livendive 8 #1 June 23, 2004 I've searched the forums and only found a few posts on this. With a brand spanking new rating, I'm wondering how many people do what and why. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #2 June 23, 2004 NEVER give Instruction while under canopy! Flying and talking to some student will only cause you to be less aware of the OTHER canopies in the air. After the student has pulled, they are essenially on their own until they land. The radio is only a BACKUP! DO NOT let your students rely on it! They sometimes fail and then they have no one but themselves. Try to only give the corrections they may need and try and not give too much help unless you see they need it, and ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE LANDED SAFELY! -www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phlip 0 #3 June 23, 2004 I don't usually talk to my students when I'm under canopy... but once in a while a little: "turn 180 and come back towards the landing area" helps. Isn't putting the student back on the right track a situation where a "backup" would be needed? Phlip AFFI/TM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #4 June 23, 2004 QuoteI don't usually talk to my students when I'm under canopy... but once in a while a little: "turn 180 and come back towards the landing area" helps. Isn't putting the student back on the right track a situation where a "backup" would be needed? It is ONLY a back up. And your radio (back up) sometimes fails to get through to the student, whether it be because they couldnt understand what you have said, the static on the radio blocked what you said or the batteries simply ran out. If the student can not find the correct directon to the landing area, yes, sometimes alittle help is ok. But not under canopy and taking YOUR attention off the other canopies around YOU. I think if your paying all your attention to your student still while YOUR under canopy, then maybe you are not safely flying your canopy. Land safely and then talk. Spiral if you have to land quickly to give help to him or her. Now if there are only 2 people in the air, you and him out of a C182 or something, thats alittle different. You are putting no one else under canopy in danger of you not paying attention to your canopy flying. We (AFF I's) teach students that if they cant find the correct landing area to land in, to then just land in an open area preferably away from power lines, building and other objects, right? Be safe. -www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #5 June 23, 2004 Never thought it was a good idea for the J/M to carry the radio on him to use under canopy......what if he has a mal......the student will not get the instruction they need..... Always trained my students to do it by themselves as if a radio wasn't gonna be there, and told them about it just before the jump.......there were many times when I said nothing to them under canopy because they were doing fine without it..............most students came off it completely after 3 or 4 jumps.....they were quite capable and confident of their canopy control......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 June 23, 2004 I carry a radio. If the situation calls for it, I most certainly will attempt to contact the student while under canopy. It's my radio anyway, so back up or not, I have it, and won't hesitate to use it if I feel it's warranted. Note that I said "if it's warranted". You can "what if" scenarios all you want to. Carrying it has come in handy before, and there's been a couple times I wish had it when I didn't. Congratulations on the new rating. Use it wisely and be safeMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #7 June 23, 2004 I leave the radio in the bowl. Which ever instructor lands closest to it picks it up. On one on ones the increased chance that I won't get to it (still pretty small) is offset by their increased canopy experience. Our students do not do first jump PFF, but have at least one solo IAD jump first. On these jumps I insist on having an instructor stationed in the DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #8 June 23, 2004 QuoteI've searched the forums and only found a few posts on this. With a brand spanking new rating, I'm wondering how many people do what and why. Bad Idea for multiple reasons. 1) Awareness. You'll be paying too much attention to things other than flying your parachute. 2) I have a friend who used to do that till one day he's standing on the ground with his rig on post landing, keys the mike to give an instruction and feels his reserve pilot chute launch. Uh-huh, cypres fire. Not worth the risk.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #9 June 23, 2004 QuoteIt's my radio anyway, so back up or not, I have it, and won't hesitate to use it if I feel it's warranted. Note that I said "if it's warranted". That's kind of my initial thought on the subject. I don't want to make it a habit but I'd like to have the option in an unusual situation. QuoteCongratulations on the new rating. Use it wisely and be safe Thanks. Wisely and safely are definitely my goals. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #10 June 23, 2004 Quote1) Awareness. In the cases I've used it, it has not been an issue.For instance: I pulled at 10 or 11 grand with the student that needed to be under a parachute more than he needed to be in freefall. You can't hear a radio if you're 3 miles away from it. (2 miles up, and 1 mile out flying the wrong way) I'm not worried about other jumpers raining down on me. I jump at a single King Air DZ. QuoteUh-huh, cypres fire. Not worth the risk. This is not an issue with my rig. The student rigs have a Cypres. I've yet to see one fire. If it were such an issue, we'd be replacing cutters every day.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #11 June 23, 2004 QuoteBad Idea for multiple reasons. 1) Awareness. You'll be paying too much attention to things other than flying your parachute. I agree that's a definite concern that needs to be taken into consideration. Quote2) I have a friend who used to do that till one day he's standing on the ground with his rig on post landing, keys the mike to give an instruction and feels his reserve pilot chute launch. Uh-huh, cypres fire. Not worth the risk. Not a risk for me at the present time as I don't have an AAD. With some experience I may decide that purchasing one for AFF jumps is a prudent move, but I'm having a hard time rationalizing such a decision with my belief that one shouldn't ever make a jump with an AAD that they wouldn't be willing to make without one. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 June 23, 2004 QuoteFor instance: I pulled at 10 or 11 grand with the student that needed to be under a parachute more than he needed to be in freefall. Bit different scenario. QuoteThis is not an issue with my rig. No Cypres? Cool no problem. QuoteThe student rigs have a Cypres. I've yet to see one fire. If it were such an issue, we'd be replacing cutters every day. Are the radios on your student rigs transmiting? I'm not saying it happens every day. But it has happend, more than once. I'd rather not take the rish of transmitting under canopy. It's only a few seconds (with my parachutes) till I'd be on the ground anyway.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #13 June 23, 2004 Transmitting... good point. No they are not. I'm using that scenario as a reason to carry one. There are some scenarios I'd rather have one than not. For General purposes, I don't turn it on. I'm a firm believer in the instructor using his own head to determine if it's necessary. As a general practice? It's simply not worth it. The first time I saw a student under a canopy at around 12 grand ... and none of the Instructors pulled, it amazed me. The instructors just simply tracked away from each other... at 12 GRAND!!! This was on video and put on a jack ass tape. Anyway, about a year previous, from inside the aircraft, I watched an instructor pull immeadiatly when his student was deployed off the step (gotta love leg mounted ripcords). That's the instructor I wanted to be like when I grew up. Edit to add: If you're at the long end of a spot, and pull high to get back, it takes much longer than a few seconds to reach the ground... Mr Tandem InstructorMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phlip 0 #14 June 23, 2004 If on a long spot, the student starts to fly away from the DZ, I would correct the student quickly right away *before* getting on the ground. I am sure one can be talking on a radio for 2 seconds to say "turn around" while looking for other canopies. Too many instructions from the air are to be avoided though. I understand what you're saying: the radio is supposed to be for backup only. But it is also a tool that we can use to teach and/or help avoid injuries. To me using a radio is like using hand signals, although they are supposed to know how to open their chute at the correct altitude stable, sometimes they need a little help. They are supposed to know how to recognize the DZ and do a nice pattern, but sometimes they need a little help. Always give them a chance to learn... and then it's your turn to assist them. All that to say: limit radio communication from your canopy to a minimum, wait to be on the ground to assist more if needed. Why can't we use the radios as a teaching tool to reinforce a concept or avoid a mistake? My 2 cents... Phlip Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #15 June 23, 2004 My radios are easily able to be heard at 5 miles on the ground.... in line of sight....much further..... The student can transmit but I tell them not to do so unless they land off the dz and have a problem or need directions to the pickup truck........... Good quality radios are essential, and expensive, but worth their weight in gold.......one of the better investments you can make.......but you must have a quality well trained radio man on the end of it..........not just any old Joe who comes along..... Pilots in aircraft don't make good air traffic controllers, especially with lots of air traffic around....... Its a good idea to carry a backup with you though, a good communication system never caused a problem......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 100 #16 June 23, 2004 As you know......in skydiving certainly....."what ifs" always turn into reality at some time......always Murphys Law as well.....if it can happen, it will, and always at the worst possible time..... Never discount the "what ifs".... or sooner or later they'll sneak up and bite you on the arse!!!!!......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #17 June 24, 2004 QuoteNever discount the "what ifs".... or sooner or later they'll sneak up and bite you on the arse!!!!!...... As AFF jumps are usually one of the last groups out I typically tell the students to look for our canopies and what direction we are going. The radio is only a back up. Two weeks ago I happend to witness a long spot and watch the student fly away from the DZ while his instructors flew towards it. (I was on the load before and asked which frequency they were on to minimize any concerns.) The student did not turn towards the DZ so I grabbed a spare radio, changed to their frequency and got the student pointed in the right direction. As soon as they were on track the instructor with the radio had just landed and resumed the remainder of the contact. Their student was able to land in a clear area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GroundZero 0 #18 June 24, 2004 I always carry the radio and use it under canopy... (I think I can talk and avoid other canopies, AFF is near last out, meaning sometimes long... away from most other traffic and usually open a bit higher.) I've seen winds pick up to make that seemed to be perfect spot suck and I could start driving the student to the best out instantly. Too many reasons not to have one... Cypres fire for me... I'll deal with it and talk to Helmut. Students use receivers only, should not be a problem. Just makes more sense to have a radio (or another radio) closer to the student. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #19 June 24, 2004 It's my radio anyway, so back up or not, I have it, and won't hesitate to use it if I feel it's warranted. Note that I said "if it's warranted*** I take it Larry will not be radio'n the students anymore? Why not have him standing by on the ground and use the radio if needed till you get down? Congrats again on the rating DaveIs Larry totally phasing out static line and IAD? didja pack yer rig yet? I left ya a congratulatory note See ya friday RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #20 June 24, 2004 QuoteI take it Larry will not be radio'n the students anymore? Why not have him standing by on the ground and use the radio if needed till you get down? Congrats again on the rating DaveIs Larry totally phasing out static line and IAD? didja pack yer rig yet? I left ya a congratulatory note See ya friday Thanks for the fucking mess you made of my risers/steering lines ya prick! I left it unpacked to review the components with Rene in her FJC and I packed it up immediately thereafter (Tuesday night). Anyhow, we're gonna keep IAD but it looks like we're phasing out static line. We might keep that monster rig we used for Bill's brother, but I don't know if we'll use it enough for any of us to keep our rating current. As for the radio's, we've got three. We'll probably still have Larry carry one on the ground at least as a backup, and maybe in the way you're mentioning (he's the man till the instructor lands). The way we've been doing it has always worked because the students were only on the radio during their low altitude (S/L, IAD, and maybe H&P) jumps, where there's less chance of a bad spot. Last out from 10,500 or 13,000 with a wind shift like we had on Sara's hundredth provides a decent rationale for the instructor to at least carry a radio and be prepared to use it at the earliest possible opportunity. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #21 June 24, 2004 Just curious.. why did you quote me in your reply to livendive?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #22 June 24, 2004 actually, it was very late, and I thought dave had originated the comment, sorry RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites webracer 0 #23 June 24, 2004 I only talk under canopy to tell them to turn around or head toward the airport (if we're far out). It is difficult for them to hear anyway because of the wind under canopy. I rarely use the radio under canopy.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites buzzfink 5 #24 June 25, 2004 Quote Never thought it was a good idea for the J/M to carry the radio on him to use under canopy......what if he has a mal......the student will not get the instruction they need........ For level 1, 2 & 3 students, our JM's always carried a radio. The reason: if an error on the spot is made or if the winds pick up all of a sudden and the JM can't make it back, he can still "assist" the student. The radio is carried inside his jumpsuit and is attached to the chest strap. Never had one come out yet or interfere with the JM's ability to do their job. I agree the radio should not be used under canopy "except" for the need to turn around a student flying away from the DZ (rarely). As for the cypres fire from the radio issue, we have done radio checks in the plane prior to exit with the cypress equipped rigs for the last 9 years. I have never had a cypres fire from it. I know it has happened before on rare occassions but it is most definitely the exception. Blue Skies! Buzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sneaky 0 #25 June 25, 2004 congrats dude........ depending on a number of factors but sometimes I say a quick Nice skydive and remind them to think and be aware under canopy.... and tell them I´ll speak to them on the ground......... But as I see in this thread a difference in personal modus operandi ... for sure you need to take care.... well done and I hope you give the best to youre students... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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obelixtim 100 #15 June 23, 2004 My radios are easily able to be heard at 5 miles on the ground.... in line of sight....much further..... The student can transmit but I tell them not to do so unless they land off the dz and have a problem or need directions to the pickup truck........... Good quality radios are essential, and expensive, but worth their weight in gold.......one of the better investments you can make.......but you must have a quality well trained radio man on the end of it..........not just any old Joe who comes along..... Pilots in aircraft don't make good air traffic controllers, especially with lots of air traffic around....... Its a good idea to carry a backup with you though, a good communication system never caused a problem......