DB Cooper

[georger 197]

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orange1 said:
"I'm sure there were a number of whuffos who thought it was counterculture without knowing any skydivers to prove them wrong"

I've never talked to a jumper. Never saw a jump. My only reading about jumping is from this thread and a couple others here at DZ.com and various web pages I read while researching for Cooper.

So yeah, I may be totally way off base.

Hey on a positive note, I really liked reading these safety articles Jan had written for Sport Parachutist's Safety Journal in the '90s.
http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/index.html
Gave me some more insight into just what all is going on when you're a jumper.

I've always wondered about how you guys interact with technology as a key part of the sport, and how you improve that technology or manage it etc. Like for instance what are the root cause issues, that make you still require reserves? I see you guys root cause events that cause injury and death, but it would seem prudent to be root causing all reserve deployments and treating them as failures just as severely.

It'd be interesting to see the number of reserve deployments per year, and whether that correlates to injuries in any way. From what you guys have said, it probably doesn't, confirming there are human decisions that are causing injuries.

Just as I don't know you guys, you guys can be pretty off base in your understanding of what whuffos think about, when they think about your sport, at least in my case.

(edit) with respect to jumpers' attitudes about discussing Cooper. Yeah, I guess I really don't get why anyone would have any passionate opinion that talk is bad. So, yeah, obviously I'm clueless about that issue.

Theory: Sampson's strength was in his hair. Once
his hair was cut he was a eunuch. Speech is a little
like hair. If you say the wrong thing and get your
hair clipped, well . . .

masculine thing.

[georger 197]

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A friend of mine has tentativley agreed to allow
his corporation's Security Dept to evaluate photos
and renderings of Cooper, Weber, McCoy, Gosset,
or anyone else using their facial and body recognition system, used widely throughout
the USA and the world. A formal report would be
issued at the end of the evaluation, and posted
here.

This sounds interesting. We can churn up information, and I always had thought the process would be that Ckret would do something and give us feedback, but it seems that was naive thinking because of constraints Ckret has to operate under.

Do you think you could do a pass first on existing photos, like those at Sluggo's poll, which has some ringers?

It'd be good to shake out the system and see what you get. Can you run all of sluggo's 9 thru and provide a report?

I guess I'm wondering how much work it is and how many passes your friend would hang in for, and whether the results actually are meaningful.

(edit) I'm thinking about my brag of a collection of lots of '60s-era photos. Even if there's no "suspect" it might be interesting finding a picture that correlates to the sketch..as it might help jostle the memories better..i.e. Cooper could be a guy who looks like this photo...as opposed to "looks like this sketch".

My thoughts are similar to yours. I will make sure
some of Sluggo's photos are in the first bag but
some guidance would help (if Sluggo reads this).
So fire away any wants & suggestions.

I have two weeks before I need to get a lot
out - will send by email. So there is time to work something up. Let's make it a good batch first time out.

My friend was pretty quick to agree to this. Now
if he should get 'personally interested' in this
then this could stretch out - will run one batch
and see how it goes.

The technical details are full and generous and will
satisfy "any" requirement.

Georger

[Orange1 0]

No idea re the US. Ours are reported along with inujuries and fatalities, as well as the reasons for them happening.

Re youtube etc, well as with anything -l ike newspapers - there is a limited audience for things that go nomrally and smoothly. There is for example a video on skydivingmovies.com called "How not to do 4-way" featuring a team called Chasing Amy, which is a favourite among novice 4-way teams, but to the average youtube user i'm not sure it holds nearly as much interest as, eg, the guy who survived a double mal by landing in the bushes.
I don't spend much time on youtube (in fact other than your links, i spend no time there). Are there any of the Golden Knights or Arizona Airspeed videos on there? If so do they get nearly as many hits as the malfunction videos?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 20]

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... i get THIS as a google ad on the sidebar!?
I am inclined to blame Snow and 377

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Married But Looking
Find Married Wives Looking For Fun View Profiles 100% Free. Join Now!
www.LonelyHousewives

Snow and I are blameless, but Georger might not be ;-).

