Crossfire design flaw?

[DBTECH 0]

Crossfire design flaw?
There has been rumor that the Icarus Crossfire has a design flaw in the nose design which can cause it to collapse during very aggressive front riser turns.
The accident/fatality at the Ranch last Sunday seems to confirm this. (almost nil wind/turbulence.
Dave Brownell

[apoil 0]

I know nothing about this particular incident, but
ANY canopy can have the nose fold under in an aggressive front riser turn.
Nil wind doesn't mean nil turbulence. Funny things happen up there.

[DBTECH 0]

Apoil said--
Nil wind doesn't mean nil turbulence. Funny things happen up there.
DB--I agree--more input to this same topic/thread at "Skydiving Talk Back."
Dave Brownell

[prost 0]

I can tell you that any the crossfire does not have a design flaw that will cause the canopy to colapse in hard front riser turns. I have jumped the cross fire in every standard size from 149 to 109. This at wingloadings of 1.6 to 2.2. I am 239 with camera helmet and all gear on. I have tried almost every type of high speed approach including 360 degree turns where I first went into deep brakes and the unloaded one side of the canopy so I could pull the riser down to my waist. I have combined toggle turns followed by riser turns in the reverse direction.
I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEM WITH ANY OF THESE TURNS.
There are a lot of crossfires at our dropzone. We have no problems with them.

[roq 0]

There are some few canopys that has, per times, eccentric behaviors in
turbulence. In times it was the Nova and Pintail.
To have or not to have airlocks or tricel doesn't solve the problem when
there is defect in the conception.
Anybody hear to speak about inexplicable collapses in Extremes, Stilleto,
Diablos, Spectres, Bat-Wing, Cobalt, Alpha, Viper, BT, Nitro?
The answer, I think, is not !!!
RS

[alan 1]

The purpose of this forum is to exchange information and ideas about skydiving gear and equipment. Opinions are also welcomed. If you have any facts or real information to share, please do so. It is not proper to spread rumors and innuendo here, so please take that to another forum.
There was an accident at the Ranch and it did involve a Crossfire. If it is your opinion that there is a design flaw, then please state that and share with us why you believe it to be true.
alan

[prost 0]

Roq, I keep seeing this same post in many different places. What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

[roq 0]

I just mean that, in my opinion, there is canopys that nothing never happens suspect, and there are another canopys that once in a while has suspicious behaviors.
Only to meditate. Anything else.

[prost 0]

Nothing suspect? You must not have been around to many "Splat Wings". Truth is all of these canopies have collapsed at some time or another. Just because a canopy collapses does not make it suspect unless it has a high rate of failure. They are non rigid wings. Under the right conditions any non rigid wing will collapse. DBTech has posted this rumor in three places on this web site alone. It sounds to me like he has some personal issue against Crossfires. I have never seen him or anyone else give a good argument, only site rumors from unnamed sources. For some reason he is passing this rumor to anyone who will listen. Sounds fishy to me. I have also heard him say that he is against high performance canopy landings. If this is the case why should he even know anything about the crossfire as this is its best suit. As for your statement that we do not have this discussion about other canopies, the only reason we are having it about the Crossfire is because of DBTech. I have seen no one else come forward in his defense.
The whole issue is rediculous and unfounded. This is coming from someone with a lot of experience on and around crossfires, not someone passing rumors.

[craddock 0]

," the only reason we are having it about the Crossfire is because of DBTech. I have seen no one else come forward in his defense."
Exactly- And where does the nil wind/turb come from. Did you see it DB? Apparently not.
J

[DBTECH 0]

Post deleted by alan

[DZBone 0]

Well, it's great that you are holding your own on the wreck, but you still haven't addressed the core issues here.
Where is the proof, evidence, or named sources that would allow us to make a more informed decision about this supposed design flaw?
If there is none, than this is simply iresponsible rumor forwarding, and not worth paying attention to. Period!

