DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

nice accounts by all.

The BobBurnham account is interesting.

Be nice if Bob could say whether the lines were daisy chained when they stuffed the sewn canopy back in the container, during training..i.e. did the students open the container with daisy-chained lines inside (with the sewn canopy stuffed in there too) or were the lines randomly stuffed in? (what a mess if so)

the lines were definitely not re-packed using a pegboard or something? was that how reserves were normally packed to get the lines neat (and maybe rubber bands?)

Edited August 23, 2021 by snowmman

[dudeman17 270]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Let me game this out.. what if...

 

The back chutes had rigger seals..

I assume the good front chute did as well but haven't seen confirmation.

What if Cooper checked the cards and seals to ensure no beepers. The dummy with no card/seal gets tossed. Why else would he toss or take the dummy.

Any reserve or bailout rig (which IS a reserve) is required to be packed by a rigger and thus has a seal and a card. Sport mains do not.

One thing I have wondered is, when they ask Emrich for the reserves but not the mains, he has to wonder where they're getting the mains from. If they tell him 'oh, from some pilot', then he knows they are bailout rigs and do not have the D-rings for the reserves. That could be why he gives the dummy, because he knows it can't be used anyway. If he points this out (or if he asks in the first place) he may be volunteering two more of his rigs that he'll never see again, so maybe he just keeps his mouth shut. (This kind of depends on whether Cossey's story of supplying back chutes is true, and if Emrich knew about it.)

It has been speculated that Cooper used the dummy reserve container to hold some of the money. Or he may have seen it was a dummy and it pissed him off so he pitched it out.

 

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Maybe, Emrich picked out that chute for the FBI to put in a beeper undetected..

Like most of this case, anything is possible.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by dudeman17

[dudeman17 270]

1 hour ago, snowmman said:

The BobBurnham account is interesting.

Be nice if Bob could say whether the lines were daisy chained when they stuffed the sewn canopy back in the container, during training..

I don't do any social media, so I don't have facebook, but there's an old school skydiver's page on there where he or someone like him might be found. NickyB knows where that's at.

 

1 hour ago, snowmman said:

the lines were definitely not re-packed using a pegboard or something? was that how reserves were normally packed to get the lines neat (and maybe rubber bands?)

In normal use the lines were stowed in rubber bands. In those front reserves they were usually in the base of the container. Those bands can be seen in the Tom Kaye pictures of the reserve in FBI evidence. Sometimes a deployment device known as a diaper was on the bottom of the skirt of the canopy, and the lines would be stowed on that. That would sequence the opening a bit, reducing the possibility of some types of malfunction, but would take a bit longer to open.

[FLYJACK 654]

Cooper would need a reason to pitch it out..

dudeman17,

What do you make if this statement from Cossey, he later told Carr the back chutes came from his house.

He claimed his back chutes were picked up from Issaquah with the reserves, not. But, he refers to a B-4 freefall Sport rig as the one left behind,, that doesn't match the one that was returned to Hayden SN 226. 

"The evening of the hijacking, Cossey received another call from authorities after the jet landed in Reno, and he then learned what happened to his gear. Cossey explains, “The skydiver staying at the loft had grabbed two of my personal backpacks and two chest packs from the drop zone. One was my B-4 sport rig and the other was my Pioneer NB-8, a Navy emergency chute used for pilots.” Over the phone, Cossey learned that Cooper took his NB-8 pilot emergency backpack and that his freefall rig remained in the aircraft."

 

I think Cossey got the back chutes wrong... and the FBI has been looking for the wrong Cooper chute.

Edited August 23, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 270]

I don't know what to make of Cossey's statements because there's no way to tell if they're true or accurate. But if they are...

A sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. So if Cooper knew what he was looking at, he might have been better off to take the sport rig and the good reserve. However, the money was bulky, so maybe he didn't have room for both the good reserve and the money. So maybe he figured that the bailout rig, being rigger packed, was more reliable for opening. But for choice of landing area, he's better off with a steerable canopy. But maybe he doesn't know that the reserve is non-steerable. But, but, but...

 

I don't know, but I have a hard time imagining that the FBI would give back anything that was actually used in the case. That Hayden got his rig back kind of supports the idea that there were more chutes and that one was not given to Cooper. I dunno. Look at how they deal with the Amboy chute, they claim it wasn't used but they won't let anyone see it. They kept the front reserve. Like I said, I dunno, but I would expect them to keep anything left on the plane.

