Anyone had this experience with a tunnel?

[magicman 0]

OK- skydiver of 20 years here. Long before I started jumping, I used to go to the old Flyaway in Pigeon Forge. Then, when I first became an actual skydiver, I went back to Flyaway (my only option at the time) and was amazed that I could actually fly under control (as I'm sure was the case with many of us). So, over the years, I would go to Flyaway and the attitude of the instructors was always "So you're a skydiver- what can we help you work on?" and that seemed to make total sense to me.

So, being that I live in Cincinnati, I don't have any of the modern ifly style tunnels nearby. I've been itching to get inside one and see the difference that I keep hearing about. A couple of weeks ago, we took a trip to Orlando and of course, the tunnel was a major must-do on my list. So... I get there, go through the obligatory class (same as Flyaway always required if it had been a certain amount of time since your last flight) and when I mention I'm a skydiver, I'm abruptly told that there is NO WAY I am allowed to try to sitfly! Again, I've been jumping for 20 years and I have the jump numbers to back that up, and the vast majority of my jumps have been freefly. Could I not have demonstrated that I know what I'm doing with a low-speed sitfly, and then gone from there? The instructor made it clear that I had to complete the entire hierarchy of skills before I'd be allowed to attempt a sitfly.

This is vastly different from how Flyaway worked (and still does). At Flyaway, of course, the wind speed isn't sufficient to actually sitfly (they do more of a "chair" position) but no issues if you want to try. Also, Flyaway involves more actual falling when you slip away from the airstream, and most injuries I've seen are when that happens- not an issue at ifly. So, I understand "safety first", but what is the problem with allowing me to at least demonstrate that I can sitfly?

On my way out of ifly I spoke with an instructor and told him of my dissatisfaction with having to spend my entire flight demonstating belly flight and other skills, and he asked how I learned to sitfly. When I told him I learned in the sky by being dragged out of a plane, he told me that I learned the wrong way! WHAT?

This seems like a big money making racket to me. Back when Flyaway was your only option, it was all about fun. Now there's the whole bodyflight ranking blah blah blah and it seems like it's become largely political. Am I missing something?

[stayhigh 2]

ifly is a big corporation. They have rules.

Progression by step by step is a must. For instructor's safety and for your money.

How are you gonna sit fly if you can't back fly?

Show them that you can back fly and they will let you sit fly.

Example: If you cork out and go to your back and if it takes you LONG time to get back to the net to stand up, aren't you wasting your money? By the time you get down to the net your 2 min is up.

As a tunnel instructor, I've seen many people who claim they have 1000's of freefly jumps and I know that they can fly in the sky but they suck inside the tunnel.

I say, show me your backflying skill. If you want to fly headdown show me that you can fly on your back and sit fly well enough so that I don't have to risk breaking my back to spot you.

If you break yourself inside the tunnel, it is a bad publicity for ifly and it is my job on the line.

If you can demonstrate control on your back, turn both direction, go up and down, foward and backward, you are welcome to try sit fly all day long.

with your 1000s of skydive you'll pick up quick. hopefully you don't have bad habits.

backflying is essentially sit flying. if you can't backfly you aren't ready, simple as that, and if you can't belly fly, you are not ready to backfly. If you aren't old enough and if your parents aren't there, you are not ready to fly.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[craigbey 0]

Quote

people who claim they have 1000's of freefly jumps and I know that they can fly in the sky but they suck inside the tunnel

That pretty much sums it up for me. But back flying is a fun challenge and provides a new tool in the air.

Getting into the new tunnel at Naperville has been a blast and I'm looking forward to more time soon.

magicman: Those pretty glass walls in the iFLY tunnels aren't padded.

[asphaltpussy 0]

As a fellow sv instructor i 100% concur with Stayhigh.
Sky and tunnel are 2 different things. Especially if you wanna get hurt very fast. Remember that the great Olav broke both his arms on his first session in a tunnel eventhough he had X-1000s of jumps. There is way less room for error and mishaps happen fast. And we don't wanna get hurt while spotting you.
And yes, once you're mastering sitfly in the tunnel, you'll realize that you finally fall straight.

R&D Firebird USA
Skyventure Arizona Instructor
Eloy, AZ

[stayhigh 2]

Biggest factor is that these kids who are Tunnel Instructors gets paid almost at a minimum wage, and that is not enough to put up with other people's shit, and not enough pay to work any harder(taking spots).

My rule was that, You don't even have to be pro at backflying, just show me some level of backflying skill so that I can crank up the tunnel and not have to worry about spotting your fat ass, or you hitting the turning vane on top.

I have let one of my friend who was so stubborn about not doing any backflying, (since he has been flying on his head from the 90's, and I let him do so, since we jumped together all the time), straight into sit flying. The guy sucked. It was nightmare, every time when he corked, he managed not to float up by buttflying, but he burned rest of his time trying to get back to his feet. Yeah, he bought 10 min, flew for 3 min and spent rest of the time trying to get back to his feet. Then we turn down the wind, he gets up, we turn back up the wind, he corks at some point, and repeat the process.

I used to get these belly jumper with 4000-5000 jumps they come to the tunnel with their new girl friend trying to impress them by doing flips and shit, and what happens? The girl friend isn't impressed at all, and then I go do my demo. Ya, she is way more impressed at my flying vs your 5000 skydiving skill.

Like the poster ^.. Even Olav broke his arm, I think it was both of his arm. He had over 10000 jumps, inventor of the term "Freefly". Inventor of dolphin licenses.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[asphaltpussy 0]

i emphasized on both.

R&D Firebird USA
Skyventure Arizona Instructor
Eloy, AZ

[wan2doit 6]

I began flying in Orlando a little over a year ago and can't agree that they rip folks off. The experience is to die for to me. Being a whuffo and only having 2 hrs in the tunnel I never felt any coach was stalling my progress to get in my wallet.

What may have happened is that you might have had a lesser experienced instructor that was not yet qualified to even spot sitfly or possibly, if u were very aggressive in saying you were gonna do this and that he may have felt u were challenging his authority and reacted to that.

Instructors are mainly spotters until they become very experienced in flying all skills themselves and becoming rate3d as a coach and understanding how to spot all out of control situations and know where your body is heading in the tunnel well before the flyer does just by seeing one subtle but wrong move by the person who's safety they are Responsible for during every second of a flight session until you are safely out of the tunnel.

Just curious - how many minutes did u fly at iFLY Orlando and did u get to demonstrate the skills someone else mentioned here that r required prior to sitfly so the instructor could see u knew your stuff?

I have always had a good time there and never felt cheated - maybe give it another try with a different strategy on how to work with the instructor or maybe email or discuss the situation with the head coach there.

Good Luck

[jonstark 8]

What is the typical progression for a skilled belly flyer to explore freeflying in the tunnel?

Jon

[adamUK 3]

This has been mentioned before but the backfly position is the default freeflying bail out position. Some of my freeflying friends got it nailed in less than 20 mins and then went on to sit/HD etc.

Non-ifly tunnels are a bit more relaxed - Bedford in the UK for instance are way more chilled about this. So are the hurricane factory tunnels in Prague and Slovakia.

But yeah.. it's frustrating to be told you can't do what you want in there.

[stayhigh 2]

The "only progression" by ifly. It is that way or highway.

http://tunnelflight.com/skills/

Skilled belly flyer will just have to be signed off on belly skill and you'll get to back flying within 2-3 min.

Back flying is the hardest to learn. Once you get back flying down everything is down hill from there, besides one or two road block. Everyone is different. I've seen one getting back flying figured out enough to get signed off within 40-60 min. That's quick learner, kid was like 12 or 14.

Sucks, but you have to learn back flying. Or otherwise you won't be able to fly for longtime(20-30 min continuous flying), transition will seem scary. Backflying is the resting body position in high speed.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[jonstark 8]

Thanks for the link. Very helpful.

Jon

[PhreeZone 15]

You've been jumping for 20 years but how many jumps do you have and how many times did you bump the glass on your belly?

Flyaway does not have the airspeed to sitfly at. With Flyaway if you get out of control you end up getting out of the cone of air and fall to the pads on the ground. Fly does not have the same design and if they have the winds cranked up to 130+ for you to sitfly and you get unstable what are your options? You end up slamming into the wall at full speed or you end up on your back spinning out of control or you might get onto your belly but then you are stuck up at the fans and then the operator needs to slowly let you down to a level where the instructor feels you are safe again. The first options are major safety concerns - the last one is just wasting your money since it will take 10-15 seconds to get you down to a lower level. another 5-10 seconds to reset to a sit and spin the speed back up and then hope you can actually transition from standing to flying again. So you just spent 20-25 seconds to get to a point where you can fly again? Not the best use of money and time - learn the back fly and you can just rotate 90 degrees to a sit again and it took you 2-3 seconds max.

I only have about 10-15 hours in the tunnels and 2000+ jumps so far but despite being able to take sit docks and any transition in the sky I am glad that I learned to back fly and transition from a back to sit over the course of about 2 hours in the tunnel since now when ever I get unstable I have a recovery position and can just bail to my back and then just transition right to my sit again. It took me slamming into the wall a few dozen times and backsliding my self into the wall to many times to count to learn it but had I not had the training of backfly and everything else I would have broken bones and given up years ago. The glass is not forgiving at all of peoples egos that think they have skills that they do not - I learned that one a few times so far.

The progression sounds stupid until you actually learn it and its just like anything else - you need fundamentals before you do more advanced moves since if you have an issue with the more advanced item you can just fall back to the skills used at a lower level to work your way back up. Having issues on your back - flip to your belly. Having issues with your sit fall to your fall fall backfly position. Having issue on the head down - rotate to your feet.

Its all building blocks that Flyaway does not need since they just can't do the same types of flight.

