DZ'Os and safety

[skydiverjerry 0]

hi guys,

this question if for instructors only please,
do all you instructors out there have an opinion as to whether DZO'S ever put money ahead of safety?

please note that i'm not trolling
what i am looking for is your honest opinion's
blue skies

[rsibbald 0]

Unfortunately, it happens.

This is why I prefer DZs where the DZO is not the person making the calls, but a dedicated chief instructor / safety officer is.

Edit to add: For example, I have seen pushing the limits on kit, packing, cloud, aircraft maintenance, winds, daylight, visibility, safety checks etc.

[skydiverton 0]

I know dropzone's which do.

I do not like these dropzones. I want good equipment to work with.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[scooterskydives 0]

I think that if I was ever giving the opt. to work at such a place, I think I'd step in and voice my concern and if unsafe, chose not to jump. Besides the students don't know any better, they look to us as the professionals. We've had them show up at the DZ with the winds howling at 40+ on the ground and they don't understand why they can't jump, its crystal blue skies.

If God wanted man to stay on the ground.
He would of put roots on them instead of feet.
loving life
GO-N-UP

[AggieDave 6]

Does it happen? Yes, I've seen it happen before. However, not every DZO is evil. My DZO listens to my opinion. When my opinion says "conditions are not safe" he understands. Never once have I been forced into jumping or even felt like I was being forced. Now when I first got my rating, I had a couple of times that I had to say "its ok out there, but I don't feel comfortable with my skill set." The DZO was understanding, he did the jumps or another TI did the jumps and they helped me learn.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skydiverjerry 0]

Quote

Does it happen? Yes, I've seen it happen before. However, not every DZO is evil. My DZO listens to my opinion. When my opinion says "conditions are not safe" he understands. .

it was not my intent to create the theory that DZO's are evil, far from it DZ owners provide us as instructors with a living (kind of) and we live in times were if you dont make sufficient capital to sustain the operation then you close.
i know it happens i to have been in situations were dzo has asked us to take the load when we know it was not the best conditions (be it gear weather or what ever) some times its a subtle hint from them like just saying they will take the load or pushing the call.
we should be honest about this, it happens.

[Hooknswoop 19]

It's no big secret that safety gets pushed aside for profit by DZO's all the time. When an engine is 2,000 hrs past a 3,600 TBO, what do you think takes prioity?

Derek

[tspillers 0]

Derek,

Remember only Part 135 needs to do overhauls at TBO. This is a guideline and there should be some criteria that a DZ/their mechanic is using to determine that the engine is still in good condition.

We hope to be going beyond TBO soon. The engine has had a top end overhaul and the crankshaft/case isn't showing any signs of significant wear.

We would be happy with 1.5 times TBO, but there is no reason with proper maintenance and procedure that you can't go more.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Remember only Part 135 needs to do overhauls at TBO. This is a guideline and there should be some criteria that a DZ/their mechanic is using to determine that the engine is still in good condition.

I am very aware that for Part 91, TBO's do not have to be followed. But an engine is going to fail eventually and I don't think flying it until it fails is a good idea for jump planes. If their mechanic used some criteria to determine if the engine was OK, he needs to re-think that criteria. 5,600+ hours w/o an overhaul is crazy for a PT-6 that is being used for passenger revenue flights. Even though the passengers are jumpers, they still deserve a well maintained aircraft.

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We hope to be going beyond TBO soon. The engine has had a top end overhaul and the crankshaft/case isn't showing any signs of significant wear.

That is much different from flying it until it breaks.

Quote

We would be happy with 1.5 times TBO, but there is no reason with proper maintenance and procedure that you can't go more.

Then this engine must not have had the proper maintenance. You have to be very careful running an engine past TBO, which you sound like you are. I have seen too many PT-6's (and jump ships) run into the ground.

I have seen DZO's put profit ahead of safety all too often.

Derek

[tspillers 0]

Actually, we are at less than 1300 total and about 750 since top.

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[riggerrob 558]

A few DZOs put money ahead of safety and there are a few DZOs that I will never work for again.

Sometimes DZOs ask tandem instructors to push wind limits. Some days we do and some days we don't, but when several senior TIs decide to "sit it out," DZOs usually listen. Young TIs are usually bright enough to sit it out when their elders stay on the ground.

As for cheating on parachute maintenance, I have told more than one DZO that a line set is nearing the end of its life and I will cheerfully install it, all he has to do is order the line kit from the factory. If he has not ordered the new line kit before the end of the season, I simply do not return the next spring.

As for operating engines beyond TBO, Transport Canada has clear guidelines involving spectrographic oil analysis, regular compression checks, etc. I have no qualms about flying engines beyond TBO, PROVIDED they have no visible corrosion, only minor oil leaks, etc.

[AggieDave 6]

I don't know about the oil stuff, but I know in the states a compression check is done at the 100hr inspection.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lug 4]

I see that you are UK and that cool that you have noticed something on your end of the pond. I will respect your request and keep names out of it and go a little further and keep the USPA region out of it also, but it does pain me. The two biggest areas that concern me is aircraft maintenance and how DZ operate their turbine aircraft.

