Lap a myth?

[councilman24 36]

I know it isn't but in 25 years I've only ever seen one REFERENCE to a PHOTO. A while back there was a set of Irvin product promotional cards for sale and one was supposedly of the lap chute. But the photos illustrating the auction didn't include that one. Otherwise I've never seen a photo or met a rigger with the rating.

Even if you dug one up is there anyway to get a rating now? I doubt any DPRE's or FAA employees have the rating.

Howard, you must have something.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[howardwhite 5]

Google is your friendhttp://www.geocities.com/sf260ray/Parachute/lap.html
(More later, I think.)

HW

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Terry,

This why I am opposed to any type rating for riggers.

If you can read the manuals and can pack a parachute you can pack any parachute.

Unless you are just inept,

JerryBaumchen

[councilman24 36]

You know I have googled it before, but not for awhile. Do you know who the author is?

And is that really a lap or a low chest? I thought a lap was a pilot emergency rig. The photo is a front reserve on a back main.

I wish I'd bought those cards off ebay. But they went for between $50 and $100 IIRC and I was feeling poor at the time.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[NickDG 23]

Part 65 CERTIFICATION: AIRMEN OTHER THAN FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS
Subpart F -- Parachute Riggers

Sec. 65.121

Type ratings.

(a) The following type ratings are issued under this subpart:
(1) Seat.
(2) Back.
(3) Chest.
(4) Lap.

The above is from the current FARs. While I do understand the use of "type ratings" in the pilot arena I've never understood the need for them based on the "position" someone wears a parachute. A parachute is a parachute is a parachute . . .

Do my rigging skills suddenly evaporate if someone sits on their rig?

And there are no "type ratings" on my A&P license. Technically I can change a tire on a Cessna 150 and then turn around and swap out an engine on a 747.

NickD BASE 194

[howardwhite 5]

You know everything I know about the Google entry and the lap parachute. Now that I am at home and have had a look at Poynter, I find no picture of one, and only one reference: "The U.S. Army Airplane parachute Type S (service) was produced in back, seat, chest and lap models." (1977 Poynter, haven't looked at the 1972 three-ring binder version, but doubt it's different in this section.)

HW

[councilman24 36]

I disagree. I think that round versus square is a legitimate distinction. The master rigger who taught me may have only packed a few ram air reserves up to the time I got my license. They were in bags with out through loops. Even when packing in some rigs that should have used through loops he didn't because it was inconvient. These were also original swifts in rigs that were like pillows. When he first got student rigs with ramair reserves that "fit" he couldn't get one in the bag. He tried several times and couldn't come close. He had twenty years of experience, all the instructions, had jumped ramair mains since the baby plane, but couldn't get it in the bag. He came to me and I easily put it in the bag. Not because I was better but because I had been packing ram air reserves and by this time had been to the last Rigger Conference if not the first Symposium. Once he saw it, he understood, went home, practice a few and put the rigs together.

I think a rigger that has only seen one or two rounds in a course might have a similar problem packing a Preserve V in a free bag with a lazy leg bridle and chevron fabric tube line stows using a hook. Or a Security 350 or Strong Seat. (The Preserve V is an extreme example. I'm glad I saw it packed two or three times before I had to do one. and I learned on rounds.) "Flake in the usual manner" What the hell does that mean? "Fold in fifths?" It's never really looked like fifths to me but I guess that's the best description. Only half the lines under the diaper? What's up with that.

I understand all of these instructions because I was taught. I've figured out several ram air rigs because I was taught the basics. But a rigger CAN get a rating with only rounds or squares. I would HOPE that a DPRE would test the less familiar. But I'm not sure that the Forest Service (or BLM, I can never remember which one uses rounds) DPRE tests them on the less familar. But Dave DeWolf while having his students pack a few rounds tests on squares.

I'm not sure lap chest seat and back ever made since. But I do think that round and square would.