There are iFly tunnels in Chicago that are well worth the drive - I make the drive from Columbus for my block time since iFly is a true freefall simulator and not just an amusement ride like FlyAway is.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stayhigh 2]

Times surely have changed.

This guy^ says, "I ONLY have 10-15 hours of tunnel"

10 years ago, we would've said, "What? You have 10-15 hours of tunnel, that's insane!!!"

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[base698 3]

There are tunnels that deviate from this progression. I've also seen solid sit/head down fliers with super weak back fly skills. I learned the old fashion way, and I'm not sure it's the best way anymore based on fliers I've seen come out of other progressions.

As well as solid head down fliers with weak sitfly skills.

[stayhigh 2]

atleast they don't try to kill themselves on their back right?

did they totally skip backflying and progressed right into sit? i don't think so. like i said, show me somewhat of decent back flying skill, decent enough so that I don't have to spot your ass, and you'll sit fly.

just about everyone has solid head down skill and weak sit fly skills.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[corpkid 0]

I couldn't imagine NOT having back flying down pat before sit flying (which I'm learning right now in the Orlando tunnel). Took me about 2 hours to get really solid on my back. I'm at the point where I sit fly for about 15 seconds and then cork... but I can get right back up (at top speed) in about 3 seconds and try again. It's exhausting but that tunnel time is VERY expensive so to everyone elses point - why would you WANT to sitfly at those prices only to be starting up at the fans for 75% of your flight time??

And the instructors have always PUSHED me (I have about 15 hours in that tunnel) to try harder things. For example, after I got my back flying down - the pushed me to learn full, controlled barrel rolls, and then once I was good at those, they pushed me to do belly to back & vice versa transitions... They even had me do a few front flips (poorly) but point being - your experience seems unique or maybe it's just because I know all the instructors and they know my skill level.

[piisfish 137]

stayhigh

just about everyone has solid head down skill and weak sit fly skills.

I feel so different now.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[adamUK 3]

base698

As well as solid head down fliers with weak sitfly skills.

It seems everyone wants to progress straight onto HD as soon as they get sitfly sorted.. then dynamic. Closing a mixed round is hard... Flipping down a solid sitline is also difficult but also a ton of fun

[danielcroft 2]

The IBA progression is an effort to mitigate the risks of law suits and injuries to customers IMO. I think it's also a good way to make people learn a wider set of skills.

At non-iFly and non-corporate iFly tunnels, the franchisee or owners are allowed to mitigate the risks how they choose to. For example, if you go to a non-corporate iFly tunnel, you may just be asked to demonstrate that you can be stable on your back whereas, iFly will require you to show that you can actually back fly.

This can be very frustrating to skydivers because we don't generally back fly in the sky, nor is it easy to actually back fly properly in the sky. Being stable on your back in the tunnel is very important just as it is in the sky. If you bail uncontrolled form a freefly jump, you shouldn't be on that jump.

I can't fault iFly for requiring a progression that they feel keeps people safe and mitigates risks to all parties. Please recognize that there is a lot of risks flying at free fly speeds in a wind tunnel.

[wicodefly 0]

What would you say are the biggest real risks?

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[wan2doit 6]

Here's an example of risk - Inka Titto as a Student

[/url]https://vimeo.com/39331315[url]


I think ricochet is an appropriate description here. ;)

[piisfish 137]

wicodefly

What would you say are the biggest real risks?

from bruise to death, with cuts and broken bones in between.

Yes you can die in a Wind tunnel. You can break your fucking neck. You can break your back. You can break your wrists (ask Olav)

If you don't want to follow the tunnel rules because you are so good, well go to another tunnel, or better yet, build your own.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[danielcroft 2]

wicodefly

What would you say are the biggest real risks?

I've seen several injuries that required a tunnel be shut down and I'm not an instructor.

As mentioned before, broken bones, concussion, dislocations, etc. If you don't count the fans falling through the tunnel, I think the chances of death are pretty low but certainly not 0.

piisfish

If you don't want to follow the tunnel rules because you are so good, well go to another tunnel, or better yet, build your own.

Dude, relax, some people actually don't understand. At least they're here asking.

[piisfish 137]

apparently some people don't seem to understand

edit to add : there has been at least 1 fatality. In Aerokart, Paris. A flyer fell head down and broke his neck. Died in hospital. He was not freeflying, belly flying and flailed on one side of the tunnel.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[corpkid 0]

piisfish

***What would you say are the biggest real risks?

from bruise to death, with cuts and broken bones in between.

Yes you can die in a Wind tunnel. You can break your fucking neck. You can break your back. You can break your wrists (ask Olav)

If you don't want to follow the tunnel rules because you are so good, well go to another tunnel, or better yet, build your own.

Cracked two ribs in the tunnel when somebody I was doing a 2-way RW flew into my burble when I was on the net staring up at him wonder WTF he was doing. Couldn't get up and out fast enough and he dove almost head down onto me at full speed. That took about 4 months to get over and hurt like hell. Yes - you can get VERY hurt in the tunnel. It's a sport. I've seen people break wrists, fingers, bloody noses, etc.