There is one DZO that should be shot in the head for the poor maintenance with his aircraft. This DZ has forced landings at the rate of once a year over the last three. No BS, this involve turbine and reciprocating powered aircraft.

As for the turbine, especially twin otters, I know more then one but less then 10, DZ that operate their Supper Otters fitted with PW PT6-37 well above the specifications outlined in the STC for the conversion on otters with 100 or 200 series wings. I am simply saying, the operators are applying more power through the wing with the dash 37s engine than what the wing was designed for.

DZO's do this to make a little extra coin with more loades per hour, or they put off a large expense until they want to do the maintenance. Does bother me? Yes, it does, I work in maintenance in heavy industry and know what good and poor maintenance can do to an operation where down time is simply lost revenue.

Scheduled maintenance coupled with preventative maintenance will make money as long as equipment abuse is not tolerated.

Sorry to vent, but you asked.

Memento Mori

[skydiverjerry 0]

thanks for the vent no appologie nesc do you know if caa or faa has a confidential reporting system? and or have you talked to the pilot about this?

i am not a pilot! but you could talk to them about this issue!

anyway good skydives dude!

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[USPA 0]

This question cannot be answered. What is safe?

Every DZ makes profit at the cost of safety. We aren't always jumping in ideal weather, simply because it rarely is ideal weather. We don't reline student canopies every 200 hundered jumps, but it would be better. Where do you draw the line? safty isn't a measurble standard, it's a big grey area.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[AggieDave 6]

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safty isn't a measurble standard, it's a big grey area.

I think that a statement like this is a little too "blanket" if you will.

There are definate lines of black and white, especially when it comes to legal issues and AC maintance.

For instance "ideal" weather is different for every person. I know quite a few people that like having 5-10mph to "help them land" where as I would prefer there to be no wind for some fun swooping. Where does that change? When weather is a little more drastic. Storm fronts moving in, lightening, cloud clearance issues, etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[USPA 0]

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There are definate lines of black and white, especially when it comes to legal issues and AC maintance.

Yes, but both are rules. Safefty can never be secured by rules. They do help alot. AC maintenance is not a problem overhere (The Netherlands) The plane simply can't fly if the maintenance isn't ok. (very strict goverment rules)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[AggieDave 6]

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The plane simply can't fly if the maintenance isn't ok. (very strict goverment rules)

Well, that's basically the rule here too...

Have you ever had a reserve repack date simply signed off on your card (aka pencil whipping) instead of having it actually repacked?

The same thing happens with AC sometimes, be it the A&P, the DZO or whoever. That's part of the problem. Or they fly the plane illegally without getting the maintance done.


It seems our countries have similar rules inplace, but as with many things in life, if someone wants to circumvent the rules, they do.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[USPA 0]

Ah, I am used at outsourced maintenance. I see the problem here... Dangerous territory especially in the court happy USA....

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[lug 4]

While looking newer post on this thread and of course re-reading my own statement I need to make a correction. The DZO converting their Otters to the higher output engine are not fitted with PW PT6-37 considering Pratt and Whitney do not make a dash 37 but rather I meant to say PT6-34, my bad.

Memento Mori

[divnswoop 0]

So your saying that twin otters with -34's can't be operated within the limitations of the airframe? If the engines are not ran at 100% and below the torque that the plane is rated for, where is the problem?

As far as DZO's and managers....I worked at a dz that did random drug tests... and been at Dz's where the manager was messed up on drugs every night. I've seen loads not go up because the wind was blowing past 20, loads that went up IN winds blowing 25 gusting to 35, and dz's that didn't even have a wind meter. The more you travel the more you see.....of course nothing surprises me anymore.

[linestretch 0]

yeah, well I heard you are gay, is that true?

my pics & stuff!

[killler 2]

When I ran My DZ some jumpers would not jump here because I put Safety over Money..... Students are the hardest to deal with... I found that everyone needs to be on the same page.... Nothing worst then experienced jumpers arguing about the safety of jumping in front of students....

Killer.....

[skydiverjerry 0]

Quote

When I ran My DZ some jumpers would not jump here because I put Safety over Money..... Students are the hardest to deal with... I found that everyone needs to be on the same page.... Nothing worst then experienced jumpers arguing about the safety of jumping in front of students....

Killer.....

had that very problem yesterday winds howling! low cloud sorry guys you cant jump and then they blame you for the weather!

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[raff 4]

While you deny that the original question is a troll, that is exactly what it is. You offer no reason for the question, what you plan to do with the responses/results/"data" you accumulate, or any explanation at all of your agenda. If this is just a moridly curious inquiry, you should identify it as such, but most of us know better.

You have already made up your mind and are looking for corroboration. I would discourage responses to this thread unless they contain some corrective/remedial action we all might take.

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.