And theres a whole lot that I don't know and won't do even though my master rating allows me to.

Man, this post is much too serious.

I demand a different lap photo.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[howardwhite 5]

Quote

You know I have googled it before, but not for awhile. Do you know who the author is?

No, but if you hack through his web presence, you find these interesting packing instructions.
http://www.geocities.com/sf260ray/Parachute/Switlic1.html

HW

[councilman24 36]

I saw those instructions. I just realized that it's the instructions for a (or 2?) parachute that was given to our DZO, hmm or a guy that was living out there. It had the wrap around cable closure. Now I could pack one!

AFAIK they never opened either one. The DZO's widow was wondering if they were worth anything or useful to a museum. They were stained and had a couple of small tears in the container so no museum quality. I need to see if that still around.

The more I read the article I'm not sure the "lap" designation wasn't tounge in cheek. The scan of the photo in a magazine or book (another photo is on the edge) doesn't really look like a 1998 photo. And there is a photo of the author on the web stuff that is much older than the guy in the "1998" photo. So not real sure what the deal is.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

I think we crashed the site!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skypuppy 1]

I don't know if this is a lap pack -- It is a photo of John Tranum, a test jumper with Irvin Parachutes in the 30's ready to go on a high altitude jump. The thing on his chest is his oxygen system. He is standing with Capt. Charles Barnard, probably in the UK. Taken from his book "Nine Lives- the Story of the Parachutist John Tranum as written by Himself".

I apologize for the photo it is a scan of a photocopy.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[riggerrob 558]

The story that I heard ... was that LAP type parachutes were designed to fit a rare type of gun turret that was only build briefly during the 1930s.
That type of gun turret had disappeared by the start of the Second World War.

And there is a photo of an airman wearing a LAP type parachute in Poynter's Manual, Volume one, circa 1984.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, I know how much Americans hate having their noses rubbed in "things not invented in the USA," but may I suggest a simpler system of licensing riggers.
It has worked well in Canada for a decade or so.

A new Rigger A is allowed to chose which type of canopy he/she is tested on and which type of container.

CSPA defines canopies as:
Round
Square

Containers are divided into:
1-pin sport (Vector, Javelin, Infinity, etc.)
2-pin sport (Wonderhog, Dual Hawk Tandem, etc.)
Pop-Top (Racer, Reflex and Teardrop)
Chest
Pilot Emergency Parachutes.

Since PEPs are so diverse, riggers must be certified to pack both types of canopies and all other types of containers before they are allowed to test on packing PEPs.

The primary reason that CSPA changed from the old (i.e. FAA) system of designating equipment was that round mains disappeared from Canadian DZs twenty-some odd years ago, with round reserves disappearing form most a decade or so ago.
Young riggers whined about wasting time learning how to repack round reserve when they never intended on touching round reserves after earning their certificates.
Similarly Pop-Tops have gotten scarcer and scarcer every year since the introduction of Cypres, and few young riggers were willing to devote the time and effort to learning how to pack Pop-Tops.
Hint: I am a Master Rigger who routinely packs more than 200 reserves per year and I barely pack enough Pop-Tops to stay competent ... not current, much less fast, just barely competent.

[councilman24 36]

Where? I see lots of low hung chest reserves but no lap emergency chute.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[airtwardo 6]

http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/Callahans%20Trapeze.htm

Terry~ Isn't that a photo of one 1/2 way down the page?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[councilman24 36]

I don't know but I don't think so. But what do I know, I've never seen one.

Rob says there is a photo in Poynter's 1984 but not in mine that I can find. There are lots of photos of reserve parachutes hanging very low on intentional jumping rigs. Some are vertical two pins and very low, but are reserves, not emergency rigs. I thought the lap was an emergency rig, and there is one very brief reference that one military emergency chute was made in a lap version.

The one in the photo you posted is actually a lot higher than some of the reserve chutes in Poynter's. And it doesn't seem to have especially long risers. But then it doesn't look like a QAC.

