D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Hey SkydiveJack, 377, and any other pilots out there!

I just figured out why the FAA, FBI, and AF won't release the Radar tapes.....

They don't want potential hijackers to see the super-secret "I'm being hijacked" squawk code LOL!

Sluggo_Monster

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[Guru312 0]

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They don't want potential hijackers to see the super-secret "I'm being hijacked" squawk code

7500

Not a secret by any means.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Okay, I’ll get serious now.

SkydiveJack Said:
So an altitude of 10,000 ft would automatically require the plane to take this or some other coastal route.

This is where my head was last night.

I don’t fly IFR, so I may be mis-interpreting what I see, but, from looking at Enroute L-1 and considering MSA (or I guess it should be OROCA, as I said, I'm not instrument rated), it looks (to me) that that there are only two logical routes south (at 10,000 MSL). They are V-23 and V-27. We’ve talked a lot about V-23 because it’s the one taken, but I was trying to find a reason to eliminate V-27. That is; a reason that Cooper would have known about.

V-27 goes SW to the HQM VOR then SE to AST VOR/DME and continues down the coast, so I suspect this was the “out over the coast” route discussed by NW staff. I can’t come up with a reason that would eliminate V-27.

Go to http://skyvector.com/ to see what I mean.

Anybody got any ideas?

Thanx,

Sluggo_Monster

Edited to clarify Minimum Safe Altitude reference.

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[BGill 0]

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This is big! I am a pilot. Non-pilots would not be expected to know about flight plan filing procedures. Even some licensed pilots forget that you can file in the air.

Of course we are talking about an IFR (instrument flight rules) flight plan that has to be filed by every FAA Part 121 airliner, even if VFR (visual flight rules) conditions exist along the entire route of flight. A private aircraft can take off in VFR conditions and file an IFR in the air. But a pilot would know that in an emergency like a hijacking, ATC (air traffic control) would be able to route that aircraft right away.

I don't know about this one. I'm not a pilot and I interpret what Cooper says differently. "It doesn't matter, they can file it in the air" to me just sounds like an impatient individual who is trying to take command of the situation and tell people what to do. To me it sounds more like "Their procedures don't matter to me. I have a bomb. You do what I say. Stop wasting time and get in the air. You can do your paperwork later."

Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I the only one who read it that way? This wouldn't rule out the first interpretation (that he was familiar with procedures), it just throws another possibility in the mix.

[airtwardo 6]

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This is big! I am a pilot. Non-pilots would not be expected to know about flight plan filing procedures. Even some licensed pilots forget that you can file in the air.

Of course we are talking about an IFR (instrument flight rules) flight plan that has to be filed by every FAA Part 121 airliner, even if VFR (visual flight rules) conditions exist along the entire route of flight. A private aircraft can take off in VFR conditions and file an IFR in the air. But a pilot would know that in an emergency like a hijacking, ATC (air traffic control) would be able to route that aircraft right away.

I don't know about this one. I'm not a pilot and I interpret what Cooper says differently. "It doesn't matter, they can file it in the air" to me just sounds like an impatient individual who is trying to take command of the situation and tell people what to do. To me it sounds more like "Their procedures don't matter to me. I have a bomb. You do what I say. Stop wasting time and get in the air. You can do your paperwork later."

Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I the only one who read it that way? This wouldn't rule out the first interpretation (that he was familiar with procedures), it just throws another possibility in the mix.

I think you're right.

And add to that, 'at that time' hi-jack response procedures called for the fight crew to delay delay delay...keep the aircraft on the ground for any reason even remotely believable...Cooper probably knew this and wasn't buying the excuse.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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I don't know about this one. I'm not a pilot and I interpret what Cooper says differently. "It doesn't matter, they can file it in the air" to me just sounds like an impatient individual who is trying to take command of the situation and tell people what to do. To me it sounds more like "Their procedures don't matter to me. I have a bomb. You do what I say. Stop wasting time and get in the air. You can do your paperwork later."

Good point!

I think a more likely statement from a stressed-out non-pilot would be “I don’t care about procedures or flight plans, just get this thing in the air!” But, that is pure speculation. We’ll probably never know.

I guess I’m “thinking” of him as a pilot due to the instruction to fly with flaps at 15 deg AND wheels-down.

One conclusion that I am about to come to is: He didn’t think his chances of surviving were very good. The more he knew, the more he would have come to the conclusion that surviving was next to impossible (assuming he didn’t have a clue about where he was).

Maybe, he was terminally ill or suicidal.


Sluggo_Monster

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[skyjack71 0]

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Could not have happened according to the condition the money was found in. The rubber bands would have rotted long before the bundles were found on the beach, meaning there would not have been bundles if the money was in the environment unprotected.

Do a little chemistry experiment as I did a few yrs ago...Two Mason Jars - placed a $1 bill and a wide rubber band in each jar. One sat in my window sill and the other under the kit cabinet. Note: I also added a little dirt - soil from under the oak tree and the azaelas as I felt this would be the closest I could get to WA. soil.

*The one in the window sill - faded and got murky.
*The one under the counter - did not faded and the water also got murky.
*14 months later I empty the contents and and laid them out on my deck in a kitty litter box of sand and the same soil...9 oak trees in that yard.
*I live in Fl. so lots of humidity - it was around
Thanksgiving that I laid them out a screen across
top and some more soil..
*March 28th the day of his death - I uncoverd them
*The window sill sample was still faded and rubber
band still Ok.
*The undercounter sample was still almost the same.
*Nov. (one yr. later) after I had put them there.
Rubber band on window band - brittle.
Rubber band undercount - brittle.
*BUT the bills were discolored from the soil - and I did not see this kind of discoloration on the pictures of the bills in the books.

What did I learn? The money had been protected from the constant murky river ---the bills had not been in the water for 9yrs...if so - Coopers found money would have be yucky and very discolored.

Rubber bands didn't tell me anything. But the bills shouted - "I was not in the water for 9 yrs".

[skyjack71 0]

Newpapers are about the same weight as the paper our money is made of - hence 20 lbs of newspaper cut in to bill sizes should give you the approx size of the package.

[skyjack71 0]

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.
In conclusion-
1. Only a pilot would normally know about filing a flight plan in the air.
2. By telling the crew to fly at 10,000 ft you could reasonably expect to fly along V23 without overtly stating what route you wanted to be on.
3. For someone familiar with flying at night in that area it would be fairly easy to tell where you are in relation to Vancouver and Portland, even with low clouds and even by looking out the side windows.
4. If I recall correctly, Cooper bought his ticket in Portland shortly before the flight to Seattle so he could have had some idea what the weather would be along that route later in the day and evening.
5. 10,000 ft is the normal maxium altitude for an airline flight crew operating under FAA Part 121 to be unpressurised and off oxygen (as in not wearing an oxygen mask, like Cooper in the back).

Sorry to disallusion you - I am not a pilot - but I knew most of the above things just from association prior to meeting Duane...I had friends who were pilots and was dating a pilot.

The only things I was not aware of was V23 being a low altitude. He told the pilot he wanted to go to Mexico - I would expect in a hijack for that to be the most direct line and if we started out over the ocean - I would be calling the pilot. Never mind that I had already made the trip a couple of days before and planned on jumping 20 minutes after the wheels left the runway. The calculation had already been made with the speed reduced to 150...just had to jump in a window of time. Plus I had flow over that area many times before.

A flight from ATL to Frankfort Ky - in a 727. Standing in the galley -you could see out the cracks of the door and feel the air...obviously we were at a low altitude...looking at the ground - I thought - hey, I could jump that - of course I was a lot younger.
I asked a couple of pilots how high we were - we were over 10,000 ---.

[skyjack71 0]

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I still think if a calculated Cooper exit point cannot be reconciled with the location of the found money then the exit point calculation is erroneous and needs to be moved. Just my opinion though. I am very impressed with Safecracker's modeling using maps, water flow etc.

"I am on time, so everyone else must have come 5 minutes early."

[skyjack71 0]

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btw - can't remember who theorized about a military loadmaster - did they wear emergency rigs? what rigs did the pilots of military jump planes wear?

What about a smokejump loadmaster?

[skyjack71 0]

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If he cannot swim, the money can help keep him afloat for some length of time... a deployed chute would certainly hinder his movement though... but all this would be drifting downstream.

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Someone with survival training knows that you can use a pair of pants for a float... I find it hard to believe at a chute, a body, a bag and a briefcase all submerged and nothing was found for 9 yrs except money that had to have been protected for a period of time before reaching that beach.

[skyjack71 0]

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Two chances to see a Cooper echo. I'll stop ranting about radar when Ckret tells me that the ATC and possible intercept radar tapes no longer exist.!

Me too! I really want to know the answer to that one.

Also a call to the Co-pilot could clear up any questions about the equipment on the plane and the time frames. What is the FBI waiting for - for one more witness to die before verifying the information? Well, then Cooper could be debated until the end of time....

[377 21]

Skyjack71 wrote:

'
"A flight from ATL to Frankfort Ky - in a 727. Standing in the galley -you could see out the cracks of the door and feel the air...obviously we were at a low altitude...looking at the ground - I thought - hey, I could jump that - of course I was a lot younger.
I asked a couple of pilots how high we were - we were over 10,000 ---."

Jo, How could you "see out of the cracks of the door" standing in the galley of a pressurized 727? If you were over 10,000 ft the plane was definitely pressurized. The 727 has airtight door seals on every fuselage door which all leak a tiny bit, but certainly not enough to see through. Are you 100% sure about this memory?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Jo has implied that Duane might have been a prisoner-smoke jumper or jumpmaster/loadmaster, perhaps while at Folsom. I can find no evidence that state prisoners were used as smoke jumpers ever. I have been inside Folsom and San Quentin many times meeting with prisoners. I have heard about low security prisoners from county jails being occasionally recruited for ground based fire fighting in emergency situations, but not the hardcore state felony convicts typically incarcerated at Folsom or San Quentin. One of the prisoners I spoke with at Folsom was a decorated Army Ranger and Viet Nam combat vet. He would sure have the qualifications and desire to jump, but he never saw any outside assignments nor did any convicts I met there.

See: http://www.ragingmain.com/tyee.htm
regarding prisoners being used to fight the 1994 Tyee fire in Washington (quoted below).

"Over the next three weeks, working side by side with experienced sawyers, Hot Shot crews, Smoke Jumpers and Forest Service and prisoner firefighting teams the Marine strike teams were no different than any fireman rookies turned salty. They were up at 4am and back at 8pm and they consumed five thousand calories a day."

If anyone can show me that state prisoners worked as smoke jumpers during Duane's incarceration time I'll eat some crow and some humble pie. The closest hit I get is conscientious objectors working as smoke jumpers during war as an alternative to combat duty.

Duane might have been Cooper, but I don't think Duane made any jumps while in Folsom or any other prison. Oh, and despite urban folklore, Johnny Cash never did time at Folsom.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

ABSOLUTELY SURE: You could actually see out the cracks - it was scary as hell. That plane was so old it was bucket of bolts.

I have an old hip problem and I could not sit for very long...so I stood in the galley area as much as possible to be out of the way and there is a door there ---it was scary. I was curious about how high we were and there were 2 pilots going back to home base and they answered my question about the Altitude. I had taken another plane from Pensacola to Atl.

[skyjack71 0]

Those prison smokejumper were between 1945 and 1959 and they also sent guys to help fight some fires besides Ca. at that time ---I have looked HI and LOW for it. I am hoping Doug made a hard copy.

[377 21]

Jo,

I have posed the question to Doug Houston who is on the Exec. Board of the National Smokejumpers Association. Is that the same Doug you refer to? Awaiting a reply to my email.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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ABSOLUTELY SURE: You could actually see out the cracks - it was scary as hell. That plane was so old it was bucket of bolts.

I have an old hip problem and I could not sit for very long...so I stood in the galley area as much as possible to be out of the way and there is a door there ---it was scary. I was curious about how high we were and there were 2 pilots going back to home base and they answered my question about the Altitude. I had taken another plane from Pensacola to Atl.

RYODER, GURU, SKYDIVE JACK? your opinions?
Reading the www.boeing-727.com system info I see that a cockpit warning horn sounds if cabin altitude exceeds 10,000 ft. How could a 727 stay pressurized if the door seals were so ineffective that you could see the outside through the gaps???? Bleed air or airconditioning pack air can keep up with minor leaks and holes, but could it maintain cabin pressure sufficient to keep the warning horn from activating if the 727 were above 10,000 feet with daylight shining through the edges of the doors? Also, aren't the 727 doors "plug" type where you couldn't see directly out through the edges even if the seals were leaky?

Jo. I am not doing this to give you a hard time, just to test the accuracy of you memory which is important since many of your "Duane is Cooper" clues are based on your present memory of past events. This 727 door thing is just one data point though. I have been in many jet airliners and have never been able to see outside scenery through door gaps while in flight, nor even any faint light leaks. Leaky doors are noticeably noisy too, and those are tiny invisible seal leaks. I imagine that a see through gap would be roaring.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SkydiveJack 1]

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ABSOLUTELY SURE: You could actually see out the cracks - it was scary as hell. That plane was so old it was bucket of bolts.

.........

RYODER, GURU, SKYDIVE JACK? your opinions?
Reading the www.boeing-727.com system info I see that a cockpit warning horn sounds if cabin altitude exceeds 10,000 ft. How could a 727 stay pressurized if the door seals were so ineffective that you could see the outside through the gaps???? Bleed air or airconditioning pack air can keep up with minor leaks and holes, but could it maintain cabin pressure sufficient to keep the warning horn from activating if the 727 were above 10,000 feet with daylight shining through the edges of the doors? Also, aren't the 727 doors "plug" type where you couldn't see directly out through the edges even if the seals were leaky?

I am not familiar with the 727 door seals in particular, but in general there is a rubber seal on the door unit itself that extends and overlaps the ajoining frame around the door. There can also be inflatable seals within the door frame that get their pressure from bleed air when the engines are started. I have had door seals leak on Lear Jets and it is very, very loud.

From my experience there is no way to see through a gap in an airliner door because there is a metal to metal overlap as well as the rubber seals.

[Ckret 0]

Some info to recreate Coopers money bag. Cooper cut all of the line from the chest pack where it was connected into the pack, separating the chute from the pack. By the way, the rubber bands in the pack show no signs of wear. By separating the chute from the pack he must have planned to put the money in the container. When he realized it would not fit, he then cut two lines, one 14'5" and the other 14'6". He then used the line to secure the bag and according to Mucklow to himself.

The bag was described as 12"x12"x9"

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

This is good information.

12x12x9 and it weighs 22 lbs.

1296 cubic inches and it occupies 5.6 gallons of space.

Rubber inside the pack left behind show no signs of wear... again, what causes rubber to become brittle? The Seattle FBI office apparently does not meet the climate conditions required.

Tina watched him perform the cuts/packing of the money, she watched him secure the bag to his person... what else did she see him do? How was he wearing his clothes? How long did it take to harness up? Did he loosen his collar or keep it buttoned?

[377 21]

Did the money bag have a drawstring to cinch up the opening? What was the bag made of?

If it did have a drawstring then possibly you could cinch it up really tight, knot the drawstring and tie the bag to your body perhaps with some shroud lines looping though the drawstring and trouser belt loops. You might hen have a wildly flopping and fluttering bag but it might still stay attached. If there was not some way to very securely keep the bag closed and tightly affixed to your body I'd bet you'd lose it upon or shortly after exit from a 727 going 150-170 knots. I have a photo of my normally tight and stable container with the flaps bowed way out just trying to pop open right after exiting the Perris DC 9 at a speed I am sure was slower than Cooper experienced. There are strong wind forces at work during an above terminal velocity exit. These forces are trying to tear things open, inflate them, tear them off and generally mess things up.

Good info on the rubber band stability in a controlled sun shielded environment. The deterioration of the bands on the found money might be due to different composition than the pack rubber bands, but I'll bet sun and outdoor conditions account for the difference. I don't think the money was underwater from 71 to when it was found. I theorize that the money hit the ground somewhere from which it could be transported by natural means to where it was found.

Can you imagine what a complete bummer it would been to have survived the jump but lost the money in freefall? That very well may have occurred.

I still think if Cooper died on the jump somebody somewhere would tie a missing person with any aviation background to the caper and gossip would have started. Could Cooper have been such a total loner that if he died NOBODY would have noticed his disappearance?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I’m just thinking out loud here:

Once again, this is just wild-a$$ speculation, but if the whole purpose of the hijacking was to settle a score with the airline (or its insurance company); the hijacker would be better off without the money. He took it from the airline/insurance carrier, so he would have gotten what he wanted. It would be hard for law enforcement to obtain a conviction, even if the guy’s alibi was weak, if the money wasn’t ever found in his possession and never showed up anywhere. Somewhere on this board someone said that $200,000 was the insurance company’s maximum liability? Was that fact or fiction?

If he was terminally ill, or thought he was terminally ill, the money wouldn’t mean squat anyway (or maybe less squat than if he wasn’t ill).

Hey! We said it was time to think out-of-the-box. That’s enough OOTB to make some sort of twisted logical sense.

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[SafecrackingPLF 0]

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Can you imagine what a complete bummer it would been to have survived the jump but lost the money in freefall? That very well may have occurred.

I guess some people don't want to admit the impossibilty that has been shown.