New Ninja from PdF

[jacobwaerness 0]

Has anyone heard anything about or tried the new "cross-ribbed" canopy "Ninja" from Parachutes de France? The manufacturer claims that they have made a canopy that packs smaller, is easier to land and is cheaper compared to competing products as Velocity, FX etc.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Someone was asking about that main earlier in the year. One guy thought they were talking about the yet-to-be produced Brian Germain Big Air Sportz canopy that, I guess, is going to be called the same thing.
I can tell you with authority that there has not been one jumped on the competition swooping circuit yet, nor have I heard of any fellow competitor having ever seen one in person. The last time I checked the PdF website, there was no mention of the parachute. Personally, I would love to see another tri-brace on the market; especially one that outclasses the Icarus and PD products currently available.
Chuck

[BenW 0]

The ninja is definately out there. Christophe from PdeF was at the Langar Boogie in May with a whole load of canopies/rigs to demo, amongst them was the Ninja 97 (I think). Not being a skygodlet, I stuck with the Springo and Electra, but there were favourable reports from those that did jump the Ninja.
That's all I know. It's definately being produced and sold.
B.

[Kirils 1]

The Ninja has been on the Parachutes of France Web site for a while now. My question is how do I get one here in the US? My inquires to vavious distributors said "they do not sell in the US!". Bummer.....
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[RemiAndKaren 0]

From the brochure and talking to the reps in France...
The Ninja is a 7 cell tri braced (or 21 depending how you want to count) (like the Velocity and FX)
PDF is not positioning it as an extreme canopy to compete with them. They have designed it to be a high performace, very solid canopy, but not aimed at the extreme performance of the Velocity and Extremes (sorry Chuck...)...
I think its a marketing blunder myself... its gonna be more expensive, larger to pack (I cant see the claim about lower volume anywhere and cant imagine how!) then a Stileto, Cobalt, xfire and even springo, but not in the same caliber then the Velocity and extremes? Who will want that?
They didnt have a single one at Espace boogie which lots of people found strange.... being the biggest European boogie in PDF turf...
And yes, they wont sell in the US: PDF is owned by a large hi tech/millitary corp and would have money to sue them for, and they dont want the exposure in the lawsuit crazed US...
I've got a french pasport, so I'm allowed to insult the french (dont one of you dare! ): very strange and f**ked up...
Remi
Muff 914

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

[can't get them in the US....
Not true actually. The enterprising skydiver who really wants PdeF stuff doesn't have any problem getting it. Every single "micro" sized rig on display at the PIA this year had the Techno 90-something reserve. I think it is a 95 or a 97. It was made perfectly clear to my buddies there that if they wanted one (or anything else PdeF actually) they could get it for them. I really wasn't interested, but I know people who bought that reserve. That being said, if people wanted the Ninja here, then they could certainly get it. I would just like to see one.
Chuck

[marcin 0]

The 4way team from our DZ just got their new Atom Legend containers and Ninja! 85-s (nice neon orange with dark blue stripes). I've only seen a few landings this weekend. The guys said that they fly well in brakes (long spot), there was one hard opening (packing- nose not pushed in), one slight line twist that untwisted itself, but he said he started to feel heavy g-forces right away. They haven't dialed them in, so landings were from easy 90 degree turns. Ninja at this wing loading (2.2-2.3) flies very fast, dives very steep and requires toggle input to plain out. Surfs were relatively long, but again to early to say how it compares to say FX. 85 packs like a Springo 120 (something in between Stiletto 107 and 120).
BTW (slightly off the subject) - I fly Impulse 120 (@1.8), switched from Stiletto a month or so ago. This is the European name for Cobalt (although there are some slight difference apparently, that do not affect the flying characteristics). I am really extremally pleased with it, put about 40 jumps so far. Flare is amazing and its so easy to pilot. Had some problems with the openings (3 line twists in the first 9 jumps - all flew straight and very stable). I was packing it as my Stiletto and the opening was so slow that the weigh shift caused it to twist - I dont look up when flying with camera and just didnt feel anything during the first 2-3 seconds it was so slow. A guy with Alpha showed me how he packs. I now do not quarter or pull the slider but just leave it in the back completely, almost don't roll the tail and had no problems since. It sits me up and sniwels, but without shaking and when I get bored and grab the risers the sliders comes down. With reaching up I can actually speed up the deployment notably. Its ability to fly at low speeds is very remarkable, it still keeps me up in the air even at the very end of the swoop, when I almost stop, in no-wind. Front riser pressure managable, but after 360 degrees its impossible to keep, unless I pull the other riser as well. The fabrick feels almost like paper, its thick, so I guess packs a bit bulkier then french canopies, but on the other hand its very easy to handle so you can squeezee al the air out of it and it wont move around.

m.

[cobaltdan 0]

hi marcin,
the impulse, alpha and space are all names for the same canopy.
the cobalt is based our same proven planform and airfoil with the following primary difference:
top skin is constructed from 18 panels instead of 9. this creates a cleaner airfoil and enables us to slightly rehape the panels to induce a stress pattern in the top skin, thus reducing distortion and increasing efficiency. this is very noticable at high wingloadings, less at low loadings.
sincerely,
dan
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

[marcin 0]

Dan
Stane would only sell me Impulse and indeed he explained the difference in the loadability etc. I actually visited Atair factory and was impressed by his knowledge (great personality as well!) and commitment to quality. Anyway my Impulse is just great, I wish I could at least try a Cobalt, but apparently I would need to do it through USA (you), so... I may switch to 105 or 95 at some point but I guess even at that loading it wont make a huge difference (Impulse vs. Cobalt)for a "regular" jumper like me.
m.

