Smaller TI's shooting Handycam

[diablopilot 2]

$31 here. Subtract $6 for a pack job and you're at $25.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Dokeman 0]

way less than that if you figure in cameras and rig wear and tear. You actually make very little

[theonlyski 3]

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$31 here. Subtract $6 for a pack job and you're at $25.

With edit?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[5.samadhi 0]

you'd do a lot better becoming a drywall contractor at that pay!

[jimjumper 25]

I just had a student yesterday ask me if it was OK to do his own HandCam. When I hesitated, he showed me his I-Phone setup. It strapped to his wrist and with it set videoing sideways it had a pretty decent wide angle view. It also had a thin protective cover so he was able to use all the touch features without taking it out of the case. After the standard camera warning about not being responsible if it got lost, I let him use it. It came out as good or better than most HandCam stuff and he shot all the ground footage and airplane footage he wanted. He was also able to use it under canopy. I still did regular HandCam but just supplied the raw footage so he could edit it all the way he liked. Sometimes students think outside the box!

[TheCaptain 2]

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The only one's who like handcam are the ones getting paid to do it.

My wife and I use to edit video's and she has never skydived before. After watching hundreds of both my wife told me if she was going to go skydiving she would want handicam. Her reason is it give more of the exact personal experience from the students perspective.
I think both outside video and handicam can be done extremely well and can be done extremely horrible too. It depends on if the video person cares about the product they are putting out or the money they are receiving for it more. If I am shooting handicam, I take alot of things into consideration. If they have friends that are jumping too I try and possition myself so I can get good in flight video of them not just the back of their heads. I also try and pick which side of the plane to site on to give better cuts between sceens. If you end one sceen on looking out the window and start the next sceen there it seems (atleast to me) to be more seemless.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[popsjumper 2]

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I know that a lot of skydivers feel handicam is horrible....

The only one's who like handcam are the ones getting paid to do it.

DZO's who operate 182's and can keep expenses and retail prices lower because of them like them.

Students who can't afford a full video package like them.

Everyone who reaps a benefit from more DZ exposure because of the product like them.

TI's who haven't seen a raise in this industry for 20 years like them.

TI's who are tired of having to put up with shit head 300 jump wonders hammering into them just because they are the only ones who will do video for crap pay and no product standards, like them.

Stop crucifying those that have developed the skill, and have approached the activity with safety first and foremost in mind.

You notice that all your examples are all about the money and none about safety and quality product?
'Nuff said.

Stop sacrificing quality and safety for money.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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....it give more of the exact personal experience from the students perspective.
I think both outside video and handicam can be done extremely well.

True enough.
Handcam is great for those up-close-and-personal shots under canopy....something the outside guy can't do. Personally, I think freefall handcam sucks in quality....its awfully tough to hold the camera still in freefall. IMO, it's very distracting to try to watch any video that's shaking all over the place with subject jiggling around and going in and out of frame.

The best of both worlds:
Outside in freefall
Inside under canopy.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Zymurdoo 0]

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Simple: Use outside video instead.

+1 I hate handicams. Just saying.

Blue Skies, Soft Docks and Happy Landings!
CWR #23
(It's called CRW, add an e if you like, but I ain't calling it CFS. FU FAI!)

[Rover 9]

We sell shitloads & and we don't 'sell' them. We video every jump and let the punters watch them. If they want a vid they want to buy a DVD they do.
Our punters therefore don't share your opinion.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[Liemberg 0]

Let me guess - in your world the customer is always WRONG?

Well in MY world the handcam doesn't interfere with the opening of the parachute (like outside video has done in the past with disastrous results) doesn't fall of the step of the C182 when the passenger is still moving out, is right in the customers face once the drogue is thrown, is still with the tandem to catch the first reaction after opening and only gives a different perspective in the free fall part of the jump.

The customer (meanwhile) doesn't have that much aesthetic considerations about his 'prove on youtube'. 'Look at ME doing a parachutejump' is sufficient and handcam gives exactly that when done right.

But lets face it: Logistics and economics ARE a part of the equasion. Safety isn't, except when you want to compare incompetent TI's doing handcam with pro's doing outside video. Logic, however, dictates that most of us must be mediocre at best in what we do - in which case, from a safety point of view, handcam is actually BETTER than outside video...

Of course, in a wider perspective it is a pity that the 'job opportunity' which outside video provides for skydivers in the 300-1000 jumps range disappears for in the long run we'll run out of TI's - but that is a different discussion.

Now back to the OP: Yes, you probably can jump with the GOPRO on a pole, as long as it is completely handheld, without a restraint. (Seen the footage already so it has been done successfully) It goes without saying that you risk loosing a camera once in a while. Then again, it wouldn't take rocket science to build a small parachute in the contraption that deploys when the grip on the pole is lost...

If you want to do that or not is a matter of skill and economics... If not, take a handcam with the widest possible angle and/or spend half an hour daily hanging on your arms. If that doesn't sound appealing and all else fails you could try and train an Orangutan to do the job

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[RickH 0]

I am also 5'8".....I use a CX110 with a .2 lens for video and a Go-Pro mounted on top for pictures. the glove is made by Simon Wade. The Go-Pro was mounted by my own simple ingenuity.
If you are using a double go pro system of course you have no options.
Practice using different camera angles while in free fall and see which angle best reflects the shot you are trying to get.
Pay no attention to the "naysayers" out there who are afraid of
"progress". With today's technology we do have a very good product that can be placed in EVERYONE'S hand. This is called marketing. The best way to advertise your DZ is when more people can walk out with advertising in their hands.
If you would like more information about my camera set up and photos, let me know.

[psychoswooper 2]

The only one's who like handcam are the ones getting paid to do it.

[popsjumper 2]

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Let me guess - in your world the customer is always WRONG?

Nope. I don't know where you got that idea.

Your point about the safety factor of outside video is a very, very good one. It sounds like you ave had some real issues there. Do you have a choice of outside guys to fly with the tandems?

I don't understand your statement that flying tandem with a pole in your hand is a good idea. Could you elaborate?


Handcam quality sucks compared to outside.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Pay no attention to the "naysayers" out there who are afraid of
"progress". With today's technology we do have a very good product that can be placed in EVERYONE'S hand. This is called marketing. The best way to advertise your DZ is when more people can walk out with advertising in their hands.
If you would like more information about my camera set up and photos, let me know.

Well, Rick, besides making wrong, wild-ass assumption about the motivations behind your "naysayers", you are also confusing the hardware with the end product when you talk of "progress".

Yep, the hardware is improving...who woulda thought THAT would happen?


Small-profile hardware is a good thing. The picture quality of the Go-Pro, for instance, is great and it comes in a small package. All is well and good. That's not the issue here.

If you think a shaky, vibrating handcam video is better than what the outside guys have historically been giving you, then I don't know what to say.

If you can get steady-shot video from a handcam on a TI, and if you will capture more than that little microsphere surrounding the TI and the customer, then you are waaaaaay ahead of everybody else in the world.

Oh and going from steady shot to shakiness is not progress. It's retrogression for the sake of the latest and greatest in cool factors. THAT is marketing.

YMMV

On top of that. Here's another issue directly related to safety:
With the advent of the small-profile hardware, comes the idea that it's not really a safety factor. Young jumpers are getting the idea that the USPA recommendations for camera flying don't apply to those Go-Pros. I think you know as well as I do that that idea is just not true.

And to address the economics, what I've seen is that Go-Pro is making a killing selling replacement cameras that are getting knocked off in freefall AND at opening. Good for them, bad for the videographer.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Yep, customers like the canopy part of it for sure. That's what it does best. Just to repeat, outside cannot capture that.

Please don't think that your one DZ represents all of them. We've had other, and different, comments about outside vs inside.
YMMV.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I just had a student yesterday ask me if it was OK to do his own HandCam.

We had a tandem group that brought their own rented-for-the-day GoPros. We helped them mount them to their hands and let them Hero their jump. No problems encountered, except I had to reach over and turn their hand to get themselves, and more importantly ME, in the frame.

