Teaching tracking

[Beachbum 0]

Speaking strictly from a non-instructor viewpoint, as someone who was taught the delta initially, to me, that T business makes no sense. Why teach a method of tracking that is not going to ever be part of your skydiving once you advance beyond that stage of development?

To me, the main point I see emerging from this discussion is the need to ensure that a student is taught or at least made aware of the need to learn how to flat track eventually ... not just let them go off after student training thinking the delta is all they need, regardless of the method employed getting them to that point.

"spinning like a frisbee, still hauling ass" ... LOL ... mental image is funny, but I am having problems visualizing how one could do this?? Think I might have to try it ... just start a spin that is slightly off level axis so you are sliding while spinning?? ... have to think it would make cool video, at the very least!!!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Speaking strictly from a non-instructor viewpoint, as someone who was taught the delta initially, to me, that T business makes no sense. Why teach a method of tracking that is not going to ever be part of your skydiving once you advance beyond that stage of development?

To me, the main point I see emerging from this discussion is the need to ensure that a student is taught or at least made aware of the need to learn how to flat track eventually ... not just let them go off after student training thinking the delta is all they need, regardless of the method employed getting them to that point.

"spinning like a frisbee, still hauling ass" ... LOL ... mental image is funny, but I am having problems visualizing how one could do this?? Think I might have to try it ... just start a spin that is slightly off level axis so you are sliding while spinning?? ... have to think it would make cool video, at the very least!!!

I can certainly understand your viewpoint, and have felt the same way too. Maybe a good analogy would be how we taught the hard arch position to static line students, then later taught them to relax into a boxman position. Go for stability first, max performance later. I think any initial tracking training should include the mention of more efficient tracks to be taught later.

[monkycndo 0]

Off topic, but hate the "Hard Arch" description. That sounds like you need to be tense. Much prefer the "Deep arch" term. Better describes what you are trying to get across. Also easier to visualize.

Back to the actual thread topic. I teach delta.

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[ufk22 32]

Speaking strictly from a non-instructor viewpoint, as someone who was taught the delta initially, to me, that T business makes no sense. Why teach a method of tracking that is not going to ever be part of your skydiving once you advance beyond that stage of development?
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Actually, the T position is where you should start your track, especially on big-ways, but really on all dives. The goal of the track is to cover as much horizontal while giving up the least vertical. When I teach tracking to advanced students, I teach to get there arms out in the T while turning to slow the vertical, de-arch a bit and get their legs out to start moving, and pull the arms in as they roll their shoulders forward. You won't be the fastest initially leaving the formation, but you'll cover a lot more ground without giving up the altitude.
It's fun to look underneath and see how much altitude some "flat trackers" are really losing.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[steelyeye 0]

John,

You won't remember me, but Valinda and you coached me on a very early post-license jump. Your professionalism, friendliness and general skydiving abilities motivated me to become not only a skydiver, but a coach, instructor and coach examiner.

Here are my thoughts (as a USPA coach examiner, SDU course director, AFFI):

A lot of experienced skydivers really can not track. They really dive away from the formation. The first thing we should be teaching students is to have heading control away from the formation while minimizing vertical acceleration. This means adopting a "T" body position, extending legs (thighs first, then shins, and sweeping arms back to a stable 90 degree position). After they are comfortable with this position, we can "tweak" it in with arms further back, cupping the chest and shoulders, and extending from toes to head and refine their abilty to minimize vertical fall rate while maximizing horizontal speed.

IMHO, most skydivers are not good trackers; they really delta away from formations. I think this is a major area of improvement for all skydivers. I was fortunate enough to be coached by people like you who valued tracking dives as an important part of the newbie skydiver training program!

Having had this kind of background, I think this phased approach to teaching good tracking (not just delta refinement into track) is the right way to go.

Blue skies - Bill

"Better a has-been than a never-was. Better a never-was than a never-tried-to-be..."

[JohnMitchell 14]

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You won't remember me, but Valinda and you coached me on a very early post-license jump. Your professionalism, friendliness and general skydiving abilities motivated me to become not only a skydiver, but a coach, instructor and coach examiner.

One of the best things in the world is to have a positive effect in someone else's life. Thanks for spending time with us. I am blessed to have gotten to work with so many people just starting out in a sport I love.

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Here are my thoughts (as a USPA coach examiner, SDU course director, AFFI):

A lot of experienced skydivers really can not track. They really dive away from the formation. The first thing we should be teaching students is to have heading control away from the formation while minimizing vertical acceleration. This means adopting a "T" body position, extending legs (thighs first, then shins, and sweeping arms back to a stable 90 degree position). After they are comfortable with this position, we can "tweak" it in with arms further back, cupping the chest and shoulders, and extending from toes to head and refine their abilty to minimize vertical fall rate while maximizing horizontal speed.

IMHO, most skydivers are not good trackers; they really delta away from formations. I think this is a major area of improvement for all skydivers. I was fortunate enough to be coached by people like you who valued tracking dives as an important part of the newbie skydiver training program!

Having had this kind of background, I think this phased approach to teaching good tracking (not just delta refinement into track) is the right way to go.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to rethink my approach to tracking instruction. I fully agree with you that so many skydivers do not even begin to track well. Like Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Good Men", "You can't handle the truth." So many people, many with gold wings and more, can't track worth a darn.

[Beachbum 0]

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Actually, the T position is where you should start your track, especially on big-ways, but really on all dives. The goal of the track is to cover as much horizontal while giving up the least vertical. When I teach tracking to advanced students, I teach to get there arms out in the T while turning to slow the vertical, de-arch a bit and get their legs out to start moving, and pull the arms in as they roll their shoulders forward. You won't be the fastest initially leaving the formation, but you'll cover a lot more ground without giving up the altitude.
It's fun to look underneath and see how much altitude some "flat trackers" are really losing.

I'll have to pay a little more attention to that particular part of some jumps to be sure, but what I THINK I am doing is similar. If I am doing what I believe I am on reflection, I tend to keep my arms out while I turn, not in a T, but more like boxman position. I agree it must help keep me from bleeding altitude as fast, because I have noticed that I am often above much more experienced folks as we start to get separation in our respective tracks. Of course, being built how I am helps in that also (tall, skinny!!).

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[ufk22 32]

I'll have to pay a little more attention to that particular part of some jumps to be sure, but what I THINK I am doing is similar. If I am doing what I believe I am on reflection, I tend to keep my arms out while I turn, not in a T, but more like boxman position. I agree it must help keep me from bleeding altitude as fast, because I have noticed that I am often above much more experienced folks as we start to get separation in our respective tracks. Of course, being built how I am helps in that also (tall, skinny!!).
_________
Getting your arms straighter than the "box" with your arms straight out and your hands about 6" below your chest will slow you even more as you start your track, and with your arms in the T you'll get more initial drive from your legs.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[Beachbum 0]

thanks ... will give it a try.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[skydude2000 3]

I was briefly taught the 'T' position again mainly for stability, and now I'm working more on bringing my arms further back to minimize altitude loss.

But while we're on the topic of teaching, on my last jump I was told that I waited before I started my track. I think this was mainly because I was trying to choose a heading and took too long.

That's one of the things in this thread that has me confused. The idea is to turn 180 and track away from the centre, yes? But if you're tracking perpendicular to jump run, how do you make sure not to track into someone, or that someone tracks into you?

Sorry for the aside, just wanted to clear that up while I think of it.

Thanks!!

PULL!! or DIE!!

[JohnMitchell 14]

If you have only two people, it's not too hard to both track perpendicular to jump run. With larger groups, not everyone can do that safely. Therefore, it comes down to awareness. If you have to track up or down the line of flight, track only as far as you need to get separation from your group, then stop, wave off, and pull. No need to track "over the horizon" and get in someone else's airspace.

The typical spacing used by most DZ's these days seems to allow for that. After I open on each jump, I like to check my separation with the previous and following groups. If I feel there was not safe separation, I try to discuss it with the others after landing and see what we can do to fix the problem.

[livendive 8]

John, was it me who said that? If so, I must have miscommunicated. For the most party I get them back to a delta early on, and if they're solid and I still have time with them, I'll move them closer to a full track. If they're struggling, I might have them do a "T" between the boxman and the delta, but it's definitely not something I describe as a track. Once they've shown me they can move a bit and remain stable & altitude aware (i.e. they don't need an AFF-I), I'll pass 'em off to coaches for fine-tuning. Prior to their A-license, they'll get a check-out dive with me or another instructor, and that's when they must demonstrate a decent track (for their experience level).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnMitchell 14]

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John, was it me who said that?

Nah, just piecing together the best way to teach all this. Back when I was taught tracking, belly wart and all, my instructor taught the max track, right out of the gate. Worked okay for me but not always for others. However, I wanted input on how others were teaching it. It's good to hear about your very structured approach. That certainly overcomes my worry that training for students may stop at just the delta, and they may never learn to really track.

Like I said earlier, I've seen plenty of Gold wingers that still don't seem to know how to track.

[Dutton 0]

An effective way to teach tracking is by telling the student that the tracking position is infinitely variable and as it becomes more efficient, it becomes less stable.
Start out with your legs completely straight, slightly de-arch and sweep your arms at 45 or so, but limit your aggressiveness only as far as stability (exact heading control) allows...
In other words, put them on the ground and show them how to smoothly move into a tracking position while maintaining precise heading control. The speed and floatiness can come later. Every time you track you will further refine your position and try for more performance, I am still doing this almost twenty years in... There really is no one type of tracking position for everyone. We are all shaped differently and have different capacities for stability. You can't tell them what position will work, but you can show them how to find out for themselves!
Whatever you do, don't accept any off heading tracking- patience is important in learning this.

[sebinoslo 0]

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I could be wrong (and frequently I am), but I tell them "Get your speed up with your toes first. Bring your hands back and in from the boxman position to about your shoulders, and eventually we'll start the transition to a more delta type position as you pick up speed going away.."

If I understood correctly, I agree completely ;-)
for me I went from the box shape, and simply focused on the legs first, putting them together and squeezing the muscles to make sure they were straight. once the legs are taken care of, they become once less variable to worry about.

From then I would bring my hands by my shoulders, elbows about 45 degrees back, once stable and with heading (always with heading!) I would straighten my arms to delta slowly and again, once stable, bring the hands close to my hips.

It is a very progressive way, no big/sudden changes to the body shape, which allow to go back to the previous stable position instantly.

So, when you wrote "get your speed from your toes first", i read: fix the legs position first :-)

[Dutton 0]

Exactly right.
If you dont completely straighten your legs, it makes no difference what you are doing with your arms or torso...
Thinking about your toes also brings awareness all the way down your legs, another good instructional tip for those with stiff or noodle legs.

[sebinoslo 0]

Does anyone have a link to a good tracking video?
And by tracking I mean when the whole body is only one line, with the shoulders and chin inside; maybe even hands below the hips rather than on the sides...

I can only find videos where people do a delta and chill...

[Butters 0]

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Does anyone have a link to a good tracking video?
And by tracking I mean when the whole body is only one line, with the shoulders and chin inside; maybe even hands below the hips rather than on the sides...

Shoulders and chin inside? Hands below the hips rather than on the sides? That doesn't sound like good tracking ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[sebinoslo 0]

this increases the lift the same way that you de-arch, the shoulders and chin inside increases the amount of lift, since it traps air.

regarding the hands inside rather than on the side, a guy mentioned it and he was wearing a tracking "suit" (2 pieces, jacket + pants)

[Butters 0]

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this increases the lift the same way that you de-arch, the shoulders and chin inside increases the amount of lift, since it traps air.

It doesn't increase lift, it increases drag ... if you want to track well you want to decrease drag.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Viss 0]

I feel you want to maximize your surface area looking from the "top" to trap as much air as possible and create "potential energy", while minimizing your surface area when looking from the "front" to keep from creating drag during your horizontal movement and make the most efficient use of that potential energy. (run on sentence) Think of tracking in terms of doing head down sideways, substituting fall rate for horizontal movement. This is how i visualize it.
When i teach tracking, i would prefer to see a student track straight over tracking fast in the beginning. Going fast is pointless if you're unknowingly tracking in a big circle over/under/around other jumpers. It would almost be better not to track at all if that's the case. To those that think teaching the "jesus track" or "iron cross" track in the beginning is pointless, i would disagree. I explain WHY the student is tracking, not just the body position they need to get in. I explain that what they are learning at first is less efficient than a max track but more stable and easier to control heading. I tell them that as they start their track and feel stable/comfortable, to start slowly moving the arms back a little at a time and dearching more and more. If they feel unstable or heading control is an issue, move it a step back towards the Jesus track or arch a little more. If they feel stable, sweep the arms a little more and cup harder. I explain it like its a gas pedal that can be pushed farther or let up on as needed. As they gain experience and stability over the course of jumping, the Jesus Track will be left at the wayside naturally when speed is the goal. All tracking is basically the same, you just need different mixes of "top area" and "frontal area" and arch to get the desired effect, be it forward speed, diff fall rate, or just stability. With the big picture approach, as opposed to just teaching body position, i have had some good successes.
As a disclaimer, i only have 800 jumps, although over half have been as JM at my small time Cessna DZ. My teaching methods and explanations evolve as i find better ways to present the material, so please comment or correct where you think it would be helpful. Hope i wasn't TOO long winded but tracking and wingsuit is my passion, behind my students of course.

Paul

[riggerrob 558]

Summary: first we learn how to track straight,
THEN we learn how to track fast.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Summary: first we learn how to track straight,
THEN we learn how to track fast.

Some people never get to the flat track part. They go fast . . . downwards.