TI's : Have you had a mal on a tandem yet?

[MotherGoose 0]

Hey guys, I really need to talk with some other TI's regarding tandem mals. I'm putting myself out there on this flame-infested site , but I don't care, I need some answers and the perspectives of other more experienced tandem instructors.

I'd like to know if you've had a tandem mal before, what system were you jumping, what kind of mal was it and how many tandem mals you have had over your career?

Here's the fun part, I have had 3 tandem mals in my first 75 tandems. I have a Sigma rating, jumping moslty 370's but on occasion I use 395's. Each time I had a mal it was a tension knot at the brake cascade that would not clear no matter what I tried so I had to cutaway a spinning main. Each time it was on a 370 with Dacron lines. Each time the canopy was FLAT packed.

I need to talk about this because I have NOT had a mal on my regular gear. (intentional cutaway for the TI course) I truly believe that I did what I could under the circumstances to clear the mal but could not get it fixed. Sure on the first one, I spent very little time fighting a spinner with someone attached to me. But I know for sure that on the second one, I stayed way more calm and had a good look at the mess of lines at the cascade. I pulled the riser, I pulled the toggle, yanking away at it with all my might. I had almost TOO much confidence on the second one as I was in the saddle under the reserve sub 3000 ft. By the third one, I was also playing around with it, trying to free it up and I was in a much steeper spin on my back this time with a much heavier student. The third one was witnessed by many from the ground and they said it looked brutal.

Anhow, I'm sitting here second guessing myself. Is it possible that its just bad luck or am I doing something wrong? Should I be able to clear a tension knot? Is there a technique? Are Sigma elliptical mains meant to be flat-packed? Do you think the packing style is contributing to the tension knots or is it perhaps my body position or something I am doing wrong at deployment? What are your thoughts? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

(P.S. I put the word YET in the title on purpose)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[TheCaptain 2]

Just read the Sigma Manual for packing are you setting the brakes?
I jump Sigma's with PT 365 (which opens in full flight) with standard PRO pack and we take the extra length in the brake lines at the canopy and S fold it and rubber band it together. Even when I jumped Strongs with set 400 we would set brakes and still S fold the extra brake line length at the canopy.

I have roughly 1800 tandems and only 1 cutaway around 400 tandems into my carreer. The mal was tention knotts I tried to clear them and it would not.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[BrianM 1]

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I'd like to know if you've had a tandem mal before, what system were you jumping, what kind of mal was it and how many tandem mals you have had over your career?

I got my Vector & Sigma rating last year. My DZ uses Vectors. I've done about 75 tandems so far. No mals, no problems at all.

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I have a Sigma rating

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(intentional cutaway for the TI course)

A cutaway is not a prerequisite for a Sigma rating.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have had 7 mals over 2100 tandem jumps. Mostly on SET 400s (Strong) for a variety of reasons. I have had one line-over on an EZ 384. I have had one mal similar to the one you mention on a Set 400. This is probably from slack in the steering lines, possibly being introduced during the cigar roll stage. This is true whether flat or pro packed. Sigmas are intended to only be pro-packed according to UPT.
3 in 75 jumps? Fire the packer.

[MotherGoose 0]

What if the DZO is absolutely convinced that at some point, somewhere, Bill Booth went on record as saying that Sigma mains should be flat-packed?

I like the idea of stowing the excess brake line at the cascade with an elastic. Another DZ I jump at does that with Precision mains.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[Squeak 17]

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What if the DZO is absolutely convinced that at some point, somewhere, Bill Booth went on record as saying that Sigma mains should be flat-packed?

.

I'm not a TI but our DZ only Runs Sigma rigs about 10 of them all PRO Packed and i have not seen a Tandem cutaway there in years.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[rhys 0]

I have had 1 malfunction in over 3000 tandems.

it was on a ez384. my wife packed it.

I jump Icarus tandem full time/all the time now, people around me chop off linetwits frequently, i have canopies that want to wind up bloody packers), but I don't let them. if they do wind up, I know how to get out of lines twists easily on Icarus.

I can't speak for sigma canopies, i don't like them personally.

In fact I'm gong to be selling two of them (340's) in a week or two if anybody is interested they have only 20 jumps on each of them. I'm swapping them out for Icarus 330's.

Learn to fly your openings, symmetry is the key, if you have 3 chops in 75 jumps from tention knots, fine your packers with beer and if they pack another within 500 more charge them double demerits. make sure your brake lines are untwisted. you have plenty of time under canopy for this.