[Liemberg 0]

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Do you have a choice of outside guys to fly with the tandems?

In the ideal world maybe.

In the real world there's the documented fact of a +1800 jumps videoflyer smacking a + 2000 jumps TI in the head with the camera helmet on opening, killing them both in the process and leaving the student suspended at 4000ft with a recently deceased behind him to solve all possible issues...

Where that can leave 'the industry'? Just follow the latest news on the recent double fatality at the Ranch, with all the lawyers of New York studying the case to see if there are big bucks to be made and all the networks screaming bloody murder over the lack of regulation and oversight....

On youtube there's enough footage to be found of "cameraflyers to the rescue" complicating situations that ought to be solved by the TI. The fact that no one gets killed most of the time does not make that a good idea to begin with - and one just never knows if not the otherwise competent camera guy suddenly decides it is time for some true heroism in the spur of the moment when the s**t hits the fan.

Personally I have seen footage of a cutaway drogue + mainbag passing on one side of the camera frame while the freebag and reserve can be seen seconds later passing on the other side of the camera frame, both way to close for comfort...

Granted, that was on a dutch TI's safety day, serving as an example of 'how not to', so it isn't a daily occurrence.

A handcam however, be it in a glove or on a one-and-a-half foot pole cannot fly the tandempair out of the sky or dump a parachute in their face like a cameraflyer can and Murphy's second law clearly states that what cannot happen does not happen. ..
Lastly, of course I think a handheld pole with a GOPRO or a Contour isn't the brightest of idea's in skydiver stupidity - but I'm convinced that done right by a competent TI it's gradually less stupid than say double wingsuit tandems, sitfly tandems, head down tandems, hybrid tandems and 'look ma, I'm standing on the Ti's back holding the drogue bridle'-tandems...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[RickH 0]

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Pay no attention to the "naysayers" out there who are afraid of
"progress". With today's technology we do have a very good product that can be placed in EVERYONE'S hand. This is called marketing. The best way to advertise your DZ is when more people can walk out with advertising in their hands.
If you would like more information about my camera set up and photos, let me know.

Well, Rick, besides making wrong, wild-ass assumption about the motivations behind your "naysayers", you are also confusing the hardware with the end product when you talk of "progress".

Yep, the hardware is improving...who woulda thought THAT would happen?


Small-profile hardware is a good thing. The picture quality of the Go-Pro, for instance, is great and it comes in a small package. All is well and good. That's not the issue here.

If you think a shaky, vibrating handcam video is better than what the outside guys have historically been giving you, then I don't know what to say.

If you can get steady-shot video from a handcam on a TI, and if you will capture more than that little microsphere surrounding the TI and the customer, then you are waaaaaay ahead of everybody else in the world.

Oh and going from steady shot to shakiness is not progress. It's retrogression for the sake of the latest and greatest in cool factors. THAT is marketing.

YMMV

On top of that. Here's another issue directly related to safety:
With the advent of the small-profile hardware, comes the idea that it's not really a safety factor. Young jumpers are getting the idea that the USPA recommendations for camera flying don't apply to those Go-Pros. I think you know as well as I do that that idea is just not true.

And to address the economics, what I've seen is that Go-Pro is making a killing selling replacement cameras that are getting knocked off in freefall AND at opening. Good for them, bad for the videographer.[/reply

I agree totally regarding the use of Go Pro cameras and low time jumpers.....it is a camera and should fall under the guidelines of USPA recommendations.
We still offer both outside and inside and the "ultimate" package as well ( outside and inside edited together). We have been doing this for over 2 years now. We are getting more customers now requesting inside (handicam). Mainly because of the footage we capture when the canopy opens...to be able to capture those remarks when the canopy opens ans while flying under canopy is priceless.
I too am a videographer and I admit that the outside "picture" that you are able to take is a much better "shot"...
As a tandem instructor I no longer worry about the timing I have to have with my videographers upon exiting the plane so we don't get separation, I no longer worry about the dangers involved with another body flying around with me. I do miss seeing those " few" talented camera flyers flying with me as we perform our choreographed moves, it is a thing of beauty to watch and participate in.
As a DZO, I must listen to the "customer", and I must do all that I can to maximize the profit margin of every load I put in the air. And maximize the amount of advertising possibilities that will leave in the customer's hands.
The words of Roger Nelson will forever ring in my head when he said that our goal as a DZO is not to allow your customers to leave without something in their hands that represent your company.
If you are that DZ that offers just outside video and you are able to put a video in their hands 90% of the time, then keep doing what your doing. If you are looking for another "option" for your customer base...
TRY IT.

