riggerrob 558 #26 February 22, 2011 Then your PFF Instructor's Course must have been slightly different from mine, because I was taught to grab a leg strap and the student's shoulder. Ideally students wear bumper suits, but I can usually grab a fistfull of jumpsuit. Bumpers on legs are good for re-docking near pull-time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 February 22, 2011 That horse-shoe looks like it was caused by a sloppy pilot-chute toss. A sloppy pilot-chute toss is grounds for a re-jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #28 February 23, 2011 Well, we explained the "subtle" difference between throwing forward vs the correct throw we taught him. He was stable for most of the skydive, and pulled for himself; so we passed him. We will dirt dive that throw a lot IF he comes back. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #29 February 23, 2011 QuoteThat horse-shoe looks like it was caused by a sloppy pilot-chute toss. A sloppy pilot-chute toss is grounds for a re-jump. How can you see that in that picture????? It was anything but sloppy. It was a hard throw, but he did release the pc late so it went forward. I have no problem taking him on the next level. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #30 February 23, 2011 Quote Good job with the student, Steve. How did he take it? He was a little clueless to what exactly went wrong, but he knew something did. We explained it to him and when heard the other skydivers screaming while watching the video he may have gotten even more spooked. Time will tell if he comes back. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #31 February 23, 2011 no no no, KY is too water soluble. Must use vaseline or it will wash off in the clouds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #32 February 23, 2011 QuoteQuote Good job with the student, Steve. How did he take it? He was a little clueless to what exactly went wrong, but he knew something did. We explained it to him and when heard the other skydivers screaming while watching the video he may have gotten even more spooked. Might have been better to debrief in private?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #33 February 23, 2011 QuoteWe explained it to him and when heard the other skydivers screaming while watching the video he may have gotten even more spooked. Time will tell if he comes back. Not very professional of you to review this in public with your student and expose them to the out loud comments from experienced skydivers. Had you reviewed this and provided the positive feed back and instruction with an additional comment as to how other skydivers will react when viewing the jump video, your student would 1.Be educated on the subject & 2. he would know what to expect and how to react to others reactions. 3. you most likely wouldn't be wondering if he is coming back or not. Sometimes instructors are a dz's own worst enemy by doing such things. debrief is to be conducted in private first :the walk and talk. ie. as in walk away from everyone else.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #34 February 23, 2011 Quote while watching the video... So there was outside video on this jump? What was the purpose of the go-pro handcam then? I'm confused. I've got a personal experience story I was thinking of posting, that would (and does) - at least for me - make me seriously reconsider (which I have now, and I think I still stand by my original comment that I would as an aff instructor, and at least for AFF jumps - deep-six the hand-cam) taking a hand-cam on AFF jumps, as an AFF instructor is probably not best practice. Either side, or - either hand. But I doubt, based upon what I've seen of your replies (both to me and others) so far, that you really care to hear it. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #35 February 23, 2011 I'm also all for a calm debrief without outside interruption. But, sheesh. At some DZ's people plug their cameras into a big tv out in the hangar, by the packing mats, whatever. That's what's available. Still, I guess some students new to the sport haven't yet learned the fact that they are there as a source of entertainment to be laughed at.... aren't they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #36 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Good job with the student, Steve. How did he take it? He was a little clueless to what exactly went wrong, but he knew something did. We explained it to him and when heard the other skydivers screaming while watching the video he may have gotten even more spooked. Might have been better to debrief in private? Did we say we debriefed in public? We debriefed in private. HE wanted his DVD played in the lounge. Hard to control what a dozen skydivers will do after the beer light has gone on. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #37 February 24, 2011 Quote Quote We explained it to him and when heard the other skydivers screaming while watching the video he may have gotten even more spooked. Time will tell if he comes back. Not very professional of you to review this in public with your student and expose them to the out loud comments from experienced skydivers. Had you reviewed this and provided the positive feed back and instruction with an additional comment as to how other skydivers will react when viewing the jump video, your student would 1.Be educated on the subject & 2. he would know what to expect and how to react to others reactions. 3. you most likely wouldn't be wondering if he is coming back or not. Sometimes instructors are a dz's own worst enemy by doing such things. debrief is to be conducted in private first :the walk and talk. ie. as in walk away from everyone else. We did debrief in private. After he knew what was on the video he wanted the DVD shown in the lounge. Of course you only assumed different. Jumped to conclusion w/o all the facts ... go figure. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #38 February 24, 2011 What bothers me most about this is not the assumptions and opinions, lord knows there are plenty of people ready and willing to give it, but I was hoping to have more of a dialogue from others who had experienced such issues on an AFF jump and what they did. No such luck, just a lot of "snag nazis" (love that new term0, and others so willing to throw a fellow AFFI under the bus w/o a shred of personal knowledge about what actually took place. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #39 February 24, 2011 Quote w/o a shred of personal knowledge about what actually took place. care to share the go-pro video of the public debrief ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #40 February 24, 2011 I have a 100 or so affi jumps so my experience is limited. I know this is the instructors forum and you would expect better here. DZ.com is vultures row. People just waiting to pound on the negative. With that said. I try to listen to the message that is coming out. It's clear on this one that the message Is that people think it's not a good idea to have handcam on affi jumps. Good luck and stay safe. Would love to see video so I can learn from it and again thank for sharing.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #41 February 24, 2011 ...and some guys even push a wrist mount up onto their forearm. Quote I'm one of those guys, makes it easy to see and out of the way. Just can't stand having something on my hands...but that me. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #42 February 24, 2011 Here's the thing Steve... The picture you posted, although an interesting shot angle/perspective in of itself notwithstanding, is something that if you are an AFF instructor with anything more than even just a couple-hundred of AFF-I jumps, we all have probably already seen, in one (similar) way or another. As I've mentioned, I don't (relatively - and relative to a lot of the other AFF-I's on here, and out there) have that much more AFF-I experience than you, and I can tell you I've seen this almost exactly. As well as bridal wraps around a student wrist (temp/cleared), students who will hold their hackey with a death-grip out at full arms extension, etc. The one thing I hadn't seen (or heard of) before, was the (an) AFF-I using a GoPro hand-cam, on his AFFI jumps. So yes, naturally, that is what I have centered/focused on. Is it possible for you to perhaps upload somewhere, the outside video of this jump, and post a link to it for us to see / try to learn from? Would you be willing/able to do that? I truly would like to be able to OPEN-MINDEDLY view/consider all angles and aspects (both literally and figuratively ) on this subject matter. I would hope as an instructor - you would be willing to do the same. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #43 February 24, 2011 Quote I was hoping to have more of a dialogue from others who had experienced such issues on an AFF jump and what they did. Fair enough - and I am happy to also participate in this as well. As mentioned - I have seen I think, in-air, at least once, almost the exact same thing. A bridal that went under the arm of the self-deploying student, and caused a temporary horseshoe (bridal temp snagging at the students armpit as a result and standing the student nearly upright) during his (was a her actually, in my case) deployment sequence. I was reserve-side for that jump (same as you) - and the only thing I could do at the time (it cleared itself, thankfully - very quickly) was all that I could, and as I was trained - which was to keep my grips to assist with the "ride-out" and do all that I can/could to hold the students (relative) stability. ...IOW, keep them from also turning/tumbling/spinning and possibly thereby potentially worsen their situation if I wasn't there by (potentially, I suppose) wrapping themselves in the bridal, or flipping through deploying lines. I recall the - OH-SHIT moment it inflicted as well, and luckily for me (and apparently for you too) the situation rather quickly, cleared itself. Had the bridal wrapped and not cleared - what would I have done? Would have depended upon the altitude and situation I had on-hand. In other words, you need to be prepared for nearly anything with/in an AFF jump, and expect... the unexpected! That is