Dual brake lines just ask for tention knots, that's one of the reasons why I hate them.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[MotherGoose 0]

I'm drawing a parallel to the flat packing as well, it just doesn't make sense to flat pack an elliptical main of that size. Plus a canopy with lines that long is better packed standing up to maintain tension as long as possible. I see lost tension on flat packing all the time.

Rhys, I understand the untwisting of the brake lines, they get very twisted because most TI's don't stow in the field and if packers aren't diligent with untwisting them then it can be a major cause of tension knots. With the slower opening mains, like Sigma, there is more time for lines to knot up while they dance around above the slider at linestretch, before opening up. I'm not concerned about line twists, I've caused a line twist opening or two because of shitty body position on opening and I don't worry about them, even the really bad ones. The canopy seems to stay on heading and behave so why worry, just wait for it to unwind. I did almost chop one recently due to a locked toggle. I thought for sure I was screwed after trying countless times to pull it out. Eventually, as a last ditch effort, with no energy left, I reached up and pulled at the snap and out she came, nice and easy. I am not a fan of the snaps on Sigma. I prefer the new tabs they have.

EDIT : I made an error (explained in a post below)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[amstalder 0]

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I did almost chop one recently due to a locked toggle. I thought for sure I was screwed after trying countless times to pull it out. Eventually, as a last ditch effort, with no energy left, I reached up and pulled at the snap and out she came, nice and easy. I am not a fan of the snaps on Sigma. I prefer the new tabs they have.

Maybe you could talk to your packers about not snapping them in... I know when I first started packing, I didnt get the memo that our TIs preferred them to be left unsnapped, since they have a tendency to stick.

Also, I propack all of the tandems our DZ has, including sigmas, yet to have a tension knot problem. Good luck!

[MotherGoose 0]

Our head rigger has mandated the use of all equipment that is available. Basically, if it's there, UPT meant for it to be there so the snaps are in use always. That being said, the equipment is slowly being switched over to the new tuck tab riser/toggle setup.

The DZO has agreed to start "looking into" alternative packing methods (in light of the recent spate of mals I would imagine), and he is interested in the drop hook PRO pack. Any word on which is better, shoulder or hook ? I have never personally used a hook.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[AggieDave 6]

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Each time I had a mal it was a tension knot at the brake cascade that would not clear no matter what I tried so I had to cutaway a spinning main. Each time it was on a 370 with Dacron lines.

Untwist the brake lines.

Even with a brand new lineset, that hasn't gotten "grabby" yet, a twisted control line will flatten the cascade and make it grab the C/D cascade, resulting in a tension knot.

Three of the four tandem chops I've had were due to that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[amstalder 0]

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Our head rigger has mandated the use of all equipment that is available. Basically, if it's there, UPT meant for it to be there so the snaps are in use always. That being said, the equipment is slowly being switched over to the new tuck tab riser/toggle setup.

The DZO has agreed to start "looking into" alternative packing methods (in light of the recent spate of mals I would imagine), and he is interested in the drop hook PRO pack. Any word on which is better, shoulder or hook ? I have never personally used a hook.

That makes sense on the snaps...

I pack over my shoulder, have never used a hook. When I first started, people did recommend setting up a hook since Im relatively short (5'2"), just never got around to trying it.

[MotherGoose 0]

Dave, I wish I could supervise the packing mat all day and still make my jumps. The packers have been told, the rest is up to them. I have to trust that its being done.

Ashli, its good to hear that the shorties are shoulder packing, something that MANY people think is not doable.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[rhys 0]

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I'm drawing a parallel to the flat packing as well, it just doesn't make sense to pro-pack an elliptical main of that size. Plus a canopy with lines that long is better packed standing up to maintain tension as long as possible. I see lost tension on flat packing all the time.

you realise that paragraph contrdicts itself?

i dont beleive in an eliptical (or at least a very elliptical) canopy for tandems.

Sigma mains are over made, they over steer and are less predictale than a square such as an icarus tandem.

Flat packing IMHO is stupid as you are packing an off heading opening.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[MotherGoose 0]

I don't mean to get into an argument or anything but if you flat pack properly, you start off with the canopy in a sideways orientation, but end up with a stack where the nose is at the bottom and the tail is at the top. At that point you just make sure your lines are all clear and centered. My problem is that if a canopy doesn't have cell tabs, it probably wasn't meant to be flat-packed. Also, with elliptical laying on its side, the cells are not at equal heights which makes it trickier to flake them all out and ensure line tension.

EDIT : I can't believe I just read my post and realized what I wrote. It should say FLAT PACKING ellipticals doesn't make sense. Sorry.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[rhys 0]

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EDIT : I can't believe I just read my post and realized what I wrote. It should say FLAT PACKING ellipticals doesn't make sense. Sorry.

I concur!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Sorry M. Goose. My earlier post should have said Sigmas are intended to only be flat packed according to UPT. My bad.
Bill Both told me that personally.

[ericskraby 0]

I have 14 Tandems. I got my rating last weekend with Jay Stokes. On my passenger ride, first jump of the course, we had to chop due to a tension knot jumping Vector 2 Sigma main i believe.

It was a nice start to the course having my first cutaway of my career haha. (I didn't pull the handles so I claim I still have my perfect record)

[ufk22 32]

After my one-and-only (out of 4 total) chop from tension knot. I did a lot of research. According to PD, tension knot are almost always caused by twisted brake lines.
Their recommendations; make sure to run the brake lines back from the canopy the last pack job of the day, make sure to stow the toggles after each landing.
I stow almost immediately after landing and still end up with a few twists by the end of the day.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[koppel 3]

3 TM mals all up

Only tension knot I have had in 2000+ tandems was on a single brake line canopy.

One from line-twist, Fought it all the way to my hard deck. Canopy was known for twisting up on opening and was retired shortly after

and one very random hard opening that broke every line on the front right group either at the riser end or at the canopy. Even tore off a couple of attachment tapes

Hey Rhys, whats your thinking behind dual brakes causing tension knots. Just because you are adding more lines or because people don't take out the twists?

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[rhys 0]

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Hey Rhys, whats your thinking behind dual brakes causing tension knots. Just because you are adding more lines or because people don't take out the twists?

A combination of both!

I like singe control lines for various reasons and that is only one of them!

More control lines = more potential problems.

Anyone with any experience on icarus mains with single toggles and a decent amounbt of experience will agree.

It is bizzare but icarus tandems with single control lines are qute different indeed to the same canopy with dual control lines. it must have something to do with the shape of the tail during input I suppose?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tkhayes 154]

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/SIGMA-MANUAL-COMPLETE.pdf

the manual has pretty clear packing instructions and if you vary from that and have some sort of an accident - you actually might be found liable for not following their published instructions.

Are the steering lines twisted up? They do get that way easily on their own. Every jump, look up and untwist the steering lines by spinning the toggle(s) around on your finger, it only takes a few seconds to keep them unwound

[MotherGoose 0]

TK, see Andrew's post above? This is exactly what the DZO up here is saying. Bill Booth has personally told certain people that Sigma mains should be flat packed. The contradiction is of course that the manual shows (Pablo?) pro-packing the main with step by step details to that effect. There is NO mention of flat-packing. If you email the rigger at UPT regarding this issue, the response is abrupt and straightforward : "Please follow the manual".

I don't mean to knock flat-packing. I have well over 1000 paid flatpacks (over half of which were Sigma mains). If done properly, there should not be an issue. I'm just trying to correlate root cause to my mals. It seems that brake line twisting is the major culprit.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[AggieDave 6]

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TK, see Andrew's post above? This is exactly what the DZO up here is saying. Bill Booth has personally told certain people that Sigma mains should be flat packed. The contradiction is of course that the manual shows (Pablo?) pro-packing the main with step by step details to that effect. There is NO mention of flat-packing. If you email the rigger at UPT regarding this issue, the response is abrupt and straightforward : "Please follow the manual".

When the lawyers hit the fan (does that make sense), it doesn't matter if Budda skipped over a rainbow with Jesus onto the DZ and said to psycho pack your reserve; if its not written in the manual or in writing from the manufacture, then you have deviated from standard practice.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[peek 20]

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... if you flat pack properly, you start off with the canopy in a sideways orientation, but end up with a stack where the nose is at the bottom and the tail is at the top.

That is correct. A parachute flaked like a "pro" pack is somewhat more symmetrical, but not by much. I think you might consider the quality of the pack jobs, not the method. If the problem is always tension knots then Dave's suggestion about watching for twisted steering lines sounds like a good idea.