back and then
recover to neutral and then pitch up. you will also get input from the change in wind speed on your face or ears.
kind of similar to learning to ride a bike. if you only relied on a visual indicator to determine if you are falling to a side you would never be able to ride, but by
using your sence of balance it becomes an automatic reaction.
when landing you use visual indications to determine your height, and this sence of balance gives you feedback to where you are in your recovery arc.
dzbone asked if there is a way check if what you feel as level flight is realy level flight. well basically every time you land you get verification. the ground is the
surest reference point. try your current landing technique and try to think about the balance thing while you do it.
even large lightly loaded 9 cell canopies can swoop a bit. basically in full flight you are slightly pitched back (indicating a slight dive) when you flare the canopy
it will pitch you to a neutral position and the canopy will fly level (swoop) for a short bit and if you continue to flare you will pitch forward, stopping your
forward speed and level flight, stopping you or poping you up a bit. to sustain a swoop you can not continue to flare beyond that required to put the canopy
into level flight.
goes without saying, but: dont do anything down low unless you have practiced it high and are being safe.
i am providing this info to encourage good awareness & technique, not to encourage beginers to try to swoop.
sincerely,
dan

[Geoff 0]

On the subject of the Safire flare - Icarus were planning a revised brake configuration on the Safire to improve the flare. I received an email from them I guess 4 or 5 months ago saying that the mod would only make any difference at wing loadings above 1.4.
I've heard no more from them since then, but I guess they've been busy with all the Crossfire hassle.
But the implication was that they considered the flare to be OK below 1.4 loading, but it could be improved for loadings above that.
Personally, I've done my last 200 jumps on a Safire at 1.6ish loading. The flare seemed totally adequate to me.
I have to admit I jumped a Cobalt at the weekend, and the flare was a lot easier and more powerful.
Nothing wrong with the Safire, but the Cobalt was definitely easier to land.
Geoff

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Geoff: are there lots of cobat in the UK.?. cant say that I've seen any...
Remi
Muff 914

[Geoff 0]

I'm pretty sure there are only a handful of Cobalts in the UK. (and one of them is mine now. hee hee!)
Contact Bryn Chaffe at Peterlee (details here) if you're interested- he's the official dealer and he has some demos, though I don't know what sizes.
Cheers
Geoff