D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Very useful post.

It would appear that the FBI agent who made the report errored in either the "6" part of NB6 or the "8" part in 28'. I'm guessing you're right, that it wasn't a 28 stuffed into a 26 container.

What would be the main differences between the 26' conical and the 28' that many have spoke of on this thread? It sounds like both were very common. We mentioned the 28 cannot steer and I'd guess that would go for the 26 as well? I'd also guess the 26 gives a slightly faster descend rate than the 28, yes? But then perhaps Cooper can theoretically pull the ripcord faster even though he has all that horizontal speed?

As for Cooper opening the Chute... we know he opened the other main, this is the one Ckret shows on TV all the time, it's a pink canopy and the pack appears to be green.

[377 21]

Surplus canopies rot so fast you wouldnt believe it if exposed to direct sunlight. They cannot take UV for long without serious fabric degradation in my experience. If left out long enough the fabric almost crumbles to the touch. We used surplus canopies (various types, usually with ripstop fabric) as sea anchors on fishing boats. They hold up for many years if their only use was being submerged in salt water. It's the UV that kills em. We always stored them in canvas bags after pulling them out of the water with no rinsing and minimal hang drying. I think the shroud lines would last a lot longer than the canopy fabric if it hung up in a tree. Most people who tried using a surplus canopy as a car cover soon learned just how poorly they fare in sunlight. Riggers know all about this and could post more exact information. Nobody is going to find a full intact Cooper canopy snared in a tree. My guess is that at best youd find some rotted lines and tattered remains of the canopy fabric. At worst the remnants might be almost unrecognizable.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

I have seen surplus 26 ft Navy conicals and 28 ft miltary rounds with what is called a 4 line cut mod. I dont know when the military started doing this mod but it allowed some pilot steerability without cutting vent holes in the canopy. A rigger could tell us more about this mod, what it is, when it started and whether it might have been present on the Cooper chutes. I have jumped 28 ft rounds (many times)and a 26 ft Navy conical (once). Performance wasnt hugely different although the 26 ft canopy seemed to let me down softer than the 28 ever did. You wouldnt see a huge difference in the descent path of either one in my opinion.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skydogs 0]

So, if he were to wrap the $$ in the canopy then bury it, do you think it would provide any protection?

[377 21]

Answer is probably is highly dependent on soil acidity. I have heard that the soil under conifer trees generally has high acidity.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

The thing is, there's different types of "elements" we ought to be mindful of.

377 mentioned UV. Just speaking of money only, UV would fade the outer bills while the inner bills were protected. Then there's water... well, there's obviously water damage and there would be no matter what... the question is, what type of damage are we talking about? Does it look like stacks were just sitting at the bottom in silt of a river? How quickly would stacks rot from mold if they just sat out... sitting out would cause them to get wet, but also dry quicker. But then they'd be exposed to wind & rain. But, if it were in a bag, it would be protected from all sun, wind, and rain, along with most debris... but the moisture that could creep in would stay longer and linger, which would provide a nice environment for even more mold. I'd think wrapping the bag in a parachute would help to keep moisture out, and also keep it there more once it penetrated the fabrics. Burying under ground would act the same way, protecting it, but also locking moisture in... plus, in rainy season, if you bury something dry in the dirt, you may as well just throw it in a lake... I did this once as a kid in the NW and it was a disaster. Actually, I think it would be worse than a lake because a lake would at least keep air out, while the combination of air + water would equal destruction.

The question we want to ask ourselves eventually, if it's even possible, is how much of the damage to the bills happend while it sat on the beach, and how much happened before it got there? The bills crumbling apart definitely sound like post-beach... while the rot could be from either. I think Ckret is right in looking at the rubber bands for more clues.... I think the crumbling rubber bands also seems post-beach, due to wild swings in humidity, possible UV damage, and dramatic changes in temperature.

[NickDG 23]

>>28 ft miltary rounds with what is called a 4 line cut mod. I dont know when the military started doing this mod but it allowed some pilot steerability without cutting vent holes in the canopy.
I think you mean the Four Line Release Mod. It was a mechanical way to release the rear four lines on unmodified canopies used in military ejection seats. But not so much for steerability as stability. Unmodified canopies, without some lines released, will simply oscillate too much and causes landing injuries.

Originally, before the mechanical Four Line Release, the four lines were color coded in red and the pilot was trained to physically cut the four lines free with a knife after opening. However during their debriefs most pilots (who are essentially first time jumpers) admitted that after seeing that the canopy opened quickly decided, "I ain't cutting jack!"

So the mechanical releases were introduced where all you had to do was pull on some red loops to release them. I don’t know how old they are. I first saw them in the early 70s.

NickD

[dumstuntzz 0]

the 4 line release was an AirForce mod.the navy never (to my knowledge ) used it.however a civilian rigger could have.but i find it unlikely .the 4 line release did not really gain a significant foothold in skydiving till about 1973 or 74. what was more common was the single doghouse(or blowhole as some called it).just a single window about 36 inches high cut out of the bottom end of the rear center gore. not real effective.the canopy will still oscillate , and turns /forward speed are almost non exsistant.could also have have a tri vent (3 dog houses) which was only marginally better than 1.26 canopy with a 4 line release is possible, but rate of descent is much higher than a 28 with a 4 line.
thing about the 4 line release is , you have to have some knowledge of what it is in order to activate and use it.(unexperienced person probably would not activate it )

[377 21]

We used rubber bands to secure baits to commercial fishing gear. As long as they were submerged they didnt seem to rot. We never kept them long enough to see if they would rot when stored dry and dark. Give them a lot of sunlight and rot would begin. I have had old but unused parachute packing rubber bands "self rot" even when stored in "perfect" conditions, dark ccol and dry in their original box.