More info on how CIA front air operators messed with registration numbers to conceal the existence of certain aircraft:

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/hayes-c47-autec.htm

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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More info on how CIA front air operators messed with registration numbers to conceal the existence of certain aircraft:

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/hayes-c47-autec.htm

377

I can't remember, did I post the link that included discussion of the B-17 that "everyone knew" Air America had but wasn't in its inventory?

Also that link on Intermountain talks about them basically being able to do what they wanted with all the aircraft parts lying around...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 6]

It'd be interesting to see the number of reserve deployments per year, and whether that correlates to injuries in any way. From what you guys have said, it probably doesn't, confirming there are human decisions that are causing injuries.

Just as I don't know you guys, you guys can be pretty off base in your understanding of what whuffos think about, when they think about your sport, at least in my case.

It's a really dynamic sport Snow...the cause & effect thing is tough to pin down accurately because the attitudes and the gear etc. change around.

We lose a whole lot more people each year 'these days' under open land-able parachutes than you would believe.

When I started jumping it was the gear more often at fault.

A logical outsider such as yourself would simply comment...'then don't do that'...when presented the stats illustrating how it's not the gear but the mind-set & actions, killing & injuring many today.

Curious though since you brought it up~
What was your impression of the sport prior to join us here, what it is now...?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[phildthedildo 0]

the rig appears to be a pioneer 4 pin sport container . the angle of the top edge of the container gives it away. an nb8 or nb6 has sides that wrap around the top and bottom by about 2 inches. the b4 has pretty much a side flap that has an edge cut at a constant angle,BUT a pioneer sport container has a rounded contour to the edge of the side flap.also would have to say(based on the shade of the container and contrast of the p.o.bs) that the container is made of tan canvas with sage green pack opening bands(p.o.b.s)

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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You haven't and won't see a lot of the older guys posting on this thread. You seem to think that because none of the older jumpers answer when you ask "Did anybody jump at xxx time and place?" that there isn't an answer.

Hi wolfriverjoe:
nope. All I think is: Question. No answer. Oh well, no information that way. Move on to the next thought.

A better question you might ask yourself: Why do you think my questions make sense or don't make sense, in probing '60s skydive history?

How do you make a decision? Or do you not think about it really, and just like pointing out my weaknesses?

I really don't get it. How do you jumpers make a decision about whether all possible Coopers in the jump community have been looked at? Is the answer that you just don't think about it?

I understand the philosophy that Cooperites are bottom of the barrel waste-cases. But anyone reading this thread is part of the bottom feeding. So you can't point fingers. You're part of it if you're reading this.

In reverse order:

I'm not pointing fingers, just trying to point out some facts.
Some have the bottom of the barrel philosophy. 377, Airtwardo, are oldtimers who don't. Guru312 didn't, but he has been absent from here for a while (Change of heart?). I've been interested in the case since I was a kid. The detailed information is fascinating to me.

Ckret said all the DZs were checked out as part of the investigation. That doesn't mean all the jumpers were checked out. How likely is it that viable suspects were missed because one jumper didn't want to "snitch" on another?? I still believe Cooper was not an active experienced jumper.

I try to decide whether or not to post by considering the positve vs negative results of posting and keeping my mouth (keyboard) shut. I've deleted a lot of crap after typing it out and previewing it. (Restraint of tounge and pen). And yes, there is stuff I probably should have not posted, oh well.

I reply to you more than others because you post more than anyone else. You have a lot of great information and your searches are amazing, but I don't always agree with your conclusions. That doesn't make me right and you wrong, just a difference of opinion.
Your questions about '60s skydive history only make sense if Cooper was a real skydiver. If he wasn't (as I think), they are an interesting tangent. Highly informative, but not relevant to the mystery.

Last- You have used the lack of answers to your questions as indications that the skydiving community isn't as close-knit as we skydivers claim.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[snowmman 3]

airtwardo said:

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What was your impression of the sport prior to join us here, what it is now...?

