DB Cooper

[Ckret 0]

I agree, the pills, not so much; the beer, keep it flowing I enjoy the humor. Snowmman, throw some shots in the mix and lets see what comes out

I am hoping to have something completed for 11/24, the work may not be finished but the story of the work may be to the point of release. Then again it may not, so you may want to get some Ambien. It seems to be working for some, just not fast enough

[377 21]

Good post Ckret, I was laughing. Welcome back.

Jo, don't flush those pills, send them to me, at least enough to hold me until 11/24. I'll send you some really good local microbrew lager in trade.

Earth to Commissioner Quade: We are all getting along much better now on the Cooper playground. The bullying and name calling has quieted down. You can now turn your attention to those drug crazed wack jobs on the Bonfire and Speakers Corner forums.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Quote

Orange... Congrats on your baby!!!!!

Baby? I must have missed the news. Way to go Orange, congratulations!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Ckret 0]

Always here 3 to the double 7, just not much for me to add to the conversation right now.

[snowmman 3]

Hey Jo,
You might not think of yourself as a dog person, since the dog came with the husband.

But obviously you are now, by hook or by crook.

It might feel like no new dog can replace your old dog. That will always be true. If you get a rescue, though, the new dog needs you as much as you need him, and you'll get some of the same good feeling.

An older dog would probably be better for you too, quieter, more settled. And those are harder for the rescue groups to place. There are 10 year old shelties in rescue in Florida. Search for sheltie rescue.

Be good for both of you!

[snowmman 3]

you just can't find good hookers any more.

I was busy today and someone outbid me in the last 45 minutes while I wasn't paying attention, so lost out on the Oct 1, 1971 timetable. Some canadian bastard.

[georger 197]

Quote

you just can't find good hookers any more.

I was busy today and someone outbid me in the last 45 minutes while I wasn't paying attention, so lost out on the Oct 1, 1971 timetable. Some canadian bastard.

Reply> reading through it all, you guys are too much! Pills, beer, dogs, babies, and not one Holstein in the whole lot! No cyotes, wolves or eagles or hawks circling above either. City people with
nothing but ads on the tv! That's no way to live, folks.

I saw a small black bear on the way home tonight - called it in but somebody had already reported
it after their garbage cans got looted.

Well anyway, Im thinking wind shears tonight and
wondering what its like to parachute through that?
You're going first one direction and then rather
suddenly another?

Now if a small bear was to parachute?

Gotta leave that beer alone.


Georger

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

.
Orange, I can't say that an abandoned car was not investigated, if it was, nothing of value came from it because it is not highlighted anywhere in the files that I can find.

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration.

Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

.
Orange, I can't say that an abandoned car was not investigated, if it was, nothing of value came from it because it is not highlighted anywhere in the files that I can find.

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration.

Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party.

Glad to see you're OK.
Georger

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Pills, beer, dogs, babies, and not one Holstein in the whole lot! No cyotes, wolves or eagles or hawks circling above either. City people with nothing but ads on the tv! That's no way to live, folks.
Georger

Add white face angus to that list. My father started one of the first White Faced Angus in KY. We had seen a herd in Fl (around 1948) and Daddy decided he had to have some. He took an old truck to FL and came back with the first of what became the most magnificant if not the first herd in grand old Kentucky. People used to drive out to the old fork in the road on the Bardstown Road/Raywick Rd just to look at those cows and they were ALL ours.

Who needed thorough bred horses anyway. We had 3 wild greys plus a couple of work horses. Those wild grays where a site to behold. Daddy sold the farm while I was in college and I always wondered how they ever got those greys out of there or if the new owner agreed to just leave them be.

I never could get close enough to get a rope on one them much less a bridle. Always wanted to ride one of them - they moved like the wind itself - and I never knew how they came to be on the farm in the first place. The farm belonged to my grandfather prior to Daddy purchasing it from his mother.

We could not plow a field without more arrowheads surfacing. Because of a natural spring,the area was populated by Indians in the past...strange I never did ask what tribes they might have been.
Some of us stumble threw life and take it as it comes and then ask questions later. Such was my life with Duane Weber.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

.
Orange, I can't say that an abandoned car was not investigated, if it was, nothing of value came from it because it is not highlighted anywhere in the files that I can find.

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration.

Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party.

So we have the accomplica angle again.

But ... look I don't know for sure but especially in pre computerized days - surely you normally had to hand in the ticket stub, otherwise how could they be sure that the takings they had matched what they should have been? In other words I still think that the ticket stub, if it existed, implies an abandoned car somewhere.