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

I don't know what to make of Cossey's statements because there's no way to tell if they're true or accurate. But if they are...

A sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. So if Cooper knew what he was looking at, he might have been better off to take the sport rig and the good reserve. However, the money was bulky, so maybe he didn't have room for both the good reserve and the money. So maybe he figured that the bailout rig, being rigger packed, was more reliable for opening. But for choice of landing area, he's better off with a steerable canopy. But maybe he doesn't know that the reserve is non-steerable. But, but, but...

 

I don't know, but I have a hard time imagining that the FBI would give back anything that was actually used in the case. That Hayden got his rig back kind of supports the idea that there were more chutes and that one was not given to Cooper. I dunno. Look at how they deal with the Amboy chute, they claim it wasn't used but they won't let anyone see it. They kept the front reserve. Like I said, I dunno, but I would expect them to keep anything left on the plane.

Cossey's story about the back chutes shifted...

but what about Cossey's description of the chute left, a B-4 Sport rig, his freefall rig...

does that match the chute Hayden got back..

images and packing card at Bruce's site..

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

Edited August 23, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 270]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

but what about Cossey's description of the chute left, a B-4 Sport rig, his freefall rig...

does that match the chute Hayden got back..

No it doesn't. To the casual observer, they may look similar, but they're not. Depending on the canopy inside, it might be bulkier. And the color? And it would have the D-rings, but those might not be readily apparent to someone who doesn't know them. And it doesn't have a seal or packing card.

[snowmman 3]

The FBI kept Hayden's rig

If Cossey's rigs were on the plane, how come he never complained about not getting back one, like Hayden complained.

Cossey never talked about getting back a rig did he.

And the FBI files do have memos about returning a rig to Hayden right? There was redaction, but I thought there was enough to show that Hayden got a rig back. I guess also the statement by Hayden saying they gave it to him in a parking lot.

But nothing similar from Cossey.

[snowmman 3]

No one would want the front reserve that was left behind. The lines were cut.

it was obviously damaged (and lower value (old military) than a back rig. Especially lower value than a true skydiving back rig?

[dudeman17 270]

I think Cossey did say that he got a rig back, but like most of what he said, it's hard to know if that's true.

Hayden definitely did get a rig returned from the FBI, but there is a possibility that it was not the rig left on the plane. If the FBI got (back) rigs from both Cossey and Hayden, then we wouldn't know which two they gave to Cooper. The rig Hayden got returned may never have been given to Cooper. See some of Flyjack's recent posts for theories on that (according to the serial numbers).

Some of this may be solved if and when the Museum lets Shutter's rigger examine Hayden's rig and he collects serial numbers off of every component, including the pilot chute and bridle.

 

5 hours ago, snowmman said:

No one would want the front reserve that was left behind. The lines were cut.

it was obviously damaged

Hell, that could have become Emrich's next dummy training reserve!

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by dudeman17

[FLYJACK 654]

Cossey claimed in a newspaper report the chute left behind was returned to him. It wasn't.

He also made an NB6/8 replica of the chute he claimed was his, the one Cooper took.

 

The first report of the chute taken by Cooper was olive drab container and tan cotton harness.

When Cossey was interviewed 11/26 he claimed it was NB6 sage green nylon container/sage green nylon harness.

 

Remember, Cossey said Cooper took the inferior chute. If Cossey got the chutes wrong then Cooper didn't.

Chute SN 226 forwarded from Reno 11/24, the one returned to Hayden... it must have been the one left on the plane.. If Cossey got this one wrong he got the other chute wrong.

Edited August 23, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

On 6/6/2021 at 9:50 AM, FLYJACK said:

Ulis keeps claiming the SeaFirst bank bag was size H... making stuff up again..

This is a vintage SeaFirst large bag..  29.5 x 19.5,, bigger than H.

There is no evidence that the bank bag was too small to tie.

 

Ulis just admitted he had the bank bag too small,,, he previously claimed 28 x 14..  392 sq"

I previously posted this vintage SeaFirst bag Size approx 29.5” X 19.5”... (31 x 19) = 589 sq"

 

But he still claims Cooper could NOT tie the bag closed...  even with a bank bag 30% larger.

[snowmman 3]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Cossey claimed in a newspaper report the chute left behind was returned to him. It wasn't.

He also made an NB6/8 replica of the chute he claimed was his, the one Cooper took.

 

The first report of the chute taken by Cooper was olive drab container and tan cotton harness.

When Cossey was interviewed 11/26 he claimed it was NB6 sage green nylon container/sage green nylon harness.

 

Remember, Cossey said Cooper took the inferior chute. If Cossey got the chutes wrong then Cooper didn't.

Chute SN 226 forwarded from Reno 11/24, the one returned to Hayden... it must have been the one left on the plane.. If Cossey got this one wrong he got the other chute wrong.

interesting that claim by Cossey of having the chute returned to him, is probably the most bald-faced lie by Cossey, as opposed to possible misunderstanding or fibbing to cover up prior misstatements.

on the whole, it's unclear what Cossey was doing with all his incorrect statements.

[snowmman 3]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Ulis just admitted he had the bank bag too small,,, he previously claimed 28 x 14..  392 sq"

I previously posted this vintage SeaFirst bag Size approx 29.5” X 19.5”... (31 x 19) = 589 sq"

 

But he still claims Cooper could NOT tie the bag closed...  even with a bank bag 30% larger.

 

yeah that's the problem with starting with an answer, and looking for facts to validate that answer.

I figure, the bag was big enough to get the money to cooper. Cooper did his best to make sure no money fell out. Did any fall out? No way to prove it, one way or another.

[snowmman 3]

Skyjack:

A note for completeness sake. Your list of descriptions of the dummy reserve included statements from (2) skydivers without first hand knowledge. I do agree it's good to keep all descriptions in the timeline.

But, you left out one important description in the timeline. Sheridan's July 2007 Smokejumper magazine description. Sheridan had firsthand knowledge of jumping at Issaquah in the '60s. So anything he says should be added to the collection of information that may or may not be accurate. There's no reason to exclude Sheridan's description. I'm assuming you're in agreement that Sheridan jumped at Issaquah DZ in the '60s. That seems settled fact.

In the July 2007 Smokejumper magazine article he wrote, Sheridan only mentions daisy-chained lines. He doesn't mention any marking on the reserve (based on his knowledge from Issaqah)
https://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf pages 11-13

But then in 2016 when he comments on an amazon review of "D.B. Cooper: Case Closed? Season 1" as eagleeyepete, he mentions a red X.

https://www.amazon.com/D-B-Cooper-Case-Closed-Season/dp/B01LTHZEOE

His review of the show: (he mentions "red X painted" and daisy chaining the lines.

Until someone with Issaquah knowledge from the '60s has something to counter this with, I'm not sure why Tosaw or the other descriptions are more accurate.

I think it's interesting to understand whether the lines were daisy-chained, as it might explain why Cooper didn't open that reserve when trying to get line for the money bag

Says Sheridan in his review: (eagleeyepete)

It was outstanding, especially the part featuring me. I especially like the camera shots of my flat. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have made that dig about Smokejumpers not being skydivers. It was a generalization and obviously not true. There are so many mitigating circumstances that link me to D. B. Cooper. For one thing I earned my skydiving instructor's license at the Issaqua Sky Port where D. B. got his four rigs. I recognized the reserve with the red X painted across it which D. B. jumped with. I used it countless times to show students how to deploy the chute in ordered that it didn't tangle with the main. I had daisy chain the shroud lines. I would like to have seen the expression on his face, when or if he'd deployed it. Secondly I was a tech writer at Boeing and many people figured I knew all about the the 737 which I did not. I was actually an editor removing gobbledygook from the engineers documents so they were easier to read. President and safety officer of the Saigon Sport Parachute Club, I left Vietnam August, 1970 for Nepal. My son Sheridan Junior was born in Kathmandu and on Halloween night 1972 my daughter was born in Pokhara, Nepal. D. B. made the Heist in 1971 so of course I could not have been D. B. Nevertheless, F.B.I. agents went to Pokhara and spoke with the missionary doctor who supervised the delivery of my daughter, Ginger.

Edited August 24, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, snowmman said:

Skyjack:

A note for completeness sake. Your list of descriptions of the dummy reserve included statements from (2) skydivers without first hand knowledge. I do agree it's good to keep all descriptions in the timeline.

But, you left out one important description in the timeline. Sheridan's July 2007 Smokejumper magazine description. Sheridan had firsthand knowledge of jumping at Issaquah in the '60s. So anything he says should be added to the collection of information that may or may not be accurate. There's no reason to exclude Sheridan's description. I'm assuming you're in agreement that Sheridan jumped at Issaquah DZ in the '60s. That seems settled fact.

In the July 2007 Smokejumper magazine article he wrote, Sheridan only mentions daisy-chained lines. He doesn't mention any marking on the reserve (based on his knowledge from Issaqah)
https://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/056_Smokejumper_Issue_056_July_2007.pdf pages 11-13

But then in 2016 when he comments on an amazon review of "D.B. Cooper: Case Closed? Season 1" as eagleeyepete, he mentions a red X.

https://www.amazon.com/D-B-Cooper-Case-Closed-Season/dp/B01LTHZEOE

His review of the show: (he mentions "red X painted" and daisy chaining the lines.

Until someone with Issaquah knowledge from the '60s has something to counter this with, I'm not sure why Tosaw or the other descriptions are more accurate.

I think it's interesting to understand whether the lines were daisy-chained, as it might explain why Cooper didn't open that reserve when trying to get line for the money bag

Says Sheridan in his review: (eagleeyepete)

It was outstanding, especially the part featuring me. I especially like the camera shots of my flat. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have made that dig about Smokejumpers not being skydivers. It was a generalization and obviously not true. There are so many mitigating circumstances that link me to D. B. Cooper. For one thing I earned my skydiving instructor's license at the Issaqua Sky Port where D. B. got his four rigs. I recognized the reserve with the red X painted across it which D. B. jumped with. I used it countless times to show students how to deploy the chute in ordered that it didn't tangle with the main. I had daisy chain the shroud lines. I would like to have seen the expression on his face, when or if he'd deployed it. Secondly I was a tech writer at Boeing and many people figured I knew all about the the 737 which I did not. I was actually an editor removing gobbledygook from the engineers documents so they were easier to read. President and safety officer of the Saigon Sport Parachute Club, I left Vietnam August, 1970 for Nepal. My son Sheridan Junior was born in Kathmandu and on Halloween night 1972 my daughter was born in Pokhara, Nepal. D. B. made the Heist in 1971 so of course I could not have been D. B. Nevertheless, F.B.I. agents went to Pokhara and spoke with the missionary doctor who supervised the delivery of my daughter, Ginger.

It is FLYJACK.. Skyjack was the book..

 

I didn't leave out Sheridan... I have read those accounts and don't believe the chutes are the same one.

Sheridan claimed on July 17, 2016 it had a "red X" and he made that comment after the "red X" was on DZ.. In 2007 when he left it out the the "red X" was not public yet.

Sheridan may have added the "red X" after reading it, an embellishment.

There is no evidence the Cooper dummy chute was daisy chained.

Also, Cossey claimed he had made it which would have been years later. 

FBI file part 11 p 53

"This chest pack was devised by COSSEY to teach trainees hung in a harness how to open the chest pack in the event of an emergency. The folds of the parachute are sewn together to preclude the parachute opening in the training room."

 

Sheridan likely daisy chained a dummy chute in the 60's but there is no evidence it is the Cooper chute.

He is probably referring to a completely different dummy chute.

 

Apparently this is Issaquah in 1985, years later, but the students are in a practice harness.. at 1:15

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

Well, there is no real "evidence" about the dummy reserve.

it's all just random statements from a variety of people.

there's nothing in the fbi files.

So if you want to discount Sheridan's statements for some reason, that's fine. 

All I'm saying, is that you seem predisposed to certain statements and not others.

I honestly can't tell what you think on the question of dummy reserve.

Do you believe there is a black x and the lines were not daisy chained?

why would you believe that, compared to anything else? Better to just say "can't tell" ??
 

Edited August 24, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

24 minutes ago, snowmman said:

Well, there is no real "evidence" about the dummy reserve.

it's all just random statements from a variety of people.

there's nothing in the fbi files.

So if you want to discount Sheridan's statements for some reason, that's fine. 

All I'm saying, is that you seem predisposed to certain statements and not others.

I honestly can't tell what you think on the question of reserve container.

Do you believe there is a black x and the lines were not daisy chained?

why would you believe that, compared to anything else? Better to just say "can't tell" ??

I believe the information supports a black X and that Cossey made it not Sheridan.

Granted there is no complete direct evidence but that is common in this case.. I analyze the information as I know and understand it, take account of context and apply logic, reason, experience and history. That is the best I can do... you have to form "near facts" to advance. If there is more added info then I can re-assess. So far..

