D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[jose9878 0]

For reference only. Note the bail-out speed.

US Navy NB6 Parachute
Mills C-9 28 Foot Canopy - Date of MFG May 1995
Good for bail-out speeds up to 150 MPH

[Ckret 0]

I have a copy of the radio teletype transmissions from 11/24/1971 from NWA flight 305 to NWA flight operations in Minneapolis. I also have a hand written log of all the conversation from NWA flight 305 to NWA flight operations via phone patch which was created by NWA flight operations in Minneapolis. Apparently they had both going that night.

[Ckret 0]

Nothing I found yet states Cooper used the words interphone.

[itllclear 1]

Quote

Nothing I found yet states Cooper used the words interphone.

Have you done a search of military records for a loadmaster of about the correct age? Any that match our "candidates?"

Do you have any fingerprints that you know come from any of our candidates that have been compared with prints from the plane? For example, did Weber have a driver license from a state that took a thumb print?

P.S. I was only 23 at the time, & wore thick glasses. Wasn't me.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[Guru312 0]

Quote

...
It is not a wild guess that ATC radar can pick up jumpers at a distance of many miles.
...

I can confirm that ATC radar can pick up jumpers at a distance of 30--50 miles.

During the early 1970s and into the 80s I often communicated with ATC while I was flying jumpers. In some cases I talked to controllers at NAFEC near Atlantic City and at other times and DZs I talked to controllers at Dover AFB. The technology available when I was flying was the same as when DB jumped.

When I first started flying jumpers I was under the impression that ATC couldn't see the jumpers because they didn't have enough metal. As 377 states in his post, all sorts of objects that aren't metal give a decent return.

I noticed that controllers who were new on the job got a big kick out of seeing the jumpers and telling how many there were. Some times they'd call me and say something like, "OK...I think I saw three that time." They were almost always correct.

Now, that said, I'd guess that the controllers on duty during DB's jump couldn't get a return on him because of the lousey weather. As I understand radar technology, rain plays havoc with resolution. That and the very transient nature of DB's jump would make picking out his return rather difficult.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

the hardware at the groin area looks like the pieces Duane had except the connector was a little more simply. maybe sleeker. The rectangle and the triangle are dead on in looks and size - it is the part between the two that seem some what different..

[jose9878 0]

Quote

the hardware at the groin area looks like the pieces Duane had except the connector was a little more simply. maybe sleeker. The rectangle and the triangle are dead on in looks and size - it is the part between the two that seem some what different..

B12 snaps? Simply sleeker.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Do you have any fingerprints that you know come from any of our candidates that have been compared with prints from the plane? For example, did Weber have a driver license from a state that took a thumb print?
.

The prints for Duane on file with the FBI are the Jefferson prints and they may not be his prints - the FBI will not dig into the back-ups before the system went into place. Unless they have done so recently due to my begging them to do the comparisons. I know for a fact when Duane went to Jefferson that the system Carr claims was in place Was Not to the extent he claimed.

The only place to find the correct prints for Duane is to pull all the prints on him that are archived in WA and do a comparison against the Jefferson prints. that went into the system. The FBI won't do it.

Carr, have you had the back-ups pulled to compare with the Jefferson prints? Don't tell me the system was in place - NO it wasn't. Unless some reason warranted the prints being checked against the old prints was not done due to cost and time.
Did the prints on the DNA items I provided match the file prints for Duane Weber?

.

[377 21]

Very interesting, especially the resolution... sufficient to accurately count individual jumpers. Wow.

Rain absorbs and attenuates microwaves, actually coverts their energy into heat just like your microwave oven. It also reflects them which is the key to weather radar's functionality. The key to busting through rain is lots of power. ATC radar is very powerful for this and other reasons. Small planes can bring down big airliners, so ATC radar is designed to resolve weak targets under adverse weather conditions. Could Cooper's echo have been seen on ATC radar in heavy rain? Nobody knows for sure but I'd bet yes. The Doppler velocity filter would suppress the rain echo but not Cooper's echo. If the radar transmitter had sufficient power, some would reach Cooper through the rain and be reflected back through the rain to the radar receiver. We had no velocity filters on the marine radar sets I used so rain squalls showed up great, but we could still see other ships. You just had to look more carefully amidst the rain clutter.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Ckret, are you 100 pct certain that the NWA 727 was radio teletype equipped? Just doesnt match all the info I have about early 70s radio gear in commercial airliners. I have 727 flight manuals (not NWA unfortunately) and no RTTY gear is shown. Same with all other medium range airliner manuals I have from that era. Where would the keyboard be located? Where would the printer or text display be located? What frequencies did they use? The only RTTY gear I see in 1970s flight manuals is HF (high frequency) RTTY carried aboard specialized military weather, sub hunter and radar picket aircraft such as the EC 121T, WV2, P3 etc. Domestic 727s did not have HF radios, just VHF. TTY was used a lot in ground to ground airline comms, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_teletype_system

I wonder if a ground to ground TTY transcript talking about the situation was mislabeled as a RTTY transcript between the plane and NWA operations. Small point, sorry to be such a nit picker, but small errors can mislead us.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Nothing I found yet states Cooper used the words interphone.

ASK Himmelsbach - he has said it many times in interviews and to others..............you really need to address somethings other than the written record - remember that after an exhausting day in the field these agents had to go back to their desk and do a WRITTEN report.

[skyjack71 0]

Thank you for the other pic of the hardware

Maybe the connections of the two parts had been altered - neither pic was dead on - touch and feel is important to me - more than my memory of the item itself. Very shiny - very easy to release - no butter fly look or triple look as the 1st one. Your last pic could be right, but it will be the feel of it in my hand and the feeling of releasing it.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Maybe we should all just compile a list of questions we have due to conflicting reports, such as the interphone word and then take the list of Q's to Himmelsbach to see if he knows the answer or to see if it was speculation or faulty information.

Skyjack71, maybe you should visit a local DZ and talk to some old timers. Maybe someone would have an old harness that you actually look at and feel... just an idea.

I've made some progress in the Washougal tributary study. Remember, with this one, we're isolating the washougal river from LaCamas. It was Washougal that flooded in 1977. I've always felt that LaCamas was a very weak tributary if we're going to try and argue for it... the reasons are because the money/body would have to float in the lake without ever being seen by fishermen, and there's been so much development in the areas that feed LaCamas, it's much harder to hide a body/open canopy in this area. Further, the areas that feed LaCamas tend to be a lot less wooded, it's much more pasture type areas.

I now need to narrow down the flight path as it headed south. What I need to know, if possible, is how the plane routed itself compared to the various beacons. It would have traveled to the battle ground VOR and then headed for Rawler towards Salem. Not only do I need to figure out where these beacons are, I need to know how the plane would fly over/near these points. Plus, Captain Scott was flying by hand a lot and has admitted he may have "drifted off course" slightly to the east. Therefore, I'd say the radar from McCord would be the most accurate as to the flight path.

But any information from those in the DZ community as to how a pilot uses the beacons to fly, that would be great. In other words, does he fly directly over the beacon and then just head towards the next one? Or does he use them as general guidelines?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Ckret, are you 100 pct certain that the NWA 727 was radio teletype equipped?

I wonder if a ground to ground TTY transcript talking about the situation was mislabeled as a RTTY transcript between the plane and NWA operations. Small point, sorry to be such a nit picker, but small errors can mislead us.

Attention Ckret:
ask Himmelsbach - he was a pilot himself and this question he would know the answer to. Another person to ask is the Co-Pilot -while he is still alive. I have his number and I am sure he can answer that question also.

Why leave these IMPORTANT questions to speculation in the future when you can get answers from those that were involved before they too have passed away. This is important data to have to establish a time line.

[dumstuntzz 0]

the nb series never used anything but the quick ejectors shown in an earlier post.so doubt that there could have been a b12 snap involved. please note that the quick ejectors on the leg straps are adjustable(while the one on the chest strap is non adjustable). while adjustable b12 snaps were made,most harnesses using b12 s havea non-adjustable b12 snap hooking up to an adjustable V ring.

[skyjack71 0]

OVER my head - we need a local person in the Panhandle area to show me these things. We could talk all day on puter and get nowhere - I have never seen a chute except in picture. The only thing I have ever seen or touched about a chute is that part Duane kept in his desk drawer - remember that I didn't know what it was until the guy at the garage sale told me when he bought it for a quarter - this is before I understood who DAN COOPER was a yr. later.

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi jose,

I think that those two photos are of a B-4 container fitted to a NB-6 harness ( not uncommon in those days ). If I remember correctly, the NB-6 container had a shorter pin spacing than a B-4/B-12 container; I 'think' 5 1/2" for the B-4/B-12 & 4 1/2" for the NB-6.

But then I could be wrong,

JerryBaumchen

PS) Where's Dan Poynter when we need him.

[Ckret 0]

I am a 100% sure that the log is titled "Ground Radio Teletype Log." I am also 100% sure it is a teletype log. The transmissions are first person account of real time information which could have only been typed by the flight crew. As to being 100% sure the aircraft had the equipment onboard, don't know. I would say from what I have yes, but I wasn't there so I'll go 99%.

[Ckret 0]

I have a question, when military aircraft are doing a drop either of people or cargo how is the craft configured, airspeed, flaps and such?

[377 21]

Thanks Ckret. I am sure you are accurately reporting what you have, and sincerely appreciate your responsiveness. I am not sure what you have is a direct RTTY transmission from the crew. I could be wrong about RTTY gear not being in 1970s 727s, but I see ZERO mention of it in numerous manuals and searches. When I am wrong about some aspect of the case, I'll gladly admit it and take my licks... wont be the first time.

I have emailed this guy to find out what comm gear was on NWA 727s during the time in question. I am sure he can find the answer if he cares to get involved:

(name omitted for privacy)
20 Year-Northwest Airlines Captain
Captain qualified in DC-9, B-727, A-320, and B-757
Instructor pilot DC-9 and B-727
28 year Northwest Airlines pilot
5 year US Air Force C-141 instructor pilot.
Chief Quality Control Check Captain B-727, Northwest Airlines
Former Assistant Director, Flight Training, Northwest Airlines
Bachelor of Science, University of Iowa

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

http://www.milpilot.net/c17gouge/c17ad_studyguide.doc

HUGE amt of airdrop info here, havent read it all yet.

Whover thought you just slow down below 150 kts and push it out the door ought to read this manual. Military airdrops are apparently highly complex operations if done by this book.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[dumstuntzz 0]

the picture shows an nb harness attached to an nb container. the giveaway is the side flaps that wrap around the corners and over the top and botton flaps.

[jose9878 0]

Info on the 4-Line Release Mod here (from someone who used it);

http://60sjumper.skydiveworld.com/start.htm

The "4-Line Release" started with the Air Force. They wanted some kind of controllability on their C-9 canopy for pilots.. They marked the four most back lines with red coloring and put a riser knife on the risers. (there's a shot of one on the ALTUS page. I carried one on my reserve for years). You opened, cursed the opening shock and the bastard that just shot you down, and took the knife and cut the red lines. This put a funny lobster-tail on the canopy but it gave it drive and it would turn fairly nicely by pulling down the back riser.

The sport world caught on fairly quickly. They put the 4-line on all kinds of reserves, but instead of cutting lines there was a slip-knot arrangement, plus steering toggles were installed. There were usually a loop in the steering lines but some had wood toggles and a few hand the type we use today. My 28' C-9 reserve had a 4-line as did a 26' Navy I had to ride down once (see Littleton Page). Para-Gear sold a metal release device and still may.

[377 21]

Here is the unedited complete verbatim reply from a highly experienced NWA 727 Capt:

"While I can’t say that I actually stood in the flight deck of a B727 on 1971, I certainly did stand on them in 1986 since they were still there then, even the -100s. There was never any comm. gear except the VHF radios. It seems HIGHLY unlikely that NWA ever paid for anything like Radio teletype gear unless they bought it used from the Army Air Corps. I agree with you that whatever he is in possession of has been mislabeled. No doubt what the agent has is a transcript from either the SEA or PDX station to Dispatch which originated from the airplane via VHF radio to one of those two stations."

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

If there was no RTTY gear in the 727, what does that do to our jump run timeline? It would take time for someone to transcribe a VHF voice message from the 727 and then type it on a teletype and send it to another ground station. I am 99% confident that there was no RTTY gear on the 727. Nothing in the 1970s era manuals even mentions it and full photos of all panels and comm gear are shown. RTTY gear was definitely not on NWA 727s later (1986) when they still had the original 727-100 models in the fleet, according to an NWA Captain who flew and instructed on them. If they were ever there why would they have been removed? So... lets re-examine the jump run timeline.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.