[Geoff 0]

Cobalts are available in Europe: from http://www.performance-variable.com and http://www.dirtdive.co.uk among others.
But I've been quoted silly prices so far - more expensive than for an Icarus Crossfire, which is disapointing.
geoff

[wes 0]

Goeff
I have had the same very high prices quoted for the Cobalt,more expensive than a Crossfire or Stilletto/Vengence,which is dissappointing as they are made in Europe!!!
I am now thinking about a Spingo or a Ninja.
Iwould be interested to hear Cobaltdans views on this.
Cheers Wes

[maretus 0]

I don't think that performance variables 1.550,75 EUR is such a high price for cobalt, since here in Finland Crossfire costs 1878,10 EUR (Taxes included) and Vengeance pays 1,801.73 EUR (Excluding taxes !).
Is that 1.550,75 EUR from perfomance variable with or without taxes etc ?
I'd also like to hear from cobaltdan (or anybody else), what would be the easiest and cheapest way to get Cobalt in Europe and what would that price be ?

[Geoff 0]

The Performance Variable web site says E1550.75 for a Cobalt 120, but when I emailed them and asked them to confirm the price, they replied DM3518.28 or about E1800. I would guess the difference is the tax.
Seems very expensive anyway.
Geoff

[Aviatrr 0]

Can't you just order a Cobalt from a US dealer, such as Skykat? They sell 'em for, I think, $1600US, which would be around E1500 I think....plus a little more for shipping.. Will the US dealers not sell them to you overseas?
Mike

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Quote

$1600US, which would be around E1500 I think

Sory Mike..... thats about 1,750 EURO.. and thats at the official rate, the banks rates will be higher.....
Remi
Muff 914

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

thats about 1,750 EURO.. and thats at the official rate, the banks rates will be higher

Ahh, I must've gone the wrong way with the conversion......I never was any good at that.. Makes me wonder how many times I've been screwed on conversion rates in other countries...
Mike

[RemiAndKaren 0]

LOL.. I'm the same ... that why I always use http://www.xe.net/ucc/
Remi
Muff 914

[skydog 2]

When the canopies are imported to the UK they attract VAT
@ 17.5% plus Import Duty @ 6% plus tax on the postage and
packaging (I kid you not) so whatever price you get quoted you will have to add at least 23.5% to the price. Unless you can get someone to bring back one for you.
Also for you info the canopies are shipped from slovenia to the US and then exported again.
Having checked you will also find that the Cobalts are matched if not cheaper than other similar canopies in the UK. And whilst the £ is strong against the $, unlike a month ago the price has been reduced.
These are just some of the factors when looking at the price.

[roq 0]

I tested the new canopie Ninja 94 of Parachute of France and my personal opinion is the following:
Technical elements on the calote (that I measured).

The canopie is a tricel 7 cel, with real AR of 2.90 to 3, it is the maximum that I know in HP canopies. Has 94 Sq feet in fact, which not always it happens with some other makers that don't inform the true area.
The trim, or attack angle is more inclined in the 3 cells of the center and less in the outside cells. Will it be for to avoid the spin and twist?
With relationship to the construction, the canopie is different from everything that I know in tricels canopies. The crossed panels are sewn close the connections of the lines and sewn along whole the cord of the top skin, at 1/4 of the cell without any other one vertical panel for besides the normal to the center of the cell.
The platform of the wing is slightly tapered, seems almost square, has little elliptic curvature but this seems symmetrical among the leading edge and trailing edge.
I didn't already like only the great volume of the canopy, which and normal for this construction type, and a certain difficulty in the packing, for the same reason.
In flight:
Load for 1.85
Packing: Standard Propack
Aligned Opennings but with excessive snack force (almost a kick in the behind). A lot of snivel.
Canopie non twist.
Slope down or Gliding Ratio very flat.
Hard front risers pressure.
Very short recovery arch, swoop difficult.
Flare easy to control
Summary:
Qualities: opennings and aligned flight, non twist, good flare, good rigidity and stability in flight.
Defects: Excessive snack forces and snivel, short recovery arch, heavy front risers.
My experience: 1800 jumps
Personal canopie Cobalt 85 load 2.2
Experience other HP canopies: Cobalt85, Alpha 94, Contrail 95, 105, 120, 135, Nitro 88, Stilleto 120,135,150, BT 40, BT50, BT For 120, Viper 105, Jedei 105. Heat Wave 135, 170, New 110 etc...
Sorry my bad English
RS

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

That was a fine review Roq and don't worry about the english; it's understandable.
I am surprised that they didn't make it more of a "performance" canopy. Is it possible that they are working on a more radical version for swoop competitions? I guess we shall see.
Chuck
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Quote

I am surprised that they didn't make it more of a "performance" canopy

Chuck: this is exactly inline with what they were advertizing... a tri cell xbraced for the rest of us... only I dont want to pay for all the negatives of such a canopy (high price, volume, packing, and best performance at very high wing load) if I dont get the extreme input capability to swoop hard.... If i swooped hard that is...
time will tell if it gets the market acceptance...
Remi
Muff 914