On the other hand your argument about taking the plane from Seattle to Portland.. well extend that logic and any parking stub from anywhere in the US that is near an airport becomes a possibility.

And, furthermore, IF he did indeed do that (fly from Seattle) - how does this square up with the hotel in Portland? Oh - it doesn't. More straws being clutched at? Which storyline exactly are we meant to go with?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Quote

.
Orange, I can't say that an abandoned car was not investigated, if it was, nothing of value came from it because it is not highlighted anywhere in the files that I can find.

Ckret: He may have taken the plane from Seattle to Portland and have left a car in Seattle - it would not have been abandoned. This would account for the SEA-TAC stub. It was a simple thing to have someone else go pick his car up at the airport - all you got was a stub and you paid as you go out - no one asked for Identification or registration.

Did the FBI run a check on EVERY car in the SEA-TAC parking lot? Just because he parked there doesn't mean he abandoned the car...also the car may not have belonged to him, but register to another party.

So we have the accomplica angle again.

But ... look I don't know for sure but especially in pre computerized days - surely you normally had to hand in the ticket stub, otherwise how could they be sure that the takings they had matched what they should have been? In other words I still think that the ticket stub, if it existed, implies an abandoned car somewhere.

On the other hand your argument about taking the plane from Seattle to Portland.. well extend that logic and any parking stub from anywhere in the US that is near an airport becomes a possibility.

And, furthermore, IF he did indeed do that (fly from Seattle) - how does this square up with the hotel in Portland? Oh - it doesn't. More straws being clutched at? Which storyline exactly are we meant to go with?

Reply: well, the boy got to PDX somehow, walked in,
drove in, flew in, dropped from the sky, came up
from under ground... in a previous discussion with
Ckret I seem to recall him saying the arrival and
hotel-motel angle was covered 'thoroughly' and
still nothing. Somebody saw something whether they realised it or not, but they didn't report anything?

There we go again - city people. Country people
notice everything. City people ignore much and what
they do see they may keep to themselves.

I mean think about this. One guy is sitting alone
at the back of the plane, sometimes with a stew
at his side, special attention? Who is this guy? A
VIP, somebody sick, and it goes on for several hours
and nobody pays any attention? (and the guy tells
Tina/Flo he doesnt want the passengers alerted?)
It may make sense to an urban person but it makes no sense to me -

Snow dug out the fact the 3:00pm flight itself was
a late addition, not a a regular flight. Somebody
approved and added the flight. Either Cooper taking
that flight was dumb luck and it did not matter (to him) which flight he took, or he learned of the flight
and selected it on purpose. Maybe he is the one who
added the flight or was in some close proximity to
learn about the flight's existence. That particular flight fit his whole timeline for an escape under cover
of darkness, the very evening before Thanksgiving
when people would be off guard and things would be shut down. (It's a water hole hunting scenario. You
lay in wait and watch and get ready and then you spring. You use circumstances to enable the kill. This is textbook stuff ).

That's how I see it from my bias.

Georger











Cooper found out

[snowmman 3]

We've talked a lot about the gauges Rataczak was looking at.

Here's 3 pictures from an old 727.
1) you can see the pilot/copilot view
2) you can see the overhead console
3) you can see the flight engineer's console

Be nice if someone can photoshop in a mark where the gauge is that indicated the reported pressure oscillations.

Would Anderson have seen something at his flight engineer console? Or would it only be at the pilot/copilot console.

I'm still not sure why Anderson was on the test drop flight.

[snowmman 3]

This is a minor issue, and doesn't add anything new, but I wanted to put a point on it, since it changes my perception of how the search went down.

I was just rereading the partial transcript Ckret provided that described how the DZ was predicted.

Looking at the way it was written, and the redacted signature that says "Northwest Airlines", I've suddenly realized that it apparently wasn't the FBI or the USAF that predicted the DZ.

Someone at Northwest Airlines did. And not a committee. Some single person?

What it makes me think: The Northwest guy probably didn't have access to the FBI debrief of Scott and Rataczak. He was working with what he had, which was transcripts and USAF radar and wind data, as noted in the transcript. He notes all data used, and the FBI interviews are not mentioned as data.

What he apparently didn't have were the FBI interviews of the crew??? We've mused about why the jump time seems to be wrong.

I think we incorrectly assumed that a committee of experts, with all the data, created the DZ prediction. It sounds like "Not so"...and that surprisingly NWA predicted the DZ?

attached the two important pages.