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #16 June 23, 2004 As you know......in skydiving certainly....."what ifs" always turn into reality at some time......always Murphys Law as well.....if it can happen, it will, and always at the worst possible time..... Never discount the "what ifs".... or sooner or later they'll sneak up and bite you on the arse!!!!!......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #17 June 24, 2004 QuoteNever discount the "what ifs".... or sooner or later they'll sneak up and bite you on the arse!!!!!...... As AFF jumps are usually one of the last groups out I typically tell the students to look for our canopies and what direction we are going. The radio is only a back up. Two weeks ago I happend to witness a long spot and watch the student fly away from the DZ while his instructors flew towards it. (I was on the load before and asked which frequency they were on to minimize any concerns.) The student did not turn towards the DZ so I grabbed a spare radio, changed to their frequency and got the student pointed in the right direction. As soon as they were on track the instructor with the radio had just landed and resumed the remainder of the contact. Their student was able to land in a clear area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #18 June 24, 2004 I always carry the radio and use it under canopy... (I think I can talk and avoid other canopies, AFF is near last out, meaning sometimes long... away from most other traffic and usually open a bit higher.) I've seen winds pick up to make that seemed to be perfect spot suck and I could start driving the student to the best out instantly. Too many reasons not to have one... Cypres fire for me... I'll deal with it and talk to Helmut. Students use receivers only, should not be a problem. Just makes more sense to have a radio (or another radio) closer to the student. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #19 June 24, 2004 It's my radio anyway, so back up or not, I have it, and won't hesitate to use it if I feel it's warranted. Note that I said "if it's warranted*** I take it Larry will not be radio'n the students anymore? Why not have him standing by on the ground and use the radio if needed till you get down? Congrats again on the rating DaveIs Larry totally phasing out static line and IAD? didja pack yer rig yet? I left ya a congratulatory note See ya friday RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 June 24, 2004 QuoteI take it Larry will not be radio'n the students anymore? Why not have him standing by on the ground and use the radio if needed till you get down? Congrats again on the rating DaveIs Larry totally phasing out static line and IAD? didja pack yer rig yet? I left ya a congratulatory note See ya friday Thanks for the fucking mess you made of my risers/steering lines ya prick! I left it unpacked to review the components with Rene in her FJC and I packed it up immediately thereafter (Tuesday night). Anyhow, we're gonna keep IAD but it looks like we're phasing out static line. We might keep that monster rig we used for Bill's brother, but I don't know if we'll use it enough for any of us to keep our rating current. As for the radio's, we've got three. We'll probably still have Larry carry one on the ground at least as a backup, and maybe in the way you're mentioning (he's the man till the instructor lands). The way we've been doing it has always worked because the students were only on the radio during their low altitude (S/L, IAD, and maybe H&P) jumps, where there's less chance of a bad spot. Last out from 10,500 or 13,000 with a wind shift like we had on Sara's hundredth provides a decent rationale for the instructor to at least carry a radio and be prepared to use it at the earliest possible opportunity. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #21 June 24, 2004 Just curious.. why did you quote me in your reply to livendive?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #22 June 24, 2004 actually, it was very late, and I thought dave had originated the comment, sorry RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #23 June 24, 2004 I only talk under canopy to tell them to turn around or head toward the airport (if we're far out). It is difficult for them to hear anyway because of the wind under canopy. I rarely use the radio under canopy.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buzzfink 5 #24 June 25, 2004 Quote Never thought it was a good idea for the J/M to carry the radio on him to use under canopy......what if he has a mal......the student will not get the instruction they need........ For level 1, 2 & 3 students, our JM's always carried a radio. The reason: if an error on the spot is made or if the winds pick up all of a sudden and the JM can't make it back, he can still "assist" the student. The radio is carried inside his jumpsuit and is attached to the chest strap. Never had one come out yet or interfere with the JM's ability to do their job. I agree the radio should not be used under canopy "except" for the need to turn around a student flying away from the DZ (rarely). As for the cypres fire from the radio issue, we have done radio checks in the plane prior to exit with the cypress equipped rigs for the last 9 years. I have never had a cypres fire from it. I know it has happened before on rare occassions but it is most definitely the exception. Blue Skies! Buzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #25 June 25, 2004 congrats dude........ depending on a number of factors but sometimes I say a quick Nice skydive and remind them to think and be aware under canopy.... and tell them I´ll speak to them on the ground......... But as I see in this thread a difference in personal modus operandi ... for sure you need to take care.... well done and I hope you give the best to youre students... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