That's a good question. Now remember I have no agenda here, I'm just spewing whatever thoughts happen to be in my head.

As a sport, it seems like there's this interesting problem that the main activity is all compressed into a very short span of time...like a minute. So then a lot of the sport has to do with prep etc.

An interesting part of the sport is the story telling. I can tell that everyone values the stories..and you guys sometimes talk about not telling someone else's story. That's cool.

I can see as the sport developed, the problem, like any sport, of "what do we do next" developed. And you've got all this relative work, which puts high demands on trust and teamwork, and that feeds the whole social culture.

So there's the problem of people seemingly enjoying the freedom aspect of skydiving, doing something a little wild, but then there's this conformity problem..Getting people to follow "rules" either for their own good, or the good of the load or the team.

So skydiving is clearly not an individual sport. It's a bit like surfing where everyone's crowded in the same spot trying to catch waves. And turf/attitude wars develop there in much the same way...i.e. "you're supposed to act this way". And there's good reasons for that.

Skydiving is clearly a sport of "man as tool-user". The tools used are pretty advanced at one end (planes). But simpler at the other end (nylon cloth with cords attached).

I muse about whether a failure rate in the technology is part of what keeps people's interest...i.e. if there wasn't the constant risk of high danger, if you didn't do the proper skilled behavior, it might get boring.

It seems the whole thing would develop a lot differently if the actual jumping wasn't compressed into such short time periods.

But I don't really think of it in terms of thrill seeking. More like "here's a thing people do, and there's an obvious fail rate, yet it's worth it to people, so it must be a pretty interesting thing to do"

Although I will say, it seems from DZ.com that skydiving may be stuck in old-school exclusionary thinking more than other activities, for some reason. I can understand that maybe that's part of the culture that contributes to safety or fun, or something. But it's not the best way to achieve those goals, I think.

[snowmman 3]

wolfriverjoe said:

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Last- You have used the lack of answers to your questions as indications that the skydiving community isn't as close-knit as we skydivers claim.

Yeah, you're right.
I guess I'm just focused on the period from '60 to '70.

I can believe things are different now, or not, but it doesn't matter for the Cooper thing.

Here's another thought. Would it be possible to put together a list of all PCA licenses granted, starting with A-1 or whatever you call it, with names, purely thru discussions with jumpers? There would likely be some missing right?

Then extend that to people who didn't get membership, then extend that to other countries.

(talking just about '60-'70)

I'm guessing we wouldn't be able to even get a list 30% complete? That's really my only point.

We can't even put together a list of jumpers. Makes me realize how unlikely it is that we could actually get a good list of suspects, if non-jumpers are included.

[snowmman 3]

philtheimpressiveguy said:

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the rig appears to be a pioneer 4 pin sport container . the angle of the top edge of the container gives it away. an nb8 or nb6 has sides that wrap around the top and bottom by about 2 inches. the b4 has pretty much a side flap that has an edge cut at a constant angle,BUT a pioneer sport container has a rounded contour to the edge of the side flap.also would have to say(based on the shade of the container and contrast of the p.o.bs) that the container is made of tan canvas with sage green pack opening bands(p.o.b.s)

wow. cool thanks. Amazing that you guys can eyeball old pics and do that. I guess the pic was '63, would the "pioneer sport rig" that Cossey provided probably be similar, or did pioneer introduce a lot of new stuff between '63 and '71

[377 20]

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wolfriverjoe said:

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Last- You have used the lack of answers to your questions as indications that the skydiving community isn't as close-knit as we skydivers claim.

Yeah, you're right.
I guess I'm just focused on the period from '60 to '70.

I can believe things are different now, or not, but it doesn't matter for the Cooper thing.

Here's another thought. Would it be possible to put together a list of all PCA licenses granted, starting with A-1 or whatever you call it, with names, purely thru discussions with jumpers? There would likely be some missing right?

