Forming professional skydiving instructors organization?

[riggerrob 558]

The challenge is vetting volunteers to find ones that have: ethics, work ethic and have done similar jobs at three or more DZs.
That would allow them to decide which method worked best.
Sometimes the method that works best for TIs slows the pilot.
Sometimes what works best for the pilot has TIs running themselves to exhaustion.
Sometimes what works best for the pilot is dangerous for the re-fueling crew.
The challenge is to determine which is the "best practice" in terms of spreading the work load, and fosters teamwork.

[proskydiverorg 0]

I agree when people work as a team the the work place runs like a well balanced, oiled, and tuned machine. I have never been to New Zealand but I hear the drop zones run very efficiently.

[proskydiverorg 0]

I don't want people to know who I am because when I do look for a job I don't want the DZO to think I'm a trouble maker who's trying to form a "UNION" that's going to cause problems at his DZ. I want to make a positive effect on the sport. My time and energy would be better spent just starting my own drop zone, but I want to make a difference in the sport. I love our sport and think it is a excellent career choice for some people.

[davelepka 4]

There's alot of problems with what you're trying to do. Even though there are planty of people who consider themselves 'professional skydivers', there are very few who consider it a 'career choice'. The majority are weekend warriors who have 'day jobs' that pay some or all of the bills.

The majority of the US is limited to seasonal dropzones because of the weather. How can you have a career where you can only work 8 months out of the year.

Speaking of limited working time, how about the weekend factor. Even at year-round DZs, how many tandems and studetns can you expect on a Tuesday morning? Wed? Thurs? Enough to make a career out of?

Then you have the weekends. As we all know, the weather can easily wipe out one or both days at any time. Here in Ohio, we had a run of about four weekends in a row where the weather shut us down for one or 1 1/2 days out of the weekend. The student schedule was full every weekend, but the weather didn't cooperate, so there was no work.

Let's move on. I'm sure that working conditions would be a big factor, but better working conditions cost money. Bigger, faster airplanes, and new tandem rigs would be nice, but where does the money come from?

Higher pay would be nice, but where does the money come from? On this point, I agree that an increase of a buck a jump each year would be nice, but I can't see how you would need an organization to make that happen. I think that if a DZ staff was professional in their appearance, conduct, punctuality, and teamwork, they could easily negotiate that type of pay raise.

There's a ton of reasons why being a professional skydiver is different than being an employee in a more conventional job. You seem to be angling toward the examples set by corporate America, but this job isn't corporate America.

Business isn't hard to understand. You can only pay an employee, in cash or benefits, a small portion of the income that employee can generate. Find a way for a professional skydiver to put in 40 productive hours per week, 50 weeks out of the year, meaning they are providing a service to a paying customer each of those 40 hours, and you'll have grounds for expecting the DZO to act like corporate America.

But really, if you could put in 40 revenue generating hours with students every week for 50 weeks per year, you'd be making upwards of $70k per year, and wouldn't need a 'union' to help you out.

[legalize1966 0]

Can you do it with fair eye on every one or is it going to be taken over by the same group that have taken over USPA and skydiving in the US?

[proskydiverorg 0]

National Household Median Income $44,389 50% of Households make more 50% make less. The median salary for all primary and secondary teachers was $46,000 in 2004. The average yearly salary of firefighters in 2008 was $45,700, according to U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
I know many instructors making 38k-42k at both year round and seasonal DZ's. Work really hard for 6 mo. or work steady all year it comes out to about the same. I think that kind of income qualifies as a career. I've had 4k a week checks working 80 hours, I've made over 1k in a single day. Now that isn't every day or every week but it does happen. So I save my money for when the weather is bad or for the off season. Maybe it should only be for full timers because part timers don't need the money, since they have real jobs and income.

I'm more concerned about the places that are so busy they pay less per jump. You have to work harder for the same amount of money. I have heard TM's say they won't jump for under 40 a jump.
I've also heard of places that pay 25 a jump.

It's probably impossible to get benefits like insurance and retirement, if everyone formed a group I'm sure you could get some sort of plan that you pay in to yourself. It's always better to have group plans than individual plans.

Important working conditions to me are having set day's off and having the opportunity to take a vacation or holiday. When it comes to aircraft and gear all I care about is that it is properly maintained and safe. Which isn't always the case.