[diablopilot 2]

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Let me guess - in your world the customer is always WRONG?

Nope. I don't know where you got that idea.

Your point about the safety factor of outside video is a very, very good one. It sounds like you ave had some real issues there. Do you have a choice of outside guys to fly with the tandems?

I don't understand your statement that flying tandem with a pole in your hand is a good idea. Could you elaborate?


Handcam quality sucks compared to outside.

You don't list a tandem rating in your profile. Is that correct?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[airsport 0]

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Let me guess - in your world the customer is always WRONG?

Nope. I don't know where you got that idea.

Your point about the safety factor of outside video is a very, very good one. It sounds like you ave had some real issues there. Do you have a choice of outside guys to fly with the tandems?

I don't understand your statement that flying tandem with a pole in your hand is a good idea. Could you elaborate?


Handcam quality sucks compared to outside.

You don't list a tandem rating in your profile. Is that correct?

popsjumper... seems like a bit of a troll to me. Safety/quality arguments for the sake of making noise. Neither are valid! Customer wants a memoir of their jump and HC is the most economical and safest! The moment you put someone else on the jump you increase the likelihood of things going wrong exponentially. How could you argue otherwise?

[popsjumper 2]

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You don't list a tandem rating in your profile. Is that correct?

That's correct.
Are you going to say, "you have no opinion because you have no rating".
Let me be the first to say, "Bullshit."


In case you haven't read the thread....

Here's my two points:
1. Inside handcam end product quality sucks compared to outside video.

2. Tandem Handcam presents its own safety issues.

What's the problem?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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popsjumper... seems like a bit of a troll to me. Safety/quality arguments for the sake of making noise.

And you would be wrong.
If you want to talk relative safety, let's talk.
If you want to say that handcam is totally safe, you are only fooling yourself.

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The moment you put someone else on the jump you increase the likelihood of things going wrong exponentially. How could you argue otherwise?

Did anyone argue otherwise? Read it all again. It's already been spelled out for you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Liemberg 0]

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With the advent of the small-profile hardware, comes the idea that it's not really a safety factor. Young jumpers are getting the idea that the USPA recommendations for camera flying don't apply to those Go-Pros.

I fail to see the logic of competent, experienced skydiving professionals being responsible for the misconceptions of beginners.

For instance, I guess with your 99 years of experience and 10000+ jumps you can pack more than twice as fast as someone who for the third time tries to wrestle all this slippery ZP fabric in that way-to-small bag. Following your logic you should slow down your packing to prevent the other guy from making mistakes that would invariably happen if he tried to pack as fast as you can.

Somehow. I just don't think you are doing that.

Other than that, with the modern light weight stuff there is indeed still the risk of getting carried away in wanting to get the shot (at the expense of surviving the skydive) but a whole lot of other issues that were part of 'bulky camera on the helmet and VHS-C recorder in the belly bag' are extinct nowadays...

I don't think one has to sit up on opening with only a GOPRO or a Contour attached to the helmet, to prevent a neck injury.

Then again, for a bridle it probably doesn't matter if it is caught on a GOPRO-mount or on a Newton ring sight...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Ron 7]

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The only one's who like handcam are the ones getting paid to do it

Handcam has issues, but they can be controlled. I personally don't have any issue jumping a HC. I think the video is pretty good or I would not do it. The opening and under canopy stuff is GREAT.

And yes, the pay dos not hurt. But we run so many specials that most jumps I get paid like 10 bucks to do it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334