Then extend that to people who didn't get membership, then extend that to other countries.

(talking just about '60-'70)

I'm guessing we wouldn't be able to even get a list 30% complete? That's really my only point.

We can't even put together a list of jumpers. Makes me realize how unlikely it is that we could actually get a good list of suspects, if non-jumpers are included.

I think there were quite a few jumpers in the late 60s who would not show up on any database. Some DZs did not require USPA membership. I jumped for many years without a USPA license of any kind.

Airtwardo is sure right about the cause of death shifting from gear to radical landings gone wrong. Someone once posted that as the gear becomes safer, skydivers do increasingly risky stuff to keep the fatality rate relatively constant.

Despite all the hype, skydiving can be a fairly safe sport if you are conservative. Just avoiding swoop landings will probably reduce your risk of death by about 60%. AADs today are very reliable and so are the ram air reserves. You can screw up and have a pretty good chance of living through it.

I did some tunnel flying for the first time a couple of months ago. It made me realize how much danger contributes to the fun and excitement of jumping. The tunnel experience was amazingly like real freefall, but not exciting at all.

Some jumpers think the Coopermania is stupid, but I don't. It is one of the great unsolved crimes of the 20th century and it involves parachuting. How can that NOT fascinate a jumper? Those who dont like this forum can skip it. It brings a lot of traffic to the website and that is a good thing overall.

It is a major longshot, but info developed here could solve the case and that would be a huge deal.

I think the recent CIA/727/SE Asia stuff opens some new avenues of investigation. Surely the guys who jumped that Air America 727 took note of Cooper's hijack and had some thoughts about it. They must have chuckled when Cooper's 727 jump was reported as a first. Sure would like to contact them.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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I did some tunnel flying for the first time a couple of months ago. It made me realize how much danger contributes to the fun and excitement of jumping. The tunnel experience was amazingly like real freefall, but not exciting at all.

Some jumpers think the Coopermania is stupid, but I don't. It is one of the great unsolved crimes of the 20th century and it involves parachuting. How can that NOT fascinate a jumper? Those who dont like this forum can skip it. It brings a lot of traffic to the website and that is a good thing overall.

It is a major longshot, but info developed here could solve the case and that would be a huge deal.

I think the recent CIA/727/SE Asia stuff opens some new avenues of investigation. Surely the guys who jumped that Air America 727 took note of Cooper's hijack and had some thoughts about it. They must have chuckled when Cooper's 727 jump was reported as a first. Sure would like to contact them.

377

I did some tunnel a couple of years ago (we don't have tunnels here, we had to make a trip to the US for it). I thought it was loads of fun, but not as exciting as a skydive - not the danger aspect for me, i just love love love the feeling of letting go of an aeroplane, doing bigger ways (I know sme tunnels fit 8-way, but no bigger?) and swooping down to a formation. You don't get anyone falling off early in the tunnel and having to catch them. Oh, and you have no views in a tunnel

If smokejumpers were doing work for the CIA & Air America, I wonder if there was any chance of one of them being on that load - there was cargo dropped as well, right?

377, any answer to my Q before about any differences in the SL and freefall rigs in the old days or could you pack the same rig for either opening? No-one has yet volunteered any info about what rigs the smokejumpers used.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 20]

I saw a smoke jumper rig back in the 70s. It was not military, but had the sage gree/olive drab fabric and webbing. It looked bigger and bulkier than sport or military S/L gear. The canopy was not a C9. As I recall it was a 32 foot (or close, more than 28 ft) round with so called Derry Slots for steering. They looked quite different from the skydiving canopy mods but did the same thing.

I don't recall seeing any ripcord pcoket. I think it was just for S/L, but I could be mistaken. Hopefully someone who knows more about smoke jumper rigs than I do will post a reply.

Our local tunnel can handle four ways. It is a great training tool but just not thrilling for me. Some little kids (under age 7) whose parents can afford the high cost are getting amazingly good at tunnel freefall skills.

