DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman I don't have a model. What I do have is years of experience.What I took into consideration on my decision is the conditions at the time of the Jump. Weather, the way he was dressed, his inexperience involving the way he prepaired for the jump. and the area he landed in. Not even I could have survived that jump. I know of no one that could have. So lets see if we can find some fool with very little experience strap on a chute he is unfamiliar with and not user friendly. and no boots dressed in a suit with 25lbs straped to him at night with no none drop zone. Except a known dense forest during a storm and see if he survive's. Orange 1 do you know of a candidate for this jump How about you slugo. Jerry

Ok.
And why did the other's survive? They had opposite answers to all the above you listed?

Somehow I'm reminded of the North Vietnamese spec ops wearing loincloths crawling thru the only open space in the wire to attach SOG hq successfully: the latrine pit...while the officers felt confident their model of the world was right.

[skyjack71 0]

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This is just another mental exercise.
I attached an (almost) side profile of Hahneman from when he was brought to the US. (not too long after hijack, I think it was a couple months)

You can see the severely sloping forehead, which is not obvious in the sketch or forward photo. Can see he's a little short? And his nose looks bigger/different from the side.

These are very same problems I have with the Cooper sketch. I never heard of this guy, because I have tunnel vision when it comes to Cooper.

Duane's forehead also slanted and I tried to explain this visual effect with the composites. Seems like they did NOT have very good composite artist in those days...at least the guy who tried to sketch Cooper shadowed the forehead trying to indicate the slant. The other thing the Cooper artist put in - the lines coming down from the mid lower cheek - again rather obscured in the composite, but there.

Also note that the composite of the suspect they apprehended - they got the hair line wrong because of that slanted forehead.

The average JOE out here looking at the composite would have to know this - most individuals looking at a composite do not understand the things they are looking at are different at different angles.

With the composite of Cooper the public was looking for a Ben Gazzara with a lower forehead... and if you use the first composite they were looking for a Bing Crosby look-alike.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman said he'd do it for $1500 a day as I recall.

offer still stands. I made a couple of offers.

Cooper didn't have snow.

I'll do anything you want in snow for another $750 a day.

[377 21]

But remember to run fingerprint comparisons/checks on Snow right before he boards the 727. It would be just like him to "subcontract" the jump to some poor Slovenian guy looking for work while he jetted to Iceland to watch it all on a big screen with Dagbjört, Snædís and Brynja.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

377, on hypothermia, said "Snow had a lot to say about this but I have forgotten what his conclusions were. I think he disagreed strongly with Jerry. "

Don't need opinions.
I posted the stats on hypothermia leading to death.
Now you can argue the stats aren't higher because people are smart.
Maybe.

Remember we're talking Nov 25, 1971 in WA.
With a jumper landing probably between Vancouver and south of all the woods. What's the problem again?

Oh yeah, you have to rig the flight path to jump into Jerry's death woods.

Well if you jumped into Death Valley in the summer, there would be hell to pay also. That would be far, far worse.

(edit) Now if you're arguing Cooper jumped in the woods (like where the FBI said) and died..Oh sure maybe. Now if you're saying I couldn't jump in the woods there and survive..yeah that's different, and sure, part of the offer.

I guess I have no idea what Jerry is really saying. I thought mostly "I know. You don't" ??

(edit) If the "bet" is: Jump in the FBI predicted DZ and survive, well hell, you're betting I can't find Lake Merwin?

[skyjack71 0]

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I got is a new picture of Hahneman.
From Ebony magazine, Nov, 1972.

Gossett, Hahneman, Weber - There seems to be a common thread - we will call the Hijacker Syndrome. Do a line up with all of these guys - (actual and composites) what do you see. I am seeing some resemblances - but, everyone resembles someone else. Even the ears in the Hahneman sketch are not as large as his actual photo. His forehead is higher because of the slant in real life. They certainly did not have the tools available in 1970's they have now for composites.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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I got is a new picture of Hahneman.
From Ebony magazine, Nov, 1972.

Gossett, Hahneman, Weber - There seems to be a common thread - we will call the Hijacker Syndrome. Do a line up with all of these guys - (actual and composites) what do you see. I am seeing some resemblances - but, everyone resembles someone else. Even the ears in the Hahneman sketch are not as large as his actual photo. His forehead is higher and in real life. They certainly did not have the tools available in 1970's they have now for composites.

Yes. I guess it was kind of lucky they were able to get a drawing of Duane that matched him so well.

[snowmman 3]

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How about getting Hollywood to sponsor your Cooper survival jump Snow? We'd equip you with radio and emergency beacon gear so that you could be found if conditions got too tough. Geraldo Rivera would be the perfect host for this TV special.

377

it's already been done for TV

Bear Grylls, Costa Rica jungle parachute jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L7YA322rvE

He did a similar thing up in Canada? Yukon?. Parachute in, ...a couple days to get out.

Hey did you guys know Bear Grylls had a parachute accident in 1996, in Kenya. Broke his back in 3 places.

I'm sure Jerry is going to spout about how Bear Grylls is a fake. While it is just TV, and he's got support, and some stuff is sort of faked, he's got a lot of balls.

Jerry: how's your personal training philosophy compared to Bear's
http://www.beargrylls.com/health.html

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman we have discussed this before.The area in which he landed and the weather, conditions that night. made his survival slim to none.The way he was dressed made it none.Once again I wish to invite you up to this area. in late november or how about this week.I'll be glad to take you up to the area, he would have landed in at night.we'll take your shoes off. Ill leave you in the woods next to a stream at 9 Pm at night. and let you find your way back.And yes there will be snow on the ground. How ever I'll have to blind fold you when I take you in, just, so you will know ,what it is like to have landed in a area you knew nothing about.You won't be able to see anything, because it will be so dark you can't even see your hand in front of your face and the closest road will be some where to your left or right or infront of you or behind you or just over that cliff you can't see. Catch my drift. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

Jerry, where did Cooper land again? I forgot.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman in your back yard don't you remember You and Matter was discussing the ghost light. When he landed.(Cars)So how about it you up to a trip to the washington area.Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman in your back yard don't you remember You and Matter was discussing the ghost light. When he landed.(Cars)So how about it you up to a trip to the washington area.Jerry

I was reading your description of what you considered difficult.
It sounded like it would all happen in one night, since you mentioned dark.

What's the longest number of days you've been lost: i.e. not known where you are? From the way you talk, I'm figuring 3-4?

(edit) p.s. You like to imply I'm pathetic. I am totally reminded of how pathetic I am every time I read or respond to one of your posts. I should just slit my wrists and get it done quickly. Maybe I'm a cutter though and enjoy the slower pain?

(edit) And just to put a point on what a dumbass you are, there's no way you can lead someone blindfolded in dense woods and go very far. It's like, dumb? How far do you think you can take someone blindfolded in the dark? Like a mile? maybe? on a trail?

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

Jerry,

here's two questions for you. Can anyone say 100% confirmed with irrefutable evidence, no doubts not opinion as to what Cooper carried on the plane when he boarded? #2 what did he do in the extended time in the bathroom? did he have a bag of gear in the overhead he carried on? until these are answered you can not say 100% beyond a doubt what Cooper was wearing to survive or that he had loafers on and lost them. till these are 100% beyond a doubt answered you are connesting dots that are presumed not know. The shoes were noted early on when he showed the bomb in the seat. they were not observed when he "was gearing up". did he change into survival gear or jump gear in the bathroom, then dump his suit out the back and drop the tie in the process? This is somthing we can not say cause we do not know and won't know so making comments he had no shoes and was wearing a suit is urban ledgends in my book.

[skyjack71 0]

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Yes. I guess it was kind of lucky they were able to get a drawing of Duane that matched him so well.

I wasn't looking for you to pacifiy me - just making observations.
Remember I used to draw a lot yrs ago - wanted to be a commercial artist in college and my parents would not let me change my major...haven't tried to make any sketches since the 60's. Used to sit in class and draw the instructor or someone else in the class - got caught several times.

Because most people do not "GET" the forehead thing - they would NOT see Duane in that composite. The lines in the cheeks of the Cooper composite as compared to the photo of Gossett is off. Weber does match more of what the artist was trying to portray.

I noted the Hahnehan artist did get the little niche of hair he had - what some might call a widows peak. If you will note early pictures of Duane - his was more prominent then, but by 1971 was only faint. Since Coopers hair was known to be dyed due to the shiny dark
brown color, it may only have been visible up very close. After the 1971 incident - I did not find it in any Weber photos showing this - maybe he kept it tweezed out over and over until it was gone. Pure theory - I didn't meet him until 1977 and it was gone then.

Weber's hair was mostly salt and pepper when I met him and pictures taken after the crime never showed dark hair. Even a photo taken before the crime shows lots of gray. There is ONLY one picture during that time that shows his dyed hair - the one his prior wife sent me dated 1971 and she admitted to having dyed his hair for him.

I think it is significant she sent me that photo, plus one of her hold the glasses with the 2 cars hehind her. At that same time she sent me 2 other photos showing him in 1969 with SALT and PEPPER hair. I have posted both of those - no one noticed. Nor did they notice his physical condition in one of these - very trim and muscular...he was exercising and swimming a lot according to his wife. He was able to cut through the water swiftly - even in the Atlantic in the mid and late 80's. Then in the Gulf after we first moved here - he had a fistula in place for the dialysis, but that did NOT stop him...

The yr I pulled 2 boys out of a rip tide he stopped going to the beach. He felt it should have been him, but he could not move swifly enough on his feet to reach the water in time. He knew I put myself at risk - but I knew I was the ONLY one who could get there in time. The life guard would NOT have made it in time he was too far away. By the time he got there I had got the smaller boy to those watching on the bar and then the larger one - all the while screaming to the on lookers on the bar to grab them. When his hand was grasped only then did I realized was being pulled out to sea and knew I had to go with the flow until I could break away parallel with the sand bar.

The only time in my life I had to be hauled to shore - I was exhausted. I did not stop to think I only reacted and only when I was trying to break out of the rip did I realize I might not make it out...you will never know the relief I felt when I saw the life guard coming toward me with at buoy.

Those darn parent had NO idea what a RIP was when the children could not come back to shore. The life guard explained he could not have reached those children and if he did he would not have been able to retrieve both boys - I was 50 yrs old at the time.

Often the memory of that day pops up and I wonder if those kids knew how close they came to drowning on that day. Without these LONG kangaroo legs and my ability to make long leaps up and out of the water I would not have reached them - every second counted and I could run faster than I could swim...the onlookers had NO idea the kids where in trouble until they saw me running and leaping out of the water - one came over and told me it appeared I was actually leaping on top of the water for a period of time. God had plans for those boys and that is why I was there. I was no hero - I only reacted instinctually.

Opps Off target, but oh what the heck - no more off target than usual. I believe we are all here on this earth for a reason - I just figure it out as I go.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman said:

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Hey did you guys know Bear Grylls had a parachute accident in 1996, in Kenya. Broke his back in 3 places.

Boy! He’s really dumb…

If I broke my back in three places, I wouldn’t jump into those places!


Sha dit Ta boom… I be here all week… don’t forget to tip your waitress.

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NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

1) Betting someone he can lead him somewhere, and that he can get out but the other guy can't. (if someone can get out, someone else can too)

2) Betting that snow makes it more difficult. Example: Fresh snow up to your waist makes travel really hard. But it means that you can't go in very far. Also means you leave an easy track for getting back out. Even if snow is falling, as long you you follow back within 24 hours, the trail is pretty obvious.

3) Only a dumbass would even dream of thinking someone is going to travel at night, when they don't know where they're going. Wait for the sun. You can see, travel with less energy and it's warmer! Always remember its warmer if you make it thru the night. And night rarely means more than 12 hours.

4) Only a dumbass would think he could outwit someone younger and in better shape. Okay, two guys go into the woods at night. They don't know each other. The one guy only told the other older guy his name was snowmman. Assume the older guy has a weapon. The older guy turns to leave. What happens?

What's your resting pulse Jerry? I am totally out of shape. Let's compare though. If you don't think fitness has anything to do with survival, you're a dumbass.

(edit) now for all non-dumbasses, the point is: it's difficult to construct the appropriate challenge, especially if you want to "match" Cooper in some way. But go ahead and keep trying.

People want to emphasize the "not knowing where to go" part. But we can't agree on a starting point! If we agree on a starting point, then we can estimate travel time to humanity. If the belief is that you can't travel barefoot in the woods without dying, then maybe we start with that? Or is it that we don't believe Cooper's raincoat worked? Or that he didn't have it on the ground?

Was Cooper fully naked on the ground? Do we start with that?

[snowmman 3]

I keep getting LaPoint and Heady mixed up.
I left Charles LaPoint, 23 out of my list for Jerry. (got him mixed up with Heady). Farflung can search the posts for LaPoint info.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=LaPoint&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=snowmman&sb=score&mh=25

Didn't LaPoint seem ballsier because he went with a DC-9? Everything said the door was more of a problem (less used) than the 727ers.

LaPoint was the guy with cowboy boots, not Heady. Heady had the pillowcase over his head at Vegas. I've discussed LaPoint before.

LaPoint jumped Jan 20, 1972, about 280 miles NE of Denver.

Now there was snow on the ground but they found him before he had to spend the night. I discussed LaPoint's probable ground temps.

He got a sprained left wrist and ankle on landing.


But definitely: cowboy boots.
(edit) so for SchlitzNGrins: Cooper, Heady, LaPoint, McNally, Hahneman, McCoy. (order not by date)

They all died. Oh wait, none of them died. Except Cooper, supposedly.

(edit) Pilot was Don Burkhard. First Officer Frank McDonald, stewardess Trudi Hunt. Both Burkhard and Hunt were from Seattle.

Two Air Force F111's tailed the DC9. Homing devices in the chutes. They spotted him on the ground pretty easily.

LaPoint asked for $50k in $10 and $20 bills, 3 parachutes and two crash helments.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman. No problem on the leading you into the woods. What will take place is I'll chopper you in then drop you off. Sure snow will make a difference.Now I believe I read a post asking what cooper had on just before he jumped. According to Ralph's conversation with Tina and others he had no other clothes other than what he was wearing when he boarded.The last time he was observed he had not changed clothes or shoe's nor was there anything left on the aircraft to indicate he had changed clothes.Ive asked this question many time's. Maybe what should take place is you should ask these question's to those that were on the aircraft and to the agent's that did the investigation. Like I have. Most reports were compilled and confusing. However conversation's with those actually involved in the case give's a different picture.Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman. No problem on the leading you into the woods. What will take place is I'll chopper you in then drop you off. Sure snow will make a difference.

Okay, you're on. Set a date. Reserve the chopper (you're paying, remember)

You won't, because you're full of shit.

You rent a chopper, I'll be there.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman. No problem on the leading you into the woods. What will take place is I'll chopper you in then drop you off. Sure snow will make a difference.

Okay, you're on. Set a date. Reserve the chopper (you're paying, remember) (I have no idea what helis will fly in winter and what won't? I'm assuming we're talking low elevations?)
Dougan Falls is only 700 ft elevation.

Are we mimicing some Cooper theory, or just trying to see if you can off me?

You won't, because you're full of shit.

You rent a chopper, I'll be there.

(edit) To be fair, the main negative for me is not being in tip-top shape. Although I'm in fair shape so it's not like I'm going to drop dead. Ideally you give me 12 weeks lead time. But if we gotta go now. Okay. I'll cover my airfare to whatever airport you pick. You cover your travel to pick me up. Or I meet you at the helicopter. You pay in advance. I call and check with the pilot to make sure you're on the level.
377 can come if he wants to watch.


(edit) Lake Merwin altitude is only 144 feet.
Do I get any idea where we're going? Where do we meet? What am I allowed to wear/bring? Can I hide stuff on my body? I'm assuming that the "end" is when I post to the forum?
I believe that any superficial injuries I receive don't count as failure? (is death the only failure or ???)

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[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman 30 Dec 09 sound good to you. You forget one thing I do have friend's that own aircraft.And one owns a chopper. Date set sound good. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman 30 Dec 09 sound good to you. You forget one thing I do have friend's that own aircraft.And one owns a chopper. Date set sound good. Jerry

I can do it.
I have two weeks off from work.

Give me a phone number to verify the heli pilot.

I still don't understand the game, or constraints.
Do I get anything, on "winning" ? Or just the free heli ride?

(edit) Actually it's Jan 1 I have to be back at work. We can move it up? Or wait for colder weather? Like I said 12 weeks advance notice would be my preference. Arranging travel before christmas is iffy? plus my kid is home for xmas, so I should stay around?

(edit) if you tell me the heliport, and I call the pilot, I can start to get something about range and distance estimates, and start memorizing maps.

(edit) Let's hear more details about constraints on me and what the detailed win/lose definition is. We can get feedback from others about what's good or bad in terms of an experiment. I just want to show you're a dickhead, so that part won't be hard.
Actually now that I think of it, it's more of a personal motivation: if I can't do something like this, I'm pretty pathetic.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman.Your prize is your survival. Pm your Email to me I'll send you my phone # we'll set up a pick up time at PDX unless your going to drive up. Jerry

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman.Your prize is your survival. Pm your Email to me I'll send you my phone # we'll set up a pick up time at PDX unless your going to drive up. Jerry

I replied too quick about 12/30..see my post. above.

Another date?

(edit) I'm still wondering about clothes. details?

[snowmman 3]

I'm not a heli pilot, but from what I read, they have to land somewhere the rotor blades can clear the trees.

Seems kind of restrictive.

So you have a clearing in mind somewhere dickhead?

Or some new rule?

(edit) I'm really liking this better, as I look on the maps...a lot of the clearings in the predicted areas have dirt roads either there or nearby.

(edit) I don't know what the restrictions are: Can your heli pilot land anywhere? Or is this going to be "if no one says anything, it's cool"