I do not believe the dummy chute Sheridan is referring to is the Cooper chute. The only support for it is an assumption by Sheridan 50 years later.

Edited August 24, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

ok that's good for the status quo.

 

it does raise the question of whether they only had one dummy chute at Issaquah. 

I would have thought for multiple students you might have more than one.

That's why I'm surprised there's no picture, like Emrich showing a marked one the next day to reporters saying "it was like this"

Did they make a new dummy chute after that lost that one? Or had they stopped using it long ago, so no need to replace? Hold old was the one Cossey had made? When had he made it?

The whole story about dummy chute is looser than the story of the main rigs. 
It would seem "someone" would have a picture of a dummy reserve, if they were used a lot for training, before or after 1971. 

Be interesting if there were multiple dummy reserves, each marked different ways. But that would make less sense.
 

EDIT: I never thought for a second that Sheridan was involved in "making" the dummy reserve. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but nothing I read implied that to me.

Edited August 24, 2021 by snowmman

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, snowmman said:

ok that's good for the status quo.

 

it does raise the question of whether they only had one dummy chute at Issaquah. 

I would have thought for multiple students you might have more than one.

That's why I'm surprised there's no picture, like Emrich showing a marked one the next day to reporters saying "it was like this"

Did they make a new dummy chute after that lost that one? Or had they stopped using it long ago, so no need to replace? Hold old was the one Cossey had made? When had he made it?

The whole story about dummy chute is looser than the story of the main rigs. 
It would seem "someone" would have a picture of a dummy reserve, if they were used a lot for training, before or after 1971. 

Be interesting if there were multiple dummy reserves, each marked different ways. But that would make less sense.
 

EDIT: I never thought for a second that Sheridan was involved in "making" the dummy reserve. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but nothing I read implied that to me.

Sheridan claimed he daisy chained the shroud lines on the dummy chute.

[snowmman 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Sheridan claimed he daisy chained the shroud lines on the dummy chute.

I don't believe Sheridan claimed he daisy chained the lines on the dummy chute.

He said that when they used it at Issaquah (which would have been early '60s) he did that when he trained students.

He didn't say anything about the dummy reserve in '71.

[FLYJACK 654]

41 minutes ago, snowmman said:

I don't believe Sheridan claimed he daisy chained the lines on the dummy chute.

He said that when they used it at Issaquah (which would have been early '60s) he did that when he trained students.

He didn't say anything about the dummy reserve in '71.

"I had daisy chain the shroud lines." Sheridan Peterson referring to the chute in the 60's but he also believed it was the Cooper dummy chute...

That implies he made the 60's dummy chute he used...  Cossey reported he made the Cooper dummy chute many years later...

These are not the same dummy chutes though Sheridan assumed they were.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

on the titanium...

The pieces were CP titanium or commercially pure titanium not an alloy..

This is very important as titanium alloys can be found in many applications.

CP Titanium was used in places like electronics, dentistry and even for ducts, water systems, blades mounts, seal repair kits, firewall etc. on the Boeing 727. It is possible some of the particles may have been picked up in the plane.

To definitively track them down is impossible.

One was a cp titanium nano rod or piece of micromesh.. perhaps some type of filter screen or wire.

 

The other one had a piece of SS mechanically mashed into it. The 727 has CP Ti and SS valves near the lav.

Edited August 24, 2021 by FLYJACK

[snowmman 3]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

"I had daisy chain the shroud lines." Sheridan Peterson referring to the chute in the 60's but he also believed it was the Cooper dummy chute...

That implies he made the 60's dummy chute he used...  Cossey reported he made the Cooper dummy chute many years later...

These are not the same dummy chutes though Sheridan assumed they were.

 

How do you know when Cossey made the dummy reserve, or how many existed? 

[dudeman17 270]

18 hours ago, snowmman said:

I think it's interesting to understand whether the lines were daisy-chained, as it might explain why Cooper didn't open that reserve when trying to get line for the money bag

 

I think you're conflating whether the lines were daisy chained with whether Cooper may have known it.

In any case, daisy chains are not permanent. They are easy to do and undo. It would not be a reason for Cooper to avoid getting lines from it. It would also not require the person daisy chaining them to be the one who made the dummy.

How many dummy reserves they had would depend on how many students they typically trained at a time, and whether they exclusively used a hanging harness or just practiced standing on the ground.

 

Interesting video, Flyjack.