Hmm, actually the risers on the re-enactment are as long as seat risers. Maybe it is a lap. But then again they may not have used the same parachute.

Maybe it is a lap.

Now I wish I'd bought those ad cards.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

This mesage written over about an hour. Hence the sequential "finds". Damn, Rob was right, again. I can't believe in 26 years since I bought it I can't believe I never saw this photo.

Hmm, I just checked my copy of "Meet the Parachute Use and Maintenance" by O.J. Mink and the Reliance Manufacturing Company and it lists everything but lap; S, B, C, (seat, back, chest) type, T (troop) type, QAC, etc.

Eureka!

I actually have photos of packing a lap!

The book "Parachute Technician" by Charles A. Zweng "former Instructor U.S.Army Air Corps, Member of Institue of Aeronautical Sciences, Author of Radio and Instrument Flying, Flight Instructor, etc. Published by Pan American Navigation Service 12021 Ventura Boulevard, North Hollywood, California (pre ZIP) copyright 1944 Inserted loose additional test questions copyright 1948.

Forward flyleaf

" This text is especially written to prepare the applicant for his government rating. The first text of its kind. Here the parachute technician will find a basic text fortified with pertinent "typical Multiple Choice examinations", designed to prepare him for his written test."

The index refers only to text in the beginning...
"...The lap pack was developed for the use of machine gunners and photographers who generally have the most room directly in front and below the waist. ..."

But, Page 53 Fig. 4 "Position of lap pack and harness when first laid on table for packing canopy."

Page 58 Fig. 15 "Position of lap pack with lift webs placed on container prior to packing shroud lines."

Page 61 Fig. 22 "Lap pack in position, ready for folding the canopy."

But no photo of packed or worn lap.

Well crap, Poynter's does have a photo! The same second edition but NOT in the military section. It's in the Irvin section 5.065 page 176. Second printing, third edition, volume I Page 202. Non detachable with long rises, essentially seat container flopped forward with riser coming out the opposite end.

Hmm, and the book I quoted above could be called packing instructions. Now I need one and an examiner.


Too late tonight to scan.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Howard,

Now that I've seen on the one you found on google isn't a lap, as best I can tell. Looks like a low mounted chest. The key appears to be no risers coming from the shoulders into the front pack. And with the back it would be a troop type with a non-detachable reserve.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Your scan looks like an especially low mounted chest type reserve unique to that jump so the oxygen system could be mounted higher. Again the lacking characteristic are risers from the shoulder down to the pack. Looks like it's snapped on lower. Maybe.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

Damn, so there is. A photo in Poynter's. All these years and I don't remember seeing it.

Hat's off to your memory!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 36]

I'm really bummed!

There was a WWII Navy user manual on parachutes on ebay yesterday. I wasn't around to up my bid and lost it. It had the clearest picture of a lap being worn I've seen yet. And seems to indicate they were around in WWII unless the label was wrong. I now have a mission to try to find one! We have a warbird museum here in town and that's my first stop. IF they were around in WWII there is a higher likely hood that someone has kept one around somewhere.

I have the other book with packing instructions. Then all I would need is a DPRE.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[poppenhager 1]

***I think Switlik Parachute Co. made most of the lap type.If you can find a pre 1950 Switlik manual it will show the instructions.I had one that I loaned to Poynter in 1970 (which he returned) but can't find it in all my junk!!!

Pop

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Then all I would need is a DPRE.

Wouldn't the DPRE need to have the lap rating to be able to test you for it?

[councilman24 36]

You know, that's the theory. But, if the FAA offers the rating there must be a way to get it. It may mean that it would have to be an FAA inspector or a wavier or something. I'm now on a campaign to resurrect the lap rating! Of course I'm also going to have to pack it 20 times in front of whoever could give me the test!

Call me Don Quixote (sp?)

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE