Back flip exit on tandem

[riggerrob 558]

" ... I focus on giving the 'customers' a great time and making them more 'relaxed'.

I have found that too much unnecessary information (overlearning) can make them less comfortable and not have as much fun.

If they decide to take up skydiving they will have all the opportunity to learn the required actions in the classroom in thier AFF or static line training, The first tandem jump should be purely fun!

They do not pay that money to have some self proclaimed guru, spew out so much information that they simply 'turn off' to what is being said.

... a 'good time' jumping from an airplane."

.....................................................................

Agreed!
Even if tandem only shows them "the big picture" it is still a valuable teaching aid/stage.

USPA doctrine (BIC) says that the most students can absorb three new ideas per class. Average students might grasp five new ideas and the brightest will grasp seven new ideas.
That is why I limit my tandem ground school to 3.5 new body positions.
I have always believed that static-line instruction was right on the edge of information overload.
Most AFF students are over-loaded by the time they get to the door.

The other issue is arousal levels. Most students are so over-arroused during their first jump (by any method) that learn very little, so starting with a tandem helps get them over that over-arrousal on their first jump.
The second jump they are half as arroused and learn much more.

That is why my DZ does not refuse to teach IAD first jump students, just makes it prohibitively expensive.
That steers all first-timers towards tandem.
If they want to try an IAD jump - the following weekend - we offer they a $100 discount.

Classroom instruction of IAD students goes far more quickly and gracefully if they have already seen "the big picture" during a tandem.

The other reason for starting all students with a tandem is liability. With a tandem instructor strapped to their back, they have a 99 percent chance of a safe landing.
Back in the "good old days" of large S/L first jump courses, we always had one stupid-student who steered towards town or towards the river. Even one stupid-student per year is enough to give a DZO grey hair!

[douwanto 22]

duh huh welll uhhhhhhhhh..... I don't know there mister big shot....... seems to me as I remember from one of them there training tandems even though the student gives the count, the dive flow starts when the student gets a thumbs up from the TI once the drogue has been set this does not have any concern for the exit type or climb out.............since there is no way for the student to simulate a real exit attached to the front of a TI......... of course that is just my experience ....

Man there are so many people with condescending responses to the reply s here and I noticed that those who are so condescending never give their experience.....

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[douwanto 22]

This is really the goal isnt it giving the student\passenger a SAFE enjoyable experience that may bring them back in the future. First and most importantly safety and if anyone here thinks climbing out holding onto the strut and doing a poised exit is safe and has less safety concerns than say leaving the laterals unhooked for landing??????????? I would love to hear your arguments for a poised exit being more safe than an exit from the door. Also why is a poised exit more productive than exit from the door???

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[rhys 0]

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As for Ohio read the thread in GS about a sad day for tandems.

That was clarified to me Via PM (thanks), I knew of the incident, but din't know of it as the 'Ohio incident', more 'the complacent idiot that let their customer fall out of a harness and stupid american litigtion is making the manufacturer responsable', incident.

But thanks for the heads up!

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In the US FAR Part 105 has a very unique line about INSTRUCTING the student on use of the deployment handles, again not applicable in the land downunder.

I'm glad I didn't work at a USPA dropzone when I was there then, I do let customers pull the main deployment handle (on occasion) but also have seen a student do so immediately out the door at 14k.

This could be potentially very dangerous, and each student needs to be assessed before such a privilidge is given to them, That is not to say that students that I would not want to pull the handles, would not be able to jump with me!

For some that is just too much for them to handle/enjoy and 'Making them' do so can be 'taking the fun out' of the skydive.

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BUT

Your DZ, I think, makes my point. Your DZ was founded as a carnival ride. There is no provisions for advancing throught the student program. Of course being a tourist atraction would mean people are going to flock to it, like the amphatheator is a point of interest for large groups of tourists.

Most of the customers here are not tourists but local residents, there is a city of 4 million people nearby ( an hour and 1/4 drive away) and 750,000 live in the immediate area.

As I mentioned before, most jumpers are doing so for;

Their birthday
Their anneversary
Their christmas present
Their Bucks party...