I wonder when the USPA will lower their age limit for jumping? At WFFC there was a kid from Australia who was 12 and a great RW flyer. What is the age limit in SA?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Our local tunnel can handle four ways. It is a great training tool but just not thrilling for me. Some little kids (under age 7) whose parents can afford the high cost are getting amazingly good at tunnel freefall skills.

I wonder when the USPA will lower their age limit for jumping? At WFFC there was a kid from Australia who was 12 and a great RW flyer. What is the age limit in SA?

377

My daughter, who was 4 at the time, did a few minutes in the tunnel and LOVED it - so much so that she told us if she had to choose between going back to the tunnel or back to Disneyland the next day (we were in Orlando) she wanted to do tunnel!! (she got to do both btw )

Minimum age for SL or AFF is 16 with parental consent required under ...well I presume 18 now as our age of majority has been lowered from 21. Tandem is up to the discretion of the TM (and obviously need parental consent), I have seen kids jump tandem. In 2 minds about that one. I've seen some who loved it and wanted to go back, but also one whose dad was a jumper and he had obviously been pushed into it - i was on the same load as him and the poor little guy seemed terrified, it didn't seem right to me. I have seen TMs turn down people both because they feel they are too young and too old, but there is always another TM who will take them I guess...

smokejumper - bigger canopies because...? (accuracy? or does bigger only work for that with squares?)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 6]

~ I will say, it seems from DZ.com that skydiving may be stuck in old-school exclusionary thinking more than other activities, for some reason. I can understand that maybe that's part of the culture that contributes to safety or fun, or something. But it's not the best way to achieve those goals, I think.

I can definitely understand why you reach that type of conclusion from your point of view.

The unfortunate flaw within it is due to your nonparticipating...until ya swim with the sharks and walk away, the actual 'goal' may be obscure.


...in other words, come on out and make a few!

What's the worst that could happen?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[377 20]

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smokejumper - bigger canopies because...? (accuracy? or does bigger only work for that with squares?)

Dunno, having scored only one dead center in over 100 surplus round jumps and that was under my reserve. It was in a contest and they disqualified my one perfect accuracy jump because it wasn't made with my main. My other jumps were so far out of the pea gravel that they didnt bother measuring. Let's just say I had a good walk over to the peas to see my more skilled colleagues nailing the disc.

I think smoke jumpers are carrying a lot of gear (chainsaws, shovels, etc). You wouldn't want a small canopy if you are that heavy. I think they are dropped faily low so they don't get widely separated. The only accuracy they probably care about is trying to miss hazards.

http://www.parachutehistory.com/round/derry.html

http://www.smokejumpers.com/gallery/v/JonMarshall/Wildfire/51010469-L.jpg.html

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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... i get THIS as a google ad on the sidebar!?
I am inclined to blame Snow and 377

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Married But Looking
Find Married Wives Looking For Fun View Profiles 100% Free. Join Now!
www.LonelyHousewives

Snow and I are blameless, but Georger might not be ;-).

Reply> I laughed when I read his post, but its
not funny. Its probably malware. God only knows
from where. Try:
http://www.download.com/Malwarebytes-Anti-Malware/3000-8022_4-10804572.html

Thats the best I know to try but frankly, Im not
really sure what he's experiencing. ???

[377 20]

Orange, since you are a jumper we will say nothing to your husband about your attempts to enter that website .

Georger probably is just as advertised, straight arrow and never even a thought of straying. We need some anchors like Georger to stabilize the system. In my next life I will get it right, but this one is simply beyond redemption. Jimmy Carter was a good compromise. All his sinning was theoretical, which brings us back to the wind tunnel. Is there much thrill if there is no danger?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Is there much thrill if there is no danger?
377

I think it's not just there's danger, but there has to be the perception (reality) that the danger can be overcome by one's actions...it's that overcoming of what appears (to others) to be danger, that's what's cool?

Just doing something risky and living by luck is what teenagers do.

Doing something that's aesthetically pleasing at some level, possibly socially also, while being able to rise above the risk thru your own actions, that's what adults do.