[snowmman 3]

it always intrigued me that the DZ prediction was page 272 and 273. That mean there's a larger report.

I've only found one small photo of the main FBI case report for Cooper. I've blown it up here so you can see how thick it is.

It would be great to scan all of that file into a pdf.
then we could search based on an OCR result, even if the OCR result was only "mostly" correct.

(edit) I'm pretty sure this is the main report. I've forgotten where I got the picture. Possibly a snap from a video.

[snowmman 3]

I just realized I've been mentioning the varying descriptions of the money find Brian gave while promoting his auction.
But never posted them.
In reviewing them, he used the phrase "all meshed together". I would interpret that as 3 individual bundles (separated by poor rubber bands) but acting as one bundle.

If you accept this (and I think it's consistent with his testimony elsewhere), then the question of 3 bundles somehow arriving at Tena Bar untethered together, implying a money bag or something..well it becomes moot...i.e. a "meshed bundle" can travel as one unit.

That's why I said it's a myth that the money bag is needed to transport 3 bundles to tena bar, to the found state, or that a money bag is needed to protect them (somehow better than sand and water)

from NewsOK (oklahoma newspaper)

http://newsok.com/article/3200118/?print=1

Famed skyjacker's loot is up for sale

By Ron Jackson
Published: February 3, 2008
Mena, Ark.
..
On Feb. 10, 1980, however, the youngster would experience an entirely new level of adventure.

"I remember it was getting chilly that day, and I asked my father if we could build a fire,” recalled Ingram, who was born in El Reno. "Really, I was looking for any excuse to build a fire, but my dad said yes. He told me to go gather up some wood. So before long, I came back with a bundle of wood in my arms, and we picked a spot on the beach to make the fire. Before starting the fire, though, I said, ‘Wait. Let me smooth out the sand.' And I got down on my knees and pushed the sand with my arm.

"That's when I first saw three bundles of money just below the surface, all meshed together. The rubber bands were still on them, but they were brittle to touch and just crumbled off.”

The boy and his father stared in wonder.

"My uncle was there, and he didn't think it was anything,” Ingram continued. "He thought we should just throw it in the fire, but my father said, ‘No, this is something.' We put the money in a bread sack, and the next day my parents called the police.”

---------------------------------------------------
A slightly different account, but supporting, is next. Apparently from http://www.sequoyahcountytimes.com although I couldn't find the source article there. I found a copy of the article in digest form at
http://www.losttreasure.com/Newsletter/index.cfm?NewsletterID=246&PageToGo=578

"Ingram said he found the money in 1980 on a sandy beach when he lived in Vancouver, Wash. He recalls spending time on a beach along the Columbia River with his family, which was always a quiet time to play Frisbee. On the day that he found the money, he said it was chilly and he asked his dad about building fire. Ingram gathered firewood and was raking back the sand when he uncovered part of a money packet.
All in all, he discovered three packets of $20 bills - totaling $5,880 - all in one spot in the sand.
"The rubber bands around the bills disintegrated when you touched them," Ingram recalls.

....
While Ingram said he doesn't know if the man known as Cooper is alive today, he, like everyone else interested in the case, is only left to speculate.
But Ingram thinks there is more to the story. He points to the fact that the money he found was stacked neatly on top of one another with rubber bands.

----------------------------------------------
Note I think Brian was being overly speculative there with "stacked neatly on top of one another"...I prefer to think that's an imagination of the single meshed bundle

here Brian uses a different phrase: "touching each other"

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=56508

'"There were three bundles sitting there touching each other with rubber bands on them," he said. "They turned to powder. They were pretty old.'

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

So we have the accomplica angle again

Not really - after a few days he could easily have taken a taxi to the airport and got his car. By then the dye was washed out his hair and he had on regular glasses and maybe casual clothes. Get out of a taxi - wait for the taxi to leave and go right for the parking lot.
---------------------------------

Quote

But ... look I don't know for sure but especially in pre computerized days - surely you normally had to hand in the ticket stub, otherwise how could they be sure that the takings they had matched what they should have been? In other words I still think that the ticket stub, if it existed, implies an abandoned car somewhere.

We all can only guess on that one and anything I write about the ticket stub is a guess - except it did exist. It was grayish to blueish with Sea-Tac in BIG letters.

