popsjumper 2 #1 July 25, 2009 Undermining another Instructor Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply Driven by the "Too High On Final" thread, I thought of this and wondered how you guys would handle it. In general, I'm soliciting opinions on how to handle situations where one AFFI teaches students to do things one way and another AFFI teaches something different. Specifically, how to resolve a conflict of opinion on safety issues when the AFFI that is wrong will not listen to reason and replies with the "I have more jumps than you" attitude when you try to discuss with them. (ASSUMPTION: That doing S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern presents a safety hazard.) Case in point, one AFFI tells students to do S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern while other AFFIs say that's not a good idea. One solution would be to "undermine" the AFFI in the FJC by telling students, "If one of your AFFIs tells you to do XXXX, just say OK but don't do it because of these specific (YYY) safety issues involved." Another solution would be to call the student aside and away from the AFFI and explain why doing those things present safety issues. Another solution would be to bitch-slap the AFFI. LaughLaugh Got others? How would YOU handle a situation like that? Leave the DZOs and the S&TAs out of it. Assume that neither would be able to resolve the conflict. And no, I'm not pointing fingers at anybody nor drilling up drama. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon 5232, SCS 8170, POPS 9398, DS 239 http://www.skydivethefarm.comMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,055 #2 July 25, 2009 QuoteCase in point, one AFFI tells students to do S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern while other AFFIs say that's not a good idea. One can do that at a 182 DZ, but at a Turbine DZ even with a separate student landing area with several students in the air at the same time.... Protocol and professionalism around the students must be synchronous. Is there a way to get both parties with the S&TA for a determination of the right way for that DZ and present such at an Instructor's meeting?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #3 July 25, 2009 I watched a very smooth way of handling this in a recent canopy course taught by two AFFIs. Most of the attendees were licensed jumpers, but there was a student (fresh off AFF) in the class who had learned at another local dropzone. The flare technique he was taught didn't match up with how it was taught at the DZ that was holding the course. The AFFI explained it something like this "Some instructors teach students to flare the way you learned" (and explained why), "but here's how we teach it" (and explained why). There was no undermining, no "our DZ is better than your DZ," just a reasonable explanation of the differences in philosophy. I thought that was a good example of how to handle it in a situation that differs from Bigun's example where you really can't get all the instructors together with the S&TA to talk about it."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #4 July 25, 2009 I agree with Krisanne. Students are also adults and they are certainly capable of making informed decisions regarding this sport. When I am in a situation where there is conflicting instruction being given I try and explain why I teach it my way in terms of safety if it is a safety concern or in other terms of technique or gear wear if that would be more applicable. Again this type of situation does not have to be confrontational.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #5 July 25, 2009 Quote(ASSUMPTION: That doing S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern presents a safety hazard.) Case in point, one AFFI tells students to do S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern while other AFFIs say that's not a good idea. There are many tools that a person can use to get out of a bad situation. Would it be better to do an S-turn or a 180 degree flat turn if the only other option would be to run into a dangerous obstacle like a moving propeller. Most people would agree that not getting into the situation at all would be preferable but most would also agree that given a choice that a 180 degree flat turn could provide a good alternative IF traffic allowed. Can S-turns and 180s be a safety hazard? Yes they can and students should know the hazards but they can also be valuable tools and students should know that too. Most students are learning and they need guidance.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #6 July 26, 2009 Quote Case in point, one AFFI tells students to do S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern while other AFFIs say that's not a good idea. How would YOU handle a situation like that? Leave the DZOs and the S&TAs out of it. Assume that neither would be able to resolve the conflict. This is what the Chief Instructor coordinates among staff via staff meetings. The entire staff has to agree on how to teach each topic. It is not just CC. EPs, FF turns, flare, exit and on and on. As to the specific topic of s-turns: S-turns should be taught, but should be discouraged in the pattern (1000' & below). S-turns can come in handy if you have to land in a tight spot - just ask Larry the Cable Guy ;) S-turns are not optimal, but can be used if slow flight won't be enough or diverting is not possible. You do need to check for traffic before turning. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #7 July 26, 2009 I think that you if you are going to teach anything, then you need to do so thoroughly... teach, - what some thing is, what happens when you do it, when to and when not to do it. All skydivers are adults (by age anyway). If you don't teach S-turns... people will do them anyway, afteral, it's just a series of direction changes but they NEED to know the consequences and all of them (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 July 27, 2009 Thanks Krisanne. Something like that is what I had in mind when I said, "One solution would be to "undermine" the AFFI in the FJC " and is why I put undermine in quotes. I sincerely did not mean anything like, "If Joe Blow tells you to do XXX he's telling you wrong. Ignore him."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 July 27, 2009 Quote...Would it be better to do an S-turn or a 180 degree flat turn if the only other option would be to run into a dangerous obstacle like a moving propeller. You can't be serious. Why waste bandwidth with such blatant rhetoric? Also...the thread is about handling conflict...not about the viability of S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #10 July 27, 2009 Quote ...This is what the Chief Instructor coordinates among staff via staff meetings. The entire staff has to agree on how to teach each topic. It is not just CC. EPs, FF turns, flare, exit and on and on. Oh...if this was only true at EVERY DZ...what a wonderful world it would be. Quote ...S-turns can come in handy if you have to land in a tight spot - just ask Larry the Cable Guy ;) My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #11 July 28, 2009 Quote(ASSUMPTION: That doing S-turns and 180 degree turns in the landing pattern presents a safety hazard.) It appears that based on the quote above that the conflict in question could have had something to do with S-turns and 180 degree turns. The intent of my post was to suggest that perhaps the conflict could be resolved by teaching about both when and when not to do S-turns and 180s. Of course if you prefer to waste bandwidth by posting things like your statement below. I will just sit and laugh at the irony. QuoteYou can't be serious. Why waste bandwidth with such blatant rhetoric? Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #12 July 29, 2009 QuoteThe intent of my post was to suggest that perhaps the conflict could be resolved by teaching about both when and when not to do S-turns and 180s. Yes. A meeting in the middle could apply to most situations, agreed. When do you think would be the proper time to do that...FJC? post-AFF?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary73 8 #13 July 29, 2009 It's fine for different Instructors to have different teaching styles, but we should all be teaching the same material, at least at a particular dropzone. Unfortunately, not all DZOs, S&TAs, and Chief Instructors are willing to do the hard parts of their jobs, including this one. Just another example of the lack of professionalism which is one of the things that keeps skydiving a fringe sport. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #14 July 31, 2009 QuoteIt's fine for different Instructors to have different teaching styles, but we should all be teaching the same material, at least at a particular dropzone. Unfortunately, not all DZOs, S&TAs, and Chief Instructors are willing to do the hard parts of their jobs, including this one. Just another example of the lack of professionalism which is one of the things that keeps skydiving a fringe sport. ........................................................................ Agreed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #15 July 31, 2009 Good point! The other issue is that we often teach simplified techniques during the First Jump Course. This is partly because students tend to be emotionally overwhelmed during their first jump. There is a finite amount of information that any student can absorb on any given day, ergo FJC Instructors tend to fixate on the "must knows." "Dumbed-down" techniques are taught - during the FJC - with the expectation that advanced techniques (e.g. rear riser turns) will be gradually taught later on (IAW USPA's ISP). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thomas_crowe 0 #16 July 31, 2009 QuoteLeave the DZOs and the S&TAs out of it. Assume that neither would be able to resolve the conflict. Andy; I don't that you can leave the DZO and S&TA out of this. The opinions on this issue are so polarized, and each so fervently believes in the validity of their position, that a mutual consensus seems unlikely at best, and can leave students dazed and confused amid the contradictory stances at worst. (they're already suffering from information overload with the FJC). DZ's have S&TA, I believe, for precisely this reason. So that a single authority has the ultimate responsibility about what is and is not acceptable for that DZ.Thomas Crowe, NRP Nationally Registered Paramedic Red Hat Linux Geek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