also why, I don't (personally) think, having a hand-cam on my hand - for nearly any situation I can possibly envision, can in any of them, in any way - possibly ever be of any help. But, it could possibly be a detriment. I am willing to at least consider changes to either my procedures, and/or my equipment used in AFF jumps, as an AFF-I based upon shared wisdom, or collective experience garnered best-practice feedback received. - Are you? So far, it seems as though you are not, and your only intent here remaining now, is unwaiveringly defending your use of the handcam, and that no matter what... you intend to be intractable in that. Just for another example - I am right now also seriously reconsidering my personal (so far) choice to wear / use a fullface helmet on my AFF-I jumps. This is due to another unusual (remember, expect the UN-expected!) situation I personally witnessed - A student REFUSING to release their hackey! ...I don't mean just hesitation or temporary either. I mean the death-grip kind, where junk is now starting to lift out of the main pack-tray and they/we are humming below (their) hard-deck and repeated hand-sweeps, then even hits (beatings ) to their deployment hand by the main-side instructor was not even successful. The mainside instructor in this case (again THANKFULLY) had an open-face helmet, and I watched - again with - while holding the main-bag in place on the students back (felt like the right thing to do in the situation at the very moment) - as the mainside instructor drove in on the student and bit (yes BIT!) the students hand (hard too!)!!! - The student immediately then released, and as the pilot chute then launched, I also simultaneously released the d-bag, and the student actually had a nice, clean "routine" (from there on in) deployment. Had it been me there, over on that main-side, with my full-face on, I would not have had that capability/option available to me to do that. Hopefully, this now - is also contributing, and is the added discussion from your initial post you were looking for, and is also of some further value, to you.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #44 February 24, 2011 Not my fault your writing style sucks ass and you leave out key info, your posts implies other wise and if you don't want hear others points of view then make clear what really happened and not post shit that would lead people to believe your review of the video was done in such a manner and then start cryin about people not having all the facts. And FYI, I think wearing a go pro or any hand cam on your hand for aff is pretty fucking stupid, but to each their own, have a good day.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #45 February 24, 2011 Thanks for the input steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #46 February 24, 2011 What is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #47 February 24, 2011 QuoteWhat is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? I am not a TI. Nor have I ever been even on a tandem jump, ...on either side of the equation (student/passenger or Instructor) personally. So, I don't know if I have the capacity to state a qualified (relevant) comparative opinion. I have however, seen handcam footage done by TI's who use them, and I have seen a few of their set-up's (on the plane, around various DZ's etc.), and I've heard some of the arguments and debate about them, back-n-forth. I don't know if any of that however, is materially germane (or qualifies my "opinion" as they may apply to tandems) here though. My (unqualified) opinion on them for tandems, where you have asked me - and just so as to simply not avoid the question, is that I am not anti-handi-cam for tandems, or abjectly against them for that application (Tandems) - at least as I have observed it. ...But am I qualified to (effectively) further debate or quantify that? Or - specifically delve into the further appropriate application (or not) considerations that would go into ...all the pro's & con's as it would relate at least to Tandem usage and the application (usage) of them in the tandem environment? Or then, even further compare & contrast therefore, any of the nuances or differences as they might apply towards comparing the 2 applications (handi-cam usage in a tandem environment versus an AFF environment)? - No. Because I am not a TM/TI. I'm afraid therefore, I probably cannot add any value to discussing comparison of using a handi-cam set-up in a Tandem Environment, or am able to myself, either find or apply relevance between the 2 - if that is the direction you would now like to go. Maybe others with dual ratings can do that with/for you. I am not Tandem rated, nor directly, personally experienced.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #48 February 24, 2011 QuoteWhat is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? Sorry - Short (direct) answer: I am not against them, for Tandem Instructors to have them available to them, to use them, for tandem jumps, in a tandem environment. Why do you ask?