Back flip exit on tandem

[billvon 2,435]

>o.k. oh messiah of good instructional techniques, can you honestly
>tell us that all of your Tandem students have been taught to use the
>emergency handles?

Nope, only the more experienced ones.

>since you are so used to this instructonal method, heve you ever
>experienced a situation where the student deployes immediately out
>the door due to being overwhealmed?

I have not - but I know several other TM's who have. In general, opening too high is preferable to not opening at all.

>Actually, even if i had the desire to do so, i would never be able to
>make a reasonable income, as NO busy full yer dropzone does this.

I guess that depends on your definition of "reasonable." I know quite a few professional skydivers who do nothing else.

[diablopilot 2]

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Most people that jump here are not interested in learning to skydive, why push them to do so?

I don't think you'll ever get the point that the reason they don't want to learn is because you and people like you portray Tandem Skydiving as some sort of ride, something the inventors of Tandem Skydiving NEVER intended.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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I doubt any tandem instructror would 'instruct' a passenger thougroughly enough to safely land the parachute in the cast of them being unconcious upon inflation. it is definately possible, but quite unlikely.

Now I know you're wrong.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[adamT 0]

Proper instruction for flying and landing a parachute takes hours. That's not to speak of proper instruction for emergency procedures. There isn't a dz on this planet that spends more then 20 mins "teaching" first time tandem students, ill give ya 30min to be generous. In that time frame the best i think you will do with the vast majority of tandem customers is confuse them and make them more tense, increasing their likely hood of killing their instructor or making their life more difficult.

All the videos and group ground briefings come down to pure cya.

It is important to make the first timer feel include in the jump, that is your job. Along with keeping them as relaxed as possible so they can enjoy that new world as much as possible.

The full FJC barley scratches the surface on how to survive solo in the skydiving environment. That's not what the first time tandem student signed on for, at most places they have that option as well, if they wish.

[billvon 2,435]

>There isn't a dz on this planet that spends more then 20 mins "teaching"
> first time tandem students, ill give ya 30min to be generous.

Whatever Skydive Carolina did, it was sufficient to teach the student to land safely after their TM died. Seems like an excellent goal.

[Liemberg 0]

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Whatever Skydive Carolina did, it was sufficient to teach the student to land safely after their TM died. Seems like an excellent goal.

Doubtful...

The outcome of such an event might have nothing to do with the training a person did or did not get, prior to the jump.

Although there are many places where person under a 'rudderless' parachute probably would hurt himself during the landing, the bulk of all the possible landing sites (i.e. where the parachute might end up as a result of a random process) are flat and unobstructed. Since parachutes don't have a lot of forward speed it is thoroughly possible that someone with no experience or training at all and no radio-guidance in the process walks away unharmed. Every operation encounters solo students that freeze under canopy and we all have been retrieving 'lost sheep' sometimes more than a mile from the designated landing site, with the half-brakes still in place.

Not all of them needed medical care after such a landing. Normally only the students ego is damaged...

Furthermore, any TI that has ever landed an unconscious passenger can tell you that a completely relaxed body helps as much in not breaking anything as lifting up your feet @ touchdown does. Should a student find himself with the toggles in his hands and no one there to guide him, it isn't rocket science that the parachutes turns left when you pull left and right when you pull right. Now all one has to do is aim for a large patch of green...

What we DO know however is that a relaxed tandem passenger who is confident - if not in their own abilities then certainly in those of their TI - is way more manageable during all the stages of the jump than one who is convinced all sorts of horrible things can happen when the TI becomes unconscious - which apparently happens at this DZ here every other jump, as he is likely to conclude after a 45 minutes steering lecture...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[feuergnom 22]

...this discussion has deteriorated to the old "I'm right and you are wrong" between TI's sticking to "it's only a carnival ride" vs "I try to instruct"

edit to add:
each group has valid points. bottom line: one could agree to disagree

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[billvon 2,435]

> Since parachutes don't have a lot of forward speed it is thoroughly possible that
> someone with no experience or training at all and no radio-guidance in the
> process walks away unharmed.

It is indeed. However, per his own words, he turned to avoid two sets of obstacles before landing safely. He may have gotten only a little training, but it was sufficient to land him safely.

>What we DO know however is that a relaxed tandem passenger who is confident
>- if not in their own abilities then certainly in those of their TI - is way more
>manageable during all the stages of the jump . . .

I find a student who knows what to expect is more manageable. YMMV.

>than one who is convinced all sorts of horrible things can happen when the TI
>becomes unconscious - which apparently happens at this DZ here every other
>jump, as he is likely to conclude after a 45 minutes steering lecture...

?? Who said anything about a 45 minute steering lecture?

Yes, you can hypothesize all sorts of bad things happening. What did in fact happen was that a TM died in the harness and the student had enough training/presence of mind to land himself safely. That's a better argument than any hypothetical IMO.

[Liemberg 0]

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He may have gotten only a little training, but it was sufficient to land him safely.

He may have had no training whatsoever and have figured it out by himself, being a person with a head on his shoulder and in the habit of using it. (AFAK said TI gave the student the toggles, then passed out - but correct me if I'm wrong...)
Hey, he may have red 'The Parachute and its Pilot' cover to cover and would have been able to pass a written test with flying colours for all I know - but the question is if a formal classroom training in steering the parachute where just the fundamentals are touched is a viable option. However, everyone I took up so far had toggles in their hands from opening until 20 seconds prior to landing - you are only excused from that when you have passed out or are busy taking pictures

And yes, in a briefing I always say "these handles will be put by me in front of your face, they are the only ones you are going to touch during this jump. Steering the parachute is easy, Pull left and it goes left and faster down than it did, pull right (dont forget to stick your left arm back up) and the thing goes right and faster down than it did."

Sooner or later however, we are going to end up with a TI that passed out before giving the student the toggles. In all likelihood the backup systems will save the students life then, not formal classroom training in steering parachutes.

(Come to think of it, any of you examiners-riding-front ever reached for toggles still in their keepers from a tandem main or reserve, with the lower laterals still tightly attached? Care to share your experiences?)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[billvon 2,435]

> but the question is if a formal classroom training in steering the parachute
> where just the fundamentals are touched is a viable option.

Or a less formal training that takes place around the creeper and/or mockup used for training. Nothing magic about formality _or_ a classroom.

[Liemberg 0]

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Or a less formal training that takes place around the creeper and/or mockup used for training. Nothing magic about formality _or_ a classroom.

"This is how you are going to steer and land the parachute in case I'm incapacitated. First try and reach for the toggles that are in their keepers way up there on the rear risers. It might be necessary to pull down a riser with both hands and release those toggles one at a time. Once you have released one control toggle please DO carry on with the next one - don't be alarmed that the parachute starts to turn, building up speed while you strugle with the other toggle - this is all perfectly normal..."

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[rhys 0]

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"This is how you are going to steer and land the parachute in case I'm incapacitated. First try and reach for the toggles that are in their keepers way up there on the rear risers. It might be necessary to pull down a riser with both hands and release those toggles one at a time. Once you have released one control toggle please DO carry on with the next one - don't be alarmed that the parachute starts to turn, building up speed while you strugle with the other toggle - this is all perfectly normal..."

haha,

lets hope the customer is not a fat ass that sinks all the way into thier harness.



then they will have fun reaching the toggles.

Does anyone have a link to any information on the incident where the customer landed the parachute for the incapacitated t/m?

A conversation at work informed me he 'may' have had military parachuting experience, but I cannot assume that information is correct.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mjosparky 3]

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Does anyone have a link to any information on the incident where the customer landed the parachute for the incapacitated t/m?

Post 97 of this thread gives the link.

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A conversation at work informed me he 'may' have had military parachuting experience, but I cannot assume that information is correct.

Post 96 of this tread mentioned that the passenger had some military experience. But it was not experience in jumping.

You should try reading the other posts, they have a wealth of information.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,435]

>Once you have released one control toggle please DO carry on with the
>next one - don't be alarmed that the parachute starts to turn, building up
>speed while you strugle with the other toggle - this is all perfectly
>normal..."

You're right. that's not ideal. But that's better, IMO, than telling him (effectively) "so if anything goes wrong, just wait for someone else to save you. If I'm out of it, just prepare for impact."

There are a few basic things that are going to help a tandem student survive his jump:

-don't walk into the propellers; approach from the rear
-this is how your harness will be hooked up. Verify you have four points of attachment before we exit.
-here's my rig, you'll be attached to it, it has a main, reserve, AAD etc
-here's what will happen in the airplane
-here's how to exit
-here's how to arch
-here's what you'll feel on exit so don't dearch even though you want to
-the drouge is blah blah blah and you must arch until it's out
-(insert procedure for handles check/getting arms out etc here depending on DZ)
-we're going to open the main at 5000 feet; here's the signal, here's what the release looks like, the drouge will pull it out once it's released
-here's the altimeter, here's how it works
-if we have to use the reserve I'm going to cut away with this thing and open the reserve with this thing, if we have to do that I'll ask you to arch and blah blah
-under canopy you can help me steer, pull left to go left, right to go right, both to slow down
-we're going to land over there into the wind, I'm going to have you do X Y and Z right before landing, you will help/not help with landing

I think most people do better when they know what to do and what will happen. And, very rarely, that just might save their lives.

[diablopilot 2]

We're in agreement on this Bill....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[adamT 0]

I agree with most of that, and it can easily be gone over in 5mins on the ground and then again in review on the ride up. As it should be.

I strongly disagree with showing first time students where the emergency handles are and a giving out a few lines about how they are used. Not a big jump in logic to have a student decide that free fall has been going on too long and that there is a problem and they need to pull that handle behind them on the left because they remember something about it being used in an emergency. Hopefully you aren't releasing the drogue at that point.

That's just one scenario. There are many paths that could end in tears if a student gets a hold of those at a bad time. Its your job to protect those handles, do yourself a favor, don't draw attention to them. Even training the drogue release increases risk if there is outside video in the mix.

Even students who are properly trained sometimes pull handles early, in the tandem world and the aff world.

Its all a balance of info of course. But i do believe that in some places a little bit of info adds more risk then it eliminates.

[billvon 2,435]

> Not a big jump in logic to have a student decide that free fall has been
> going on too long and that there is a problem and they need to pull that
> handle behind them on the left because they remember something
> about it being used in an emergency.

I agree that could be a problem in theory - but has that _ever_ happened? It's rare even with AFF students, and their handles are right there in front of them, not behind their shoulderblade.

[feuergnom 22]

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theory - but has that _ever_ happened?

yes it has, years down the road, if i remember correctly on a vector tandem. killed both - and that is where all the panic concerning passengers and handles originates from - imo of course

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[matthewcline 0]

Do you have that report? I looked at the Incident reports in the manual for UPT and on the web page and all I could find was that every single one was Instructor error.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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theory - but has that _ever_ happened?

yes it has, years down the road, if i remember correctly on a vector tandem. killed both - and that is where all the panic concerning passengers and handles originates from - imo of course

I also know of one anecdote where the pax grabbed the cutaway handle but the TM prevented them from pulling.

[feuergnom 22]

I said if I remember correctly - when i made my tandem cert I got this analysis of all known tandem fatalities. by now i can't find this list, but I mailed the guy who collected the data. as soon as i get it i'll get back here

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Liemberg 0]

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-don't walk into the propellers; approach from the rear

Turning prop? Harness grip!

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-this is how your harness will be hooked up. Verify you have four points of attachment before we exit.

Agreed (I guess everybody does that)

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-here's my rig, you'll be attached to it, it has a main, reserve, AAD etc

You'll be attached to both reserve and main parachute by means of this piece of metal. Once attached, I can release the lowers (that keep you in front of me during free fall) However, I cannot release this connection between you and the parachute until after we have landed. Wherever you are going, I'm going there too!

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-here's what you'll feel on exit so don't dearch even though you want to

So much for neuro linguistic programming...

"Keep your feet on my bum until I hand you the toggles" (i.e. there is no mention of behaviour that should be avoided but rather training of behaviour that should be executed...)

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-the drouge is blah blah blah and you must arch until it's out

1. You must arch until I give you the toggles.
2. Is the drogue out already? How do I know? Was that a tap on my shoulder? Or just a touch? OMG, this goes fast - I think I'm going to PANIC! Lets try and grab something, anything...

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-if we have to use the reserve I'm going to cut away with this thing and open the reserve with this thing, if we have to do that I'll ask you to arch and blah blah

"If we end up under a reserve you'll be the last to notice that anyway, so don't worry..."

"If you don't do anything I said since your mind melted away fresh out of the door, you will spoil the video, get nauseated and may hurt yourself on landing. Me, I'm planning to save my life once more, whatever YOU decide to do and I wouldn't take anyone up if they can influence the outcome - just count yourself lucky that we share parachutes"
Again, any tandem examiners out there that have tried to grab the cutaway handle 'from the front seat'? If I remember correctly in Kapowsin several years ago they found out that a passenger can get a hold of it when neither expected or desirable. When I look where the person up front is positioned AFTER OPENING I find it completely feasible that it can be grabbed and pulled by the person up front - sufficient reason for ME to not discuss it. YMMV.

Anyway, I think we should agree to disagree. Teaching everyone 'to save his/her own life' in a situation where that is hardly possible and most unlikely might give you an overall REDUCTION of safety on all those jumps where TI's save the day. Which is not to say that I don't answer questions from the curious. Just don't see the point of opening the can of worms myself, beforehand.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[JohnMitchell 14]

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theory - but has that _ever_ happened?

yes it has, years down the road, if i remember correctly on a vector tandem. killed both - and that is where all the panic concerning passengers and handles originates from - imo of course

It was in Washington State. The passenger reached back and grabbed the cutaway handle at about 2K. Since the side straps were unhooked, the TM and passenger fell open. One of the reserve lines went under the passenger's leg. The reserve spiraled until impact, killing the TM and injuring the passenger. I watched all this from the ground about 200 yards from impact. This incident is why there are hookknives on the passenger harnesses now.

[feuergnom 22]

yep, august 8, 1998, kapowsin

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[fincher 0]

just goes to show that if it can happen it will happen at some point. There is a possible negative and positive to every argument on procedure for conducting tandems. Every instructor will have their own views on thing and for that particular instructor it his particular viewpoint might work well for him. With all experienced instructors, behavior and jump safety is based off previous experiences and what they have "seen" happen. If some factor of the jump creates an "issue" then you are going to take steps to "fix" it in the future. Unfortunately by avoiding some scenarios you open yourself to others. It is unavoidable and is part of the territory with all skydiving. It can never be perfectly safe. Stringent regulation will only tie the hands of instructors to operate within thier comfort level whether its percieved comfort or not. A confident, comfortable instructor WILL BE SAFER than one that feels like he has been forced to do what he sees as "stupid" or "sensless" things. Thats the instructor that develops a bad attitude about what he is doin. It leads to resentment and frustration. Then you have a grumpy no fun instructor. Lets see how many people want to start skydiving after going with a grumpy instructor. We all know that most people whether they admit it or not, enjoy and start skydiving for the social side of it as much as anything else. Its the people in this sport that bring in new jumpers. If someone wants to start skydiving they are coming back. There is plenty of time for instruction later. Personally I think tandems are a introduction to the sport. They should be mostly fun with a little info thrown in. Show them a good time..do it safely...they will come back if its what they want.
In the end there is only so much regulation that will actually help safety. whats safe is relative to what is happening on the jump and the personality/behavior of the student. Those things can only be judged by the instructor on the jump. At this point no rule can cover everything. Taking an instructors right to pratice his/her judgement away or adjust for the students mental state is just as dangerous as allowing people to make mistakes. And just as detrimental to introducing jumpers to the sport.
Luckily with the great gear in this sport there is actually alot of room for mistakes, which quite frankly are the only way lessons are really ever learned. The important part is recognizing your mistake as a mistake.
In the end I dont think there is a definitive right or wrong way. Just too many variables of situations. THere is always another "what if".

and this pic is the most stable cessna tandem exit.

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down