[proskydiverorg 0]

I don't understand your question?

[popsjumper 2]

How about a DZO organization?
"We'll pay everyone, everywhere, $25/jump with no days off."

What you are suggesting is trying to force a business owner to hire you meeting YOUR demands.

You don't like working wherever? It's simplicity in itself: go somewhere else.
*sheeesh*

Politics can screw up a wet dream....and you're trying to screw up MY wet dream: Skydiving.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tonyhays 86]

Quote

Politics can screw up a wet dream....and you're trying to screw up MY wet dream: Skydiving.

I'll second that. I'll be damned if I join some sort of skydiving union!!

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[legalize1966 0]

Then maybe you should not be communicating your desire to start some thing along this magnatude.

After your other posts this is just a gripe to force business owners to pay you mare so you can work less or at least "less harder".

And I was hoping that this would be worth while and would get USPA to sit up and take notice and start taking care of the skydivers instead of the DZO's and a few others in their power clique.

[proskydiverorg 0]

In my second post I stated:

"I personally am happy with my pay per jump. However I'm sure their are instructors who are not happy at certain drop zones."

I apologize for not communicating my motives clearly. Here is some of the first steps in forming an organization. This is what I mean when I say I cannot do it alone.

1. Clarify mission, vision, and goals.
EXAMPLE:
1. improving working conditions for skydiving professionals in terms of:
a) wages
b) predictable duty time and days off
c) medical benefits
d) pension options
e) mutual support of wind limits, USPA, FARs, etc.
f) confidential reporting of DZs that do not pay fairly, do not honor contracts, etc.
g) shared data base of earning expectations at different DZs (IOW Will I be able to make a living working at DZ "X" during months "Y and Z?")

We can assign numerical goals (okay $$$) at a later date.

Membership should be limited to instructors in good standing with USPA, CSPA, BPA, APF, UPT, Srong Enterprises, etc.
We might have to establish a separate rating system for videographers. Maybe have videographers submit samples of their portfolios to earn "A", "B" , etc. ratings.

Thanks to RIGGERROB for his post on the mission statement

2. Recruit an initial board of directors.

3. Define purpose, and create bylaws.

4. Hold an initial board meeting; approve bylaws and elect officers.

So it really doesn't matter what I want or think when it comes to opinions. Everything would be voted on and approved by a board or officers.

I think you will find many DZO's disappointed in the support they have received from USPA when they truly needed help. I do understand what you mean by the power clique though. However, I don't want this thread to be a knock down on USPA.

[popsjumper 2]

*whooooosh*

That's the sound of your own poll blowing by you unnoticed.

13% Very Interested/Yeah
27% Undecided
60% No/That's Just Stupid
9/20/09 8:21 pm Eastern

Maybe you are barking up the wrong tree at the wrong time.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

predictable duty time and days off

So what's gonna happen when the DZO hire's more TM/AFF I's/ Coaches to give you guys time off? Your gonna get let customers per instuctor and make less money! If instructors dont think the DZO is fare than go elsewere!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[proskydiverorg 0]

It's all about balance for everyone. An excess of anything is bad...

[pms07 3]

Quote

In my second post I stated:

"I personally am happy with my pay per jump. However I'm sure their are instructors who are not happy at certain drop zones."

I apologize for not communicating my motives clearly. Here is some of the first steps in forming an organization. This is what I mean when I say I cannot do it alone.

1. Clarify mission, vision, and goals.
EXAMPLE:
1. improving working conditions for skydiving professionals in terms of:
a) wages
b) predictable duty time and days off
c) medical benefits
d) pension options
e) mutual support of wind limits, USPA, FARs, etc.
f) confidential reporting of DZs that do not pay fairly, do not honor contracts, etc.
g) shared data base of earning expectations at different DZs (IOW Will I be able to make a living working at DZ "X" during months "Y and Z?")

We can assign numerical goals (okay $$$) at a later date.

Membership should be limited to instructors in good standing with USPA, CSPA, BPA, APF, UPT, Srong Enterprises, etc.
We might have to establish a separate rating system for videographers. Maybe have videographers submit samples of their portfolios to earn "A", "B" , etc. ratings.

Thanks to RIGGERROB for his post on the mission statement

2. Recruit an initial board of directors.

3. Define purpose, and create bylaws.

4. Hold an initial board meeting; approve bylaws and elect officers.

So it really doesn't matter what I want or think when it comes to opinions. Everything would be voted on and approved by a board or officers.

I think you will find many DZO's disappointed in the support they have received from USPA when they truly needed help. I do understand what you mean by the power clique though. However, I don't want this thread to be a knock down on USPA.

According to the poll, you appear to have 9 people "interested". Not to piss on your parade or anything but I'm curious what you really expect to accomplish? Specifically, what would you actually do that would support 1.a.-g.?

And perhaps more importantly, what resources do you have to start a national organization and move toward those goals? Any real organization would take significant $$$ to get off the ground. How would this organization get started financially?

As an aside, skydiving is a fairly small community. Want to learn what people really think and will support? Put your name on your ideas, identify yourself and stand-up for what you are trying to do.

Anyway, for me the organization does not appear to have been well thought out so far....

pms

Poll: Are you interested in a Professional Skydiver Organization?
Very interested 4 / 6%
Yeah 5 / 7%
Mabee, depends on how its managed 19 / 27%
No 27 / 39%
That's just stupid 15 / 21%

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Important working conditions to me are having set day's off and having the opportunity to take a vacation or holiday.

A professional skydiver is essentially a piece worker, and most are independent contractors. You get paid per jump, and only per jump.

If you arrange to have, let's say, Tues/Wed off each week, what do you do when it rains from Thurs thru Mon, and all the rained out students reschedule for Tues/Wed?

Do you take the days off as scheduled, and make no money for a week or longer?

What does the DZO do? If you are scheduled for Tues/Wed off, certainly someone else is scheduled to take your place for those days. Does he restrict you from working those days even if you wanted to?

Again, you're tyring to apply the working conditions of a more conventional job to that of being a professional skydiver. There is no way to change the fact that you are paid per jump, and only per jump.

The weather cannot be scheduled to work around your days off or vacation schedule. If you want to get paid, you need to be at the DZ when the props are turning.

Students are another 'unknown' factor. If a group of tandems wants to jump on a Wed, the DZ will schedule them for Wed. Nobody cares if you're suppose to take Wed off. Even if it's the only group to jump that whole week, the other guys who work on Wed will get paid, and you will not. If you want to get paid, you need to be at the DZ when the props are turning.

The job is what it is. Some DZs are better than others, take your pick. DZ 'A' might pay more, but they frown upon instructors passing out drunk next to the bonfire. DZ 'B' pays less, but they'll throw a blanket over you when you pass out drunk next to the bonfire. Figure out what's important to you, and choose your DZ accordingly.

[proskydiverorg 0]

Yes you would miss out on the money if that was the only day the plane was able to fly. I'm not talking weekends here either. I don't think you need your full staff on Mon-Thur. If everyone is rotating days off you won't make any less money. Yes you might make less one day or two but you will also make more when the other guy is off. This example probably only works with a DZ that has five or more full time instructors, three or more if it is a cessna operation.

[davelepka 4]

Again, you're assuming that the weather will cooperate, and that the DZ will be flying every day. In that case sure, you could juggle days off and probably not take a hit in the paycheck department. But this isn't Applebees where people are there all day every day. It's a DZ where the business is there when it's there, and if you want to be a part of it, you need to be there too.

One more time, the customers also play a role. Even if it's clear, you may have a very slow Wed, and very busy Thurs. If you're not there on Thurs, you'll be a few hundred bucks light at the end of the week. At Applebees, they make sure everyone has the same number of hours. At the DZ they don't schedule anything with you in mind, the customers jump when they want to jump. If you want to work, you need to be there.

Between the weather and the customer scheduling, there's nothing predictable about the available work at a DZ. You can't expect to have a predictable schedule when you work an unpredictable job.

[riggerrob 558]

What does the DZO do? If you are scheduled for Tues/Wed off, certainly someone else is scheduled to take your place for those days. Does he restrict you from working those days even if you wanted to?


......................................................................

Wise DZOs retrict you from working on your scheduled "days off" because working those days annoys other staff and is a recipe for burn-out.

The best DZs (eg Perris) order full-time staff to take a week off - during the middle of the busy season - and get out of town.