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #49 February 25, 2011 QuoteI am not against them, for Tandem Instructors to have them available to them, to use them, for tandem jumps, in a tandem environment The primary differences between tandem and AFF with regards to handcam is that the tandem is a single entity, and any entanglements are confined to within that single entity. In an AFF jump, the instructor and student are two seperate entities, and an entanglement between the two of them is a much different story. In terms of the rig, in a tandem environment, the TI is the primary operator of the rig, and very little happens without his say so. It's true the student can pull the drouge release, if provided one, but that only produces an unwanted or unplanned event if the drouge is already out, in which case the result is generally a clean deployment. In an AFF jump, the student has a much greater command of their rig, and much greater range of troubles they can create (as the basis of this thread, the horseshoe, is evidence). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #50 February 25, 2011 So you are saying there is no possible situation where a handcam would be a hinderance to a TI who had a malfunction? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Scrumpot 1 #42 February 24, 2011 Here's the thing Steve... The picture you posted, although an interesting shot angle/perspective in of itself notwithstanding, is something that if you are an AFF instructor with anything more than even just a couple-hundred of AFF-I jumps, we all have probably already seen, in one (similar) way or another. As I've mentioned, I don't (relatively - and relative to a lot of the other AFF-I's on here, and out there) have that much more AFF-I experience than you, and I can tell you I've seen this almost exactly. As well as bridal wraps around a student wrist (temp/cleared), students who will hold their hackey with a death-grip out at full arms extension, etc. The one thing I hadn't seen (or heard of) before, was the (an) AFF-I using a GoPro hand-cam, on his AFFI jumps. So yes, naturally, that is what I have centered/focused on. Is it possible for you to perhaps upload somewhere, the outside video of this jump, and post a link to it for us to see / try to learn from? Would you be willing/able to do that? I truly would like to be able to OPEN-MINDEDLY view/consider all angles and aspects (both literally and figuratively ) on this subject matter. I would hope as an instructor - you would be willing to do the same. coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #43 February 24, 2011 Quote I was hoping to have more of a dialogue from others who had experienced such issues on an AFF jump and what they did. Fair enough - and I am happy to also participate in this as well. As mentioned - I have seen I think, in-air, at least once, almost the exact same thing. A bridal that went under the arm of the self-deploying student, and caused a temporary horseshoe (bridal temp snagging at the students armpit as a result and standing the student nearly upright) during his (was a her actually, in my case) deployment sequence. I was reserve-side for that jump (same as you) - and the only thing I could do at the time (it cleared itself, thankfully - very quickly) was all that I could, and as I was trained - which was to keep my grips to assist with the "ride-out" and do all that I can/could to hold the students (relative) stability. ...IOW, keep them from also turning/tumbling/spinning and possibly thereby potentially worsen their situation if I wasn't there by (potentially, I suppose) wrapping themselves in the bridal, or flipping through deploying lines. I recall the - OH-SHIT moment it inflicted as well, and luckily for me (and apparently for you too) the situation rather quickly, cleared itself. Had the bridal wrapped and not cleared - what would I have done? Would have depended upon the altitude and situation I had on-hand. In other words, you need to be prepared for nearly anything with/in an AFF jump, and expect... the unexpected! That is also why, I don't (personally) think, having a hand-cam on my hand - for nearly any situation I can possibly envision, can in any of them, in any way - possibly ever be of any help. But, it could possibly be a detriment. I am willing to at least consider changes to either my procedures, and/or my equipment used in AFF jumps, as an AFF-I based upon shared wisdom, or collective experience garnered best-practice feedback received. - Are you? So far, it seems as though you are not, and your only intent here remaining now, is unwaiveringly defending your use of the handcam, and that no matter what... you intend to be intractable in that. Just for another example - I am right now also seriously reconsidering my personal (so far) choice to wear / use a fullface helmet on my AFF-I jumps. This is due to another unusual (remember, expect the UN-expected!) situation I personally witnessed - A student REFUSING to release their hackey! ...I don't mean just hesitation or temporary either. I mean the death-grip kind, where junk is now starting to lift out of the main pack-tray and they/we are humming below (their) hard-deck and repeated hand-sweeps, then even hits (beatings ) to their deployment hand by the main-side instructor was not even successful. The mainside instructor in this case (again THANKFULLY) had an open-face helmet, and I watched - again with - while holding the main-bag in place on the students back (felt like the right thing to do in the situation at the very moment) - as the mainside instructor drove in on the student and bit (yes BIT!) the students hand (hard too!)!!! - The student immediately then released, and as the pilot chute then launched, I also simultaneously released the d-bag, and the student actually had a nice, clean "routine" (from there on in) deployment. Had it been me there, over on that main-side, with my full-face on, I would not have had that capability/option available to me to do that. Hopefully, this now - is also contributing, and is the added discussion from your initial post you were looking for, and is also of some further value, to you.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #44 February 24, 2011 Not my fault your writing style sucks ass and you leave out key info, your posts implies other wise and if you don't want hear others points of view then make clear what really happened and not post shit that would lead people to believe your review of the video was done in such a manner and then start cryin about people not having all the facts. And FYI, I think wearing a go pro or any hand cam on your hand for aff is pretty fucking stupid, but to each their own, have a good day.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #45 February 24, 2011 Thanks for the input steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #46 February 24, 2011 What is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #47 February 24, 2011 QuoteWhat is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? I am not a TI. Nor have I ever been even on a tandem jump, ...on either side of the equation (student/passenger or Instructor) personally. So, I don't know if I have the capacity to state a qualified (relevant) comparative opinion. I have however, seen handcam footage done by TI's who use them, and I have seen a few of their set-up's (on the plane, around various DZ's etc.), and I've heard some of the arguments and debate about them, back-n-forth. I don't know if any of that however, is materially germane (or qualifies my "opinion" as they may apply to tandems) here though. My (unqualified) opinion on them for tandems, where you have asked me - and just so as to simply not avoid the question, is that I am not anti-handi-cam for tandems, or abjectly against them for that application (Tandems) - at least as I have observed it. ...But am I qualified to (effectively) further debate or quantify that? Or - specifically delve into the further appropriate application (or not) considerations that would go into ...all the pro's & con's as it would relate at least to Tandem usage and the application (usage) of them in the tandem environment? Or then, even further compare & contrast therefore, any of the nuances or differences as they might apply towards comparing the 2 applications (handi-cam usage in a tandem environment versus an AFF environment)? - No. Because I am not a TM/TI. I'm afraid therefore, I probably cannot add any value to discussing comparison of using a handi-cam set-up in a Tandem Environment, or am able to myself, either find or apply relevance between the 2 - if that is the direction you would now like to go. Maybe others with dual ratings can do that with/for you. I am not Tandem rated, nor directly, personally experienced.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #48 February 24, 2011 QuoteWhat is your opinion of TIs with hand cams? Sorry - Short (direct) answer: I am not against them, for Tandem Instructors to have them available to them, to use them, for tandem jumps, in a tandem environment. Why do you ask?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #49 February 25, 2011 QuoteI am not against them, for Tandem Instructors to have them available to them, to use them, for tandem jumps, in a tandem environment The primary differences between tandem and AFF with regards to handcam is that the tandem is a single entity, and any entanglements are confined to within that single entity. In an AFF jump, the instructor and student are two seperate entities, and an entanglement between the two of them is a much different story. In terms of the rig, in a tandem environment, the TI is the primary operator of the rig, and very little happens without his say so. It's true the student can pull the drouge release, if provided one, but that only produces an unwanted or unplanned event if the drouge is already out, in which case the result is generally a clean deployment. In an AFF jump, the student has a much greater command of their rig, and much greater range of troubles they can create (as the basis of this thread, the horseshoe, is evidence). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #50 February 25, 2011 So you are saying there is no possible situation where a handcam would be a hinderance to a TI who had a malfunction? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