I asked Duane what SEA-TAC was because I had NO idea. I had never heard of SEA-TAC. He just said what he did about many things - "it doesn't mean anything". I don't remember now if he explained what SEA-TAC was. LaterI went back to the shop after he went on dialysis, it must have struck me as odd at that time - but it was gone. He had retrieved it from the shop trash can.

This was in 1990 when he first went on dialysis - it was a trying time and I was suspicious of his past because I found out about the John Collins thing during those 3 months.
-------------------------------------

Quote

IF he did indeed do that (fly from Seattle) - how does this square up with the hotel in Portland? Oh - it doesn't. More straws being clutched at? Which storyline exactly are we meant to go with?

NO straws being clutched at. It is a perfect match. If he spent the night before the hijacking at the hotel - HOW DID HE GET to Portland and the hotel? To me the SEA TAC stub is a cinch - he left his car in Seattle. The question is when he fllew out of Seattle - was his destination Portland or someplace else that allowed him to stop in Portland ... such as CA or OR? Later he gets back on a plane and flys back to Portand. At that point he checks into the hotel and the next day does the deed. He has done a go back at you and no one gets it...he is just an ordinary man no one remembers.

I have always wondered how throughly the FBI checked the passenger list for 2 or 3 days before the Hijacking???? Duane supposedly had 2 stepsons living in the Vancouver area around that time. He had a sister in CA, but I don't know exactly where - I think near Modesto.

He lived in CA for several yrs and his parents lived there until their death...perhaps he went back where they were buried - Alhambra, CA. Sierra Madre, CA is on some papers regarding an attorney used when his mother's will was processed. This could have been an estate attorney or it could be a general attorney used for other family issues - Noren Eaton was the attorney.

If Duane felt he might not survive this feat - would he not have gone to say good-by to the sister he loved and to see his parents grave site?

Note - much of this is theory, but I know more about Duane and his thought processes than any of you do - he was a sentimental fool about special occasions.

Both of his parents died while he was in a CA. prison 1956 and 1958. He never got to say Good-By. This conflicts with something the brother told me - but his mother's Obit is stamped Censor on the back - so he must have been in prison when his Mom died also.

377 - what can you tell me about this attorney? What kind of attorney was he?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

Quote

This is a minor issue, and doesn't add anything new, but I wanted to put a point on it, since it changes my perception of how the search went down.

I was just rereading the partial transcript Ckret provided that described how the DZ was predicted.

Looking at the way it was written, and the redacted signature that says "Northwest Airlines", I've suddenly realized that it apparently wasn't the FBI or the USAF that predicted the DZ.

Someone at Northwest Airlines did. And not a committee. Some single person?

What it makes me think: The Northwest guy probably didn't have access to the FBI debrief of Scott and Rataczak. He was working with what he had, which was transcripts and USAF radar and wind data, as noted in the transcript. He notes all data used, and the FBI interviews are not mentioned as data.

What he apparently didn't have were the FBI interviews of the crew??? We've mused about why the jump time seems to be wrong.

I think we incorrectly assumed that a committee of experts, with all the data, created the DZ prediction. It sounds like "Not so"...and that surprisingly NWA predicted the DZ?

attached the two important pages.

We used flight data from NW, the person doing the calulations on the jump was a Boeing engineer who was a member of their jump club

[Ckret 0]

Quote

it always intrigued me that the DZ prediction was page 272 and 273. That mean there's a larger report.

I've only found one small photo of the main FBI case report for Cooper. I've blown it up here so you can see how thick it is.

It would be great to scan all of that file into a pdf.
then we could search based on an OCR result, even if the OCR result was only "mostly" correct.

(edit) I'm pretty sure this is the main report. I've forgotten where I got the picture. Possibly a snap from a video.

One file of several hundred; there is no "main" file. the main file number is 164-SE-81 "NORJAK" there are hundreds of sub-files. There are files that look like the one you posted that are summary files that contain all of the main 302's from the night of the jump as well as all main investigative efforts. If you could get your hands on just one file that would be the one.

[snowmman 3]

I apologize Jo. I forgot to mention Duane in my posts.
I attached some stuff you should be able to work with.
You can date them by the silver they're pulling. The rest should be obvious to you.
Get the beer cans id'ed, and you'll be one step closer.


Du-ane the Rat, the wonderful, wonderful rat
Whenever he gets in a fix, he reaches into his bag of tricks
You'll laugh so much your sides will ache
Your heart will go pitter pat
Watching Du-ane, the wonderful rat.