[sangiro 4]

I'd like to support Alan in this. David, there is nothing in your post that substantiates your claim. I have a hard time understanding the purpose of your post except to spread rumors. Please refrain from doing that here. Without facts this accident "confirms" absolutely nothing about the Crossfire. It merely confirms that skydiving is a dangerous sport....
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[ramon 0]

WTF!
A post about Fliteline has nothing to do with this (they're out of buisiness now). You have been asked to provide a logical arument/discussion or proof and you provided a sample of wreckdot ego flinging with out any reference to Icarus or crossfire.
Repeatedly you have been told by witnesses there was turbulence off of the trees.
Back up your claims to discuss or go back to wreckdot.
It is important to our sport to be aware of dangerous gear and misplaced criticism like that is wrong....what if all the gear manufacturers started backstabbing each other saying everyone elses gear was deadly? Sounds like libel.
We all sign waivers and we should be able to access good information about our gear...if you have inside info you should present it in a logical manner so that the community can benefit in the least offensive way. Chuck's description of the problem was much more beleiveable that yours.
What is scary is you sound like one of those riggers that likes to give people gear fear. Back it up!
peace
ramon

[Donna 0]

Quote

Well, it's great that you are holding your own on the wreck, but you still haven't addressed the core issues here.

I wouldn't say he was holding his own on wreck either! I'd say he was laughed off and dismissed because he had no real facts and everyone there felt the same as you all do here..... that he is just spreading unsubstantiated rumors in poor taste.
Skies,
D

[riggerrob 558]

To cut through the B.S. I called skybytch yesterday and aske dher if there was truth the rumor about a Crossfire design flaw. Skybytch was not at the Ranch, but she quoted: video, Jim Slaton and Leah from Icarus. They said that most competitors were flying right hand patterns, but she flew a left hand pattern that put her closer to the trees. Video shows a balll of turbulence striking her canopy.Their conclusion was that anyone else would heave suffered a collapse on any other model of canopy and would have been in a world of hurt after encountering the same turbulence.
The problem was TURBULENCE.
Let's kill this stupid rumor!

[DBTECH 0]

Kelli said--
Actually, I heard this this weekend from someone who had to have his Crossfire sent back for this exact same problem. The seams were sewn about a 1/2 inch out of tolerance on his, it appears that Precision who no longer makes the Icarus' due to their own new line of canopies was not doing quality control or something like that.
Kelli
DB--I believe the jury's out on this for now--"if" there is a QC or design problem, I believe it will be resolved. I did "hear" there was a nose design change on the Crossfire some time ago-(don't know when or details.
Dave Brownell

[craddock 0]

,"it appears that Precision who no longer makes the Icarus' due to their own new line of canopies was not doing quality control or something like that".
Or something like that? It appears? DB., where did you hear that precision is no longer making the crossfire. Is this just another rumor. Give it up.
As far is Lisa is concerned I can say that she was not the only one to have problems with turb. Some had been affected earlier in the day much further from the trees than she was. There is no doubt that there was nasty air where she came through. Those paticular tree tops were swirling around quite a bit. Not a steady directional wind. It had been clear all day with little winds, but it had changed for that load. I was the first one out and had to wait for several go arounds to find a hole and get the green light. I myself never really noticed anything when I landed. I was pretty stoked after my run and paid little attention to weather. I only noticed the tree tops at about the same time as she had gone through. No one else came that close to give reason to look. You can bet I will be more aware in the future. It could have been anyone of us that dared to fuck with that rotor and most of us have put ourselves in that position in the past.. Wrong place at the wrong time. Leave it at that!
J

[DBTECH 0]

Of course Precision still makes the Crossfire--just overlooked the line--wonder where this claim came from?
Dave Brownell

[prost 0]

First it was a design flaw, now a quality control problem. I think we have heard enough from you. This is not good for skydiving or this forum.

[DBTECH 0]

I never said there was a QC problem-read my post again--But if this person's claim is true, I would be "suspect" of a QC issue.
Dave Brownell

[prost 0]

Ok , I take that back. It gets confusing when you start quoting other people.

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

Just wanted to resurect this thread following the recent notice from Icarus