Only a small proportion actually (seriously) say they want to begin skydiving and we steer them in the right direction, many of the TM's are also AFF instructrs and can offer services to them but not at our main DZ as the landing area is not appropriate for students (but has spectacular views), people drive past 2 other dropzones to jump at ours because of the views.

Advertising the tandem course as a training program 'ONLY' may actually deter some potential skydivers, some in the beginning have no desire to learn to jump for themselves at all, until, they have been on a 'Carnival ride' skydive and realised how fun it is.

Think about it, how many tandeme students are apprehensive before they jump and elated after?

MOST OF THEM

Use you brain, the carnival ride theory has just as much if not more potential of obtaining new skydivers than the 'instructional' technique you seem to prefer.

Students just want to jump and get it out of the way, afyer which the training should begin, since they have the desire, they will be more inclined to listen to the instructor.

teaching a student all about a skydive when they are never going to come back again is;

A WASTE OF TIME!

Instructing each student this way maybe the US way and how the rules are written, but it sure does not make sense to me.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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That is why my DZ does not refuse to teach IAD first jump students, just makes it prohibitively expensive.
That steers all first-timers towards tandem.
If they want to try an IAD jump - the following weekend - we offer they a $100 discount.

Classroom instruction of IAD students goes far more quickly and gracefully if they have already seen "the big picture" during a tandem.

your DZ is 'Onto it'.

good work to your DZO/manager.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[diablopilot 2]

Hey genius, the F(ederal) A(viation) R(egualations)'s apply to non USPA DZ's too. Failure to remember that is why a certain DZ's aircraft have been grounded for the last month.

They also apply to USPA members. And anyone in this country in fact. They are law.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rhys 0]

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Hey genius, the F(ederal) A(viation) R(egualations)'s apply to non USPA DZ's too. Failure to remember that is why a certain DZ's aircraft have been grounded for the last month.

Hey stiffo! Thanks for the clarifiaction. It is still a backwards approach to an aviation industry that is worth many millions of dollars per year.

We have come a long way since the 'experimental' days, it is about time the rules were ammended accordingly.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

The rules where ammended when it went from Experimental to Instructional in FAR part 105.45 (like previously noted US only).

Now, the line says "Owner/Operator", of course in talking with all three current rig builders they all agree that the purpose of the systems is to "instruct" and they sell the systems as such. UPT even has a user agreement to help understand the rules you are to follow in use of the SIGMA and Vector II Tandem (I have not read SE or JS end user agreements). When Bill and Ted went to the FAA and asked for the exemption "Instruction" was a major selling point.

Yes, those who are only checking off the things on the bucket list are the majority of Tandem Students, but they are still Students so why not TRY and teach them?

Any way lets get back to the jumping part of our sport and leave the debating for the old rocking chair bound ones aye?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mjosparky 3]

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My 'breifing' is a one minute discussion in the aircraft, immediately prior to exit, The students are all briefed generically on the ground by our GCO's before the instcutors even meet them.

If a customer asks to pull the ripcord they can, I will train them,

How can you passably train them to do anything in one minute in the confusing, noisy environment of a jump plane?

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I'm glad I didn't work at a USPA dropzone when I was there then, I do let customers pull the main deployment handle (on occasion) but also have seen a student do so immediately out the door at 14k.

If you had taken the time to properly train the student on how and when to pull the main handle do you think they would do a better job?

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teaching a student all about a skydive when they are never going to come back again is;

A WASTE OF TIME!

Why do you refer to them as “students” when there is no teaching going on?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rhys 0]

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Now, the line says "Owner/Operator", of course in talking with all three current rig builders they all agree that the purpose of the systems is to "instruct" and they sell the systems as such. UPT even has a user agreement to help understand the rules you are to follow in use of the SIGMA and Vector II Tandem (I have not read SE or JS end user agreements). When Bill and Ted went to the FAA and asked for the exemption "Instruction" was a major selling point.

While this may be true, they both still supply to customers/companies that quite obviously do not fullfill these requirements. They 'willingly' supply to these companies because they are the ones turning around 20,000+ tandem customers a year and puchase tandem conatainers in the amounts of hundreds of thousands of dollars. These companies usually do not purchase the recommended reserve parachutes anr main parachutes either.

I dont see Bill and Ted and anyone else telling these companies to 'instruct' thier students, or use thier specific canopies...

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Yes, those who are only checking off the things on the bucket list are the majority of Tandem Students, but they are still Students so why not TRY and teach them?

because they have the option to do a static line IAD or AFF course if they please, most would rather;

Pay less,
Spend less time fucking around,
Have the instructor do everything for them,
Or not be responsable for themselves and just have fun.

What is the point of teachng someone that is not interested?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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How can you passably train them to do anything in one minute in the confusing, noisy environment of a jump plane?

quite easily;

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When we get to the door, just slip your feet out and sit on your butt and place you hands across your chest or hold you harness whatever feels more comfortabe. Once we are in position place your head on my right shoulder and I will launch us from the aircraft, as we leave simply tuck you legs back behind you and push you hips forward a little bit. Try not to put all of your energy into it as this will defeat the purpose of making the position in the first place. Once I tap you on your shoulders we will be going about 200kmph and the wind should put your body in the correct position, you will fnd it is quite a natural position to fall in, if anything just push your hips forward into the wind and go with it, gravity does most of the work.

We are only falling so just go with it, once we leave the plane don't fight it, just go with it!

Don't forget to breath and if you find yourself short of breath, close your mouth and breath through you nose, if you still have trouble, just scream and you will find you are breating in no time.

The most important things I want you to do is smile and have fun!

smiling stops you cheeks from flapping aound in the video (usually is responded with a laugh)

Any questions?

I find this technique has worked best for me, I try to concentrate on making it sound as simple as possible.

You didn't seem to acknowledge the fact that our GCO's spent about 5 minutes with them before we leave to the airport training them also. I just point out that body position is not a stiff action.

If they ask me to do a flip I will say yes, if they are stiff I will simply do a posed exit and they will usally not even question me on it, if they are relaxed and smiling I will do a gainer!

The best visual especially a nice slow one!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mjosparky 3]

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You didn't seem to acknowledge the fact that our GCO's spent about 5 minutes with them before we leave to the airport training them also. I just point out that body position is not a stiff action.

I didn’t refer to it because I was asking you how you train in that environment in one minute. You posted:

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If a customer asks to pull the ripcord they can, I will train them,

I think for the benefit of truth in advertizing you should drop the terms “instructor” and “student”. You are not teaching and they are not learning.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rhys 0]

call it what you will, T/M is what we usually refer to our positions as.

Most people that jump here are not interested in learning to skydive, why push them to do so?

Do you also push the video on them, once they have told you they don't want it?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mjosparky 3]

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call it what you will, T/M is what we usually refer to our positions as.

Most people that jump here are not interested in learning to skydive, why push them to do so?

Do you also push the video on them, once they have told you they don't want it?

I no longer jump so it is a moot point with me. I am just trying to understand how someone can be a professional skydiver and not skydive.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rhys 0]

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I no longer jump so it is a moot point with me. I am just trying to understand how someone can be a professional skydiver and not skydive.

Sparky

what are you saying, that doesn't make sense!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>Most people that jump here are not interested in learning to
>skydive, why push them to do so?

Because it makes the skydive a bit safer, and they can make slightly more informed decisions. Later, if they decide they don't want to continue, no one has lost anything.

>Do you also push the video on them, once they have told you they
>don't want it?

In many cases, yes. The TM takes handycam video, and the student can then decide later whether they want it.

[rhys 0]

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Because it makes the skydive a bit safer, and they can make slightly more informed decisions. Later, if they decide they don't want to continue, no one has lost anything.

That is subjective, upon knowing the potential dangers they may be in upon exiting an aircraft, the custeomer may be stiffer and less relaxed in freefall.

The customer is not in control of the tandem system in the case of the 'carnival ride', so what is the point in teaching them these things.

should we alose teach tehm about baglocks and horseshoe malfunctions before thwy go on a tandem, will that make thm safer?

It is better they just relax and enjoy themeselves, that makes a much safer tandem skydive, if they like the feeling of freefall and parachuting, then thay can learn for themelves.