The sad thing, I think, is that for the risk to be there (real risk), is that others have to fail. If no one ever fails, then by definition there is no risk.

I think the very hard thing to introspect about for all risk sports, is what part do the failures play in people's thinking about the activity? At a certain level, you can think of NASCAR racing here?



airtwardo: I still mulling over your post. I don't have a quick comeback!

[georger 197]

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You haven't and won't see a lot of the older guys posting on this thread. You seem to think that because none of the older jumpers answer when you ask "Did anybody jump at xxx time and place?" that there isn't an answer.

Hi wolfriverjoe:
nope. All I think is: Question. No answer. Oh well, no information that way. Move on to the next thought.

A better question you might ask yourself: Why do you think my questions make sense or don't make sense, in probing '60s skydive history?

How do you make a decision? Or do you not think about it really, and just like pointing out my weaknesses?

I really don't get it. How do you jumpers make a decision about whether all possible Coopers in the jump community have been looked at? Is the answer that you just don't think about it?

I understand the philosophy that Cooperites are bottom of the barrel waste-cases. But anyone reading this thread is part of the bottom feeding. So you can't point fingers. You're part of it if you're reading this.

In reverse order:

I'm not pointing fingers, just trying to point out some facts.
Some have the bottom of the barrel philosophy. 377, Airtwardo, are oldtimers who don't. Guru312 didn't, but he has been absent from here for a while (Change of heart?). I've been interested in the case since I was a kid. The detailed information is fascinating to me.

Ckret said all the DZs were checked out as part of the investigation. That doesn't mean all the jumpers were checked out. How likely is it that viable suspects were missed because one jumper didn't want to "snitch" on another?? I still believe Cooper was not an active experienced jumper.

I try to decide whether or not to post by considering the positve vs negative results of posting and keeping my mouth (keyboard) shut. I've deleted a lot of crap after typing it out and previewing it. (Restraint of tounge and pen). And yes, there is stuff I probably should have not posted, oh well.

I reply to you more than others because you post more than anyone else. You have a lot of great information and your searches are amazing, but I don't always agree with your conclusions. That doesn't make me right and you wrong, just a difference of opinion.
Your questions about '60s skydive history only make sense if Cooper was a real skydiver. If he wasn't (as I think), they are an interesting tangent. Highly informative, but not relevant to the mystery.

Last- You have used the lack of answers to your questions as indications that the skydiving community isn't as close-knit as we skydivers claim.

Reply> I lurked for a longtime before coming in.
Tested the waters (in other places) just to see the response but not sure I learned anything I didnt
already know. The internet is a place you enter knowing it has its wild/perverse side. So I can see
why a group of people with a common purpose would not invite outsiders in, except for entertainment - and
then how to get rid of them! and I am SURE that applies to me, in the minds of many, for various
reasons. The issue is credibility.

The problem with the Cooper-thing is people tend to
want a piece of the story, and some want to BE the
story. That causes conflict. There's no easy way out of
it except for Ckret, he can blow this all off with a
wave of his hand. That causes resentment in some.
But, the FBI and Ckret are/were the only one's here with any 'real' responsibility. The rest of us Pudknockers. All except for a few, who know in their
hearts they are nonexpendable, and wouldnt dawn a chute unless their asses were on fire!

There are some good heads who read here and never
say a word; would die first. Others come to take drink and then wander off. Why do people do anything?

And what will it matter when we need to settle the
Moon an then Mars and then fly off to the nearest
stars in search of new places to explore and settle?

It's a species work. That's why Cooper is fascinating
along the way...

[georger 197]

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~ I will say, it seems from DZ.com that skydiving may be stuck in old-school exclusionary thinking more than other activities, for some reason. I can understand that maybe that's part of the culture that contributes to safety or fun, or something. But it's not the best way to achieve those goals, I think.

I can definitely understand why you reach that type of conclusion from your point of view.

The unfortunate flaw within it is due to your nonparticipating...until ya swim with the sharks and walk away, the actual 'goal' may be obscure.


...in other words, come on out and make a few!

What's the worst that could happen?!

That brings up a helluva good point, I think.
People tend to try and do things, on their own terms.
From the FBi to Cooper to everyone in between.

(Thats why just about everybody bitches about
military service sooner or later, from Generals right down to the Pleb.)

Now imagine Cooper getting up suddenly, from his
seat next to Mucklow, and saying, "Shit! God damnit.
Aint gonna do it anymore! Ive had enough! I GIVE UP!"
and he holds his hands out to Mucklow (astounded)
to have her slap the bracelets on!

That didn't happen of course. Cooper was probably
thinking, "What's the worst that could happen".

Cooper doing things, on his own terms.

[377 20]

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airtwardo: I still mulling over your post. I don't have a quick comeback!

Just sign up for AFF Snow. Do some tunnel flying first and you will ace it. I prebought some bulk time and if you are gonna go for AFF I will give you a few tunnel flights free! I have a perfect low time rig (Triathlon 190 main, PD 193 reserve) you can borrow once you get certified. That will let you take your time shopping for your own gear. Lodi is about the cheapest DZ in the universe and I think it is within your geographical reach.

Just like pushing heroin to newbies, the first bag is free.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 20]

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The sad thing, I think, is that for the risk to be there (real risk), is that others have to fail. If no one ever fails, then by definition there is no risk.

Sadly, the folks doing low radical hook turns are keeping skydiving risk alive and healthy.

There was one guy at WFFC who died in a showoff landing. He clipped a truck on a swoop. He had been repeatedly warned (by very experienced jumpers) that he was cutting things waaay too close, but instead of moderating his approach, he lashed out and trashed his critics. So incredibly sad.

I have been scanning the holiday crowds looking for Cooper sketch lookalikes. So far ZERO. It is those delicate features (especially that very thin nose) that rule out the vast majority of men.

I keep wondering if Cooper was a skydiver. If he was, surely some jumpers in 1971 would have noticed a resemblance to the sketch. I don't think many skydivers would have turned him in, but the gossip would have spread like wildfire. I never heard of anyone claiming to know a jumper who was a good match to the sketch. All the likely suspects were relatively poor matches physically.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

again I'm just a whuffo speaking, but maybe it might be interesting to have some feedback.
As usual, I may be way wrong...just spewing based on my limited exposure to DZ.com.

In reading some of the event threads here, sometimes it seems the "community" is torn between documenting the event in extreme detail and ascribing a consensus root cause, versus worrying about perceptions or side effects of that. (liabilities? hurt feelings? friends? dunno)

Would seem more sane to just say "hey yeah, sure, people die, get hurt doing this all the time...here's a magazine we publish every year that shows how it happens for people".

I read one post on a thread which basically tried to promote the view "Yeah people die, you should just be ready for that"...which seemed pretty weird. Seems like teenager-level thinking..just accept it? I would think they're be a lot of pressure to NOT accept that.

I would think people would want to pour over accident reports all the time, to understand how they might be exposed, while they're doing the thing they love.

instead I read things like the USPA web site that seem to constantly tout how safe it is. Heck you would think a national organization would have a whole archive I could explore on accident stuff.

It seems to me, that a large part of the learning/study/practice is about stuff you need to know/do to be safe. ...i.e. risk management.

So that means the sport is inherently unsafe.
Which is fine.
People seem uncomfortable talking about the injuries/deaths/possible causes.
Even if the consensus is wrong (sometimes you can never know), there should be some consensus otherwise no learning happens?

It's also surprising to see people worry about media perception.

There's even a link on DZ.com addressing the issue of the media after accidents. Why would you care about the media? weird. Who cares what the press thinks.

There is an odd merging of mainstreamness and fringeness in skydiving it seems. Maybe because it's dependent on a lot of mainstream society things like planes? airspace, FAA ??? can't just say f** off to all of society?