[snowmman 3]

Ckret says:

Quote

We used flight data from NW, the person doing the calulations on the jump was a Boeing engineer who was a member of their jump club

I still believe the result didn't include "data" from the FBI debrief of the crew, nor did the FBI create the predicted DZ.
Nothing in the DZ report indicates the crew debrief was used.

The FBI got a DZ report handed to them, from what I can tell. There would be no FBI agent that would feel qualified to assimilate data from the technical people of that time.


okay this is new info about "Boeing jump club", so let's beat it to death and see if anything's there.

The transcript does mention a NWA pilot providing info, who's supposed to be an "expert parachutist" and also getting human body trajectories (free fall) from Boeing. Why would Boeing have human body trajectories?

In any case, your mention of a Boeing engineer from their "jump club" is new.

The jumpers here like to talk about the whuffo factor in skydiving...i.e. wannabes, hangers-on, etc.

While I'm sure the FBI cleared all in the Boeing "jump club" ...what about other people that might have worked with them?

I can imagine that if there was a Boeing jump club, the discussion about jumping from a 727 might have occurred there as a "can you imagine this" kind of deal.

Was there any FBI interviews of the jump club....Did anyone ever recall a conversation about a 727 jump before Cooper did it? I'm wondering if the general atmosphere of the era led people to possibly joke about it.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

You can date them by the silver they're pulling. The rest should be obvious to you.
Get the beer cans id'ed, and you'll be one step closer.

I got it, but doubt anyone else did.
Can any of you guys tell me when the group picture was taken...Snowman has gone to bed?

I know ZERO about beer, but due to the clothing, slide, lawn chair, crew cuts - I say early/mid 60's. The two guys on the end sure do look like pilots...the two in the middle they could be a couple of skyjackers ugh I meant to say skyjumpers...or did I mean to say skyjackers.

Oh, and by the way the photo of the young man with the beer in his hand that is you Snowmman - you don't look old enough in that photo be drinking a beer so it has to be a soda.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

***377 - what can you tell me about this attorney? What kind of attorney was he [Noren Eaton]?

Jo,

Eaton is deceased. He was admitted to the CA bar in 1925! Most people are about 25 when they take the bar making his likely birth year around 1900.

No specialty listed. Practiced in Sierra Madre until death from what I can tell.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/609101.html

I know the woman who found the money in this car. MILLIONS!!!! Gold and platinum too. She worked for the rental agency and was dispatched to look for the car at the SFO parking lot. I don't think her husband ever forgave her for not just driving the car home, unloading the money and driving it back. She had the keys. They fought the US Govt and the rental car company over the find, and lost. The govt seized it as drug proceeds based on coke traces. Turns out ALL currency has some coke traces.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Thank you, I was counting on you to provide that. I knew he would be deceased but thought he might have had a specialty. Back in those days families tended to use the same attorney for everything.

My gut tells me that his old case files will show that he represented not only the family in 1958 but Duane Weber when he was arrested and sent to McNeil in 1943 and maybe later when he was sent to San Quentin (SanQuentin may have been a public deffender - since he was a legal adult at that time and a second time offender).

1943 he was actually not old enough to be sent to a federal prison - the identification he had and the McNeil prison file and identification on him stated he was born 6/18/1920 when he was really 4 yrs younger...this birthdate is stated in the prison files.

He was only 19 yrs old (not the 24 yrs of age the state sentenced him under) in 1945 (accounting for the alteration of his birth record in 1942). It has been stated the family intervened and he was placed into another program with the assistance of friends. He at the very most spent actually 6 months in McNeil - but was utililized in the orchards and diairies in the area due to the war effort and lack of man power..

Some how he managed to end up in CA. in a program either he or the parent arranged. I find it difficult to believe he arranged this on his own at the age of 20 - he was the baby and they wanted him closer to home. If I can verify this it will substanciate his where-abouts from 1945 until 1948 or 49. It could also be a wild goose chase - but right now it is coming together. Before when I got to this point I didn't have everything I needed - now I do...I just have to follow thru.

I couldn't get the FBI to help me or believe that they would assist me so I struck out on my own a wk ago...and today it really hit home. All it took was a Name to connect the dots from 1945 to 1980 and then back to WA and OR.

What I am doing may not put him in a chute or on the plane, but it will definitely increase the probabilaties. It explains his target and creates an association with known jumpers - something I didn't have before...I had it I just didn't know it - but this has been staring me in the face since the early 80's...ys before he told me anything or any knowledge of his past.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber