matthewcline 0 #1 March 8, 2008 OK all here is the scenario: US DZ, USPA GM DZ, USPA Individual Member and Instructor. Tandem Progression using 5 Tandems, 1 Clear and Pull then off to Harness hold 1 on 1 Instruction. For the Harness hold portion what kind of Instructor ("I") is needed? My Opinion is an AFF-I.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #2 March 8, 2008 From the USPA website, open the current SIM as a PDF and search "harness hold." http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/2008SIM.pdfArrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #3 March 8, 2008 Harness hold = AFFI The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #4 March 8, 2008 I did that and only posted this to see if there was any other person, besides the one who explained the program, who thought an AFF-I was not needed.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #5 March 9, 2008 QuoteOK all here is the scenario: US DZ, USPA GM DZ, USPA Individual Member and Instructor. Tandem Progression using 5 Tandems, 1 Clear and Pull then off to Harness hold 1 on 1 Instruction. For the Harness hold portion what kind of Instructor ("I") is needed? My Opinion is an AFF-I. The progression from tandem to clear-and-pull (without an intervening PRCP) is not authorized by BSR. If that is the program in use, it is in violation of the BSRs. If there is a PRCP before the successful clear-and-pull, then the student may progress to freefall in a SL/IAD program, supervised by a Coach or Instructor. (Since a Coach rating is a prerequisite for an Instructor rating, it doesn't matter whether the Instructor is rated for SL, IAD, AFF, or Tandem.) Since the BSRs do not require SL progression students to do some number of 5, 10, 20, or 30 second delays, a student has been cleared for freefall may go to 10,000 or 13,000 like everybody else. Maybe not wise, but permitted by the BSRs. Then the issue becomes whether a Coach or SL/IAD or Tandem Instructor may do a linked exit or dock with a student. The ISP may suggest "no," but the ISP is not controlling. As long as the DZO is careful to describe the program as a variation of SL/IAD progression, I think it is possible to within the BSRs. Again, that assumes there is a PRCP before the clear-and-pull -- and please do not make the assumption that I think such a program is prudent. Mark Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #6 March 9, 2008 Harness hold=AFFI.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 March 9, 2008 A harness hold on ANY student is an AFF-I, without a dout...... www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #8 March 9, 2008 QuoteHarness hold = AFFI ditto steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #9 March 9, 2008 Is it not writen that the Coach ma ydo a linkedexit but only in the catergories working on group freefall skills? So the AFF-I is required up to and through the stability drills and then the clearenceto selfe supervision andcoaching? I noticed the need for the PRCP as well and was told to "Stuff it". The ISP allows for any combination of teaching method a DZ wants to use, as long as the transition protocal is met and with the right I's.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #10 March 9, 2008 Quote Is it not written that the Coach may do a linked exit but only in the categories working on group freefall skills? It isn't written in the BSRs. The skill progression in the ISP is recommended, not required. The IRM says Coaches may make linked exits with students cleared for group freefall, but does not prohibit Coaches from making linked exits before that (in a SL/IAD progression, at least). I don't know whether the BOD considers IRM limits to be mandatory (like BSRs) or recommended (like ISP). Quote So the AFF-I is required up to and through the stability drills and then the clearance to self-supervision and coaching? A Coach may supervise instability drills in a SL/IAD progression program (BSR E.4.a.(4)). Quote I noticed the need for the PRCP as well and was told to "stuff it." That makes it easy, then. Once a dz has decided to deliberately ignore one of the BSRs, you may as well ignore the rest of them, too -- they may as well use whatever instructors they want and make it up as they go along.Sigh. The whole controversy seems so pointless, so easily avoidable by just sticking a PRCP in between the tandems and the clear-and-pull. I think I know the dz you refer to, and I am disappointed to hear what my friends there are doing. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #11 March 9, 2008 In the BSR's I fugured E.6.a to be clear and mean, that is when coach may do linked exits. In the previous BSR it has no mention of a linked exit by a IAD or SL I as a advancement criteria. All this DZ needs to do is put in the PRCP and go with the delays from then on, no need to ask a Non-AFF-I to risk a suspension of his/her other ratings, right?An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #12 March 10, 2008 QuoteAll this DZ needs to do is put in the PRCP and go with the delays from then on, no need to ask a non-AFF-I to risk a suspension of his/her other ratings, right? That's the way I read the cross-over training requirements. Cheers, Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NSEMN8R 0 #13 March 11, 2008 Quote The whole controversy seems so pointless, so easily avoidable by just sticking a PRCP in between the tandems and the clear-and-pull. If the student pulls on the tandems, would that count as the PRCP? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #14 March 11, 2008 QuoteQuote The whole controversy seems so ... easily avoidable by just sticking a PRCP in between the tandems and the clear-and-pull. If the student pulls on the tandems, would that count as the PRCP? No. BSR E.5.b requires a "solo exit and practice deployment with stability in the IAD or static line program prior to advancing to freefall." Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #15 March 15, 2008 From a top USPA Official. Insert a Practice clear and pull (IAD or SL) and keep on in IAD or Staticline. or Insert a Practice Clear and pull and go AFF USING an AFF-I. or Go strait to AFF using an AFF-I. From ME: Bottom line the ISP has a way to do it SAFE, why not use it? FYI- UPT, Strong and Jump Shack do not authorize a harness hold jump UNLESS you are a AFF-I already.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schoenauer 0 #16 March 31, 2008 Tandem/I = For tandem progression AFF/I = For harness hold SL/IAD = For those methods this includes the clear and pull portion. As far as the I’s have it you will need all three to stay clean. Move the clear and pull portion of your program to when the student has been cleared to self jumpmaster via AFF. Why do you have Five levels in your Tandem Progression Program, required before single instructor AFF?Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #17 March 31, 2008 Ain't my program. I was trying trying to figure out "why" myself. As far as I could tell jumps #4 and 5 where just fillers any way. But the USPA answer is just like yours (only relavent as the program mentioned is run by a USPA member).An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