Tandem is an introduction and a teaching aid.



if they want to skip that process, thay can smply apply for a aff, S/L or IAD course.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[gearless_chris 1]

Wasn't there an incident recently where the TI was unconscious (heart attack) under canopy and the student landed himself due in part to his pre-jump briefing?

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[rhys 0]

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Wasn't there an incident recently where the TI was unconscious (heart attack) under canopy and the student landed himself due in part to his pre-jump briefing?

I doubt any tandem instructror would 'instruct' a passenger thougroughly enough to safely land the parachute in the cast of them being unconcious upon inflation. it is definately possible, but quite unlikely.

It would also depend on the abilities of the said passenger.

I would be intrigued to know the details of this incident you are relating to.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,400]

>That is subjective

Not really. If you train a student to pull at a certain altitude, that's going to save your life (if you screw up) in a lot more situations than it's not going to save your life.

>should we alose teach tehm about baglocks and horseshoe
>malfunctions before thwy go on a tandem, will that make thm safer?

Nope. But teaching them about the reserve system, and what's going to happen if/when there's a mal, will.

>The customer is not in control of the tandem system in the case of
>the 'carnival ride', so what is the point in teaching them these things.

No point at all. If it is a teaching dive then there IS a point to it - and it makes the skydive safer for both the TM and the student.

If, of course, your only goal is money/thrills/building jump numbers, then it may not be worth it to you.

[gearless_chris 1]

From what I remember it was a student with some military experience. The TI quit talking under canopy, the student flew them to an open field and gave the TI CPR, TI didn't make it.
There's got to be a compromise between a one minute briefing in the plane and teaching a first jump course. I like Skydive Chicago's tandem operation. They have one person that teaches a class for several groups of students that covers basic stuff and gets the simple questions out of the way, then the TI gets them for a few minutes to go over everything right before boarding. Is that what your GCO's do?

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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Wasn't there an incident recently where the TI was unconscious (heart attack) under canopy and the student landed himself due in part to his pre-jump briefing?

I doubt any tandem instructror would 'instruct' a passenger thougroughly enough to safely land the parachute in the cast of them being unconcious upon inflation. it is definately possible, but quite unlikely.

It would also depend on the abilities of the said passenger.

I would be intrigued to know the details of this incident you are relating to.

Here you go.

Incidents Forum

Gearless chris had most of the details right. TI had heart attack after opening, student was able to land safely.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rhys 0]

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Nope. But teaching them about the reserve system, and what's going to happen if/when there's a mal, will.

o.k. oh messiah of good instructional techniques, can you honestly tell us that all of your Tandem students have been taught to use the emergency handles?

and do you think doing so is imperative to the safety of the tandem pair?

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No point at all. If it is a teaching dive then there IS a point to it - and it makes the skydive safer for both the TM and the student.

since you are so used to this instructonal method, heve you ever experienced a situation where the student deployes immediately out the door due to being overwhealmed?

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If, of course, your only goal is money/thrills/building jump numbers, then it may not be worth it to you.

Actually, even if i had the desire to do so, i would never be able to make a reasonable income, as NO busy full yer dropzone does this.

Skydive chaicago wouold be the closest i know of but still does not offer the same level of income as my current position, is in the USA and closes for winter.

I 'am' a career man, that is why I started skydiving.

I know also that what you expect out of skydiving is not the same as me, or anyone.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billeisele 122]

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Wasn't there an incident recently where the TI was unconscious (heart attack) under canopy and the student landed himself due in part to his pre-jump briefing?

I doubt any tandem instructror would 'instruct' a passenger thougroughly enough to safely land the parachute in the cast of them being unconcious upon inflation. it is definately possible, but quite unlikely.

It would also depend on the abilities of the said passenger.

I would be intrigued to know the details of this incident you are relating to.

At this DZ, the student receives video and verbal instruction on the jump. This includes flying and landing the parachute.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[flydog 0]

Lets not forget the TI in perris 20 years ago with an out of sequence deployment. He pilled every handle except the drogue releases. The reserve pilot chute tangled with the main lines. Down ddep the student saw they were below 5500 feet and pulled his drogue release. This gave them a three second canopy ride.