There seems to be a difference between the self rot and the UV rot. The UV rot was characterized by cracks and surface oxidation but not much liquid gummy residue. The self rot seemed to be a lot messier, with goopy residue. I'd like to know more about the Cooper money rubber band conditions when found. Were they still elastic? Were they oozing gummy residue? Did they show surface oxidation more on the outside (sun exposed) than inside surface? If they showed substantial UV type damage then it was likely on the ground or in a tree before it was found in the river dirt.

I'll bet there is a chemist or material scientist jumper who knows a lot about this. I noticed that the line stow bands in the unmodified NB Navy containers used cloth rather than rubber, probably to keep rubber band rot from spoiling a good deployment.

I remain amazed by the money find and the door placard find. How unlikely is that??? Just about everything that left the 727 that night has been found, except Mr. Cooper.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[dumstuntzz 0]

26 ft navy conical is NOT lo po.it is 80 to 120 cfm vs 40 to 60 for the lopo 1.1. NOT F111

[ryoder 1,402]

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I have seen surplus 26 ft Navy conicals and 28 ft miltary rounds with what is called a 4 line cut mod. I dont know when the military started doing this mod but it allowed some pilot steerability without cutting vent holes in the canopy. A rigger could tell us more about this mod, what it is, when it started and whether it might have been present on the Cooper chutes.

It is called a "4-Line Release". The advantages of the 4-line release were that:
1. It gave you the opening reliability of an unmodified canopy.
2. The steerability of a modified one.
3. A TSO'd canopy gained steerability w/o modifying it and voiding the TSO.

The initial version of the device was a red aluminum cylinder that slipped onto each connector link in place of two of the lines. Then you slipped those two lines into the cylinder and pushed a locking pin through the cylinder and the loops on the two lines. After deployment the jumper pulled both pins, releasing the lines to trail behind the canopy. The skirt of the canopy formed a "doghouse" where the lines were released. Steering was done by pulling down on the line adjacent to the doghouse.

One caveat was that you needed to reach up and grab the lines above the cylinder and pull down to take the tension off before pulling the pin, else the pin could get jammed sideways as you pulled it. A later version of the 4-Line Release got rid of the metal and just used a daisy-chained piece of red suspension line. It was cheaper and easier to use.

My first reserve was a 26' Navy conical with the 4-Line Release. Navy conicals were highly prized way back then becasue the suspension lines stopped about a foot above the skirt, as opposed the the 24' Army reserves which ran the lines all the way up through the apex. As a result the Navy canopy was larger but packed much smaller than the Army canopy. From my experience, the 4-Line Release worked great, and the landing was better than the damn ParaCommanders of the era.

From what I read, it sounds like the rigs Cooper got were two NB-6 emergency aircrew rigs and two Quick-Attachable-Chest reserves. It is highly unlikely anyone would install a 4-line release in an emergency backpack because it would hardly ever get used, and when it did, the jumper would most likely be a pilot that didn't even know what the 4-line release was, and wouldn't even use it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,402]

On the topic of canopy fabric, UV, and rot: I was doing some digging for life expectancy of canopy fabric and found information that ozone is considered a reason that canopy fabric eventually weakens even if not exposed to UV, (eg reserve canopies). I have seen 20+ yo reserves that looked brand new but tore like kleenex. Perhaps rubber bands also are degraded by ozone in the air.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[377 21]

Wish the NWA pilots had thought to dump fuel immediately after the oscillations or pressure bump or whatever the event was. I was fishing off the SF coast when an airliner having a problem after takeoff flew around offshore (at what looked like about 5000 ft ) dumping fuel to get the weight down so they could land. Even though it vaporized, it left a sea surface trail that you could smell for quite a while. Residents who lived under the 727 would have definitely smelled the fuel mist that came to earth.

I still think someone should see if the raw radar data tapes still exist. Bet Cooper was visible as a small speck from exit until deployment, following plane track and falling sightly behind as he decelerated. Might only be visible for a sweep or two but worth investigating. If birds can be seen so could Cooper who should be a much better reflector than a Pelican. ATC radar has Doppler velocity filters to keep slow flying birds and stationary objects in the beam path from showing up on the scope. Cooper was going fast enough to avoid the filters until his chute opened.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

Ryoder nails it again!

When I lived in LA my wiper blades would be shot after a couple of months. When I moved to SF they would last waaaay longer. Now that I think of it ozone in the LA air pollution was a likely culprit as the car was garaged in LA during most of the sunlight hours.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

The collective IQ of the DZ forum has to be near a 1,000. You guys are geniuses!

Okay... here's a thought. The rubber bands have to be enclosed in *something* for a period of time. From Ckret's post about them, he mentioned them crumbling to the touch... I think through time and being on the beach for however long it was, it would explain the wear. But how long could they last before just crumbling off without anyone touching?

They also need to be strong enough at the time they flowed down the river and deposited on the beach.

When I say *something* had to enclose the money, that assumes Cooper didn't have them stacked in his kitchen pantry before going out and "planting" them on a random beach.

I've seen the melting you're referring to, it ruins things, but usually I've seen this as a result of heat, such as sitting in a car. I've never seen anything like this on money sitting in my safe... but then again, I haven't had the same bills in there for 8 years (and the conditions could hardly compare to what we're talking about).

Would a damp, dark, and somewhat enclosed environment (such as canvas bag either buried or lying around in the woods) keep the rubber in pretty good condition for a long period of time?

Ckret, do you have pictures of these bills? And by pictures, I mean pictures of the stacks before they're spread out, or did the ingrams already spread them out before the FBI got there?

[Ckret 0]

They had taken the money home, not aware of the Cooper case, and laid it out in their kitchen to dry. In interviews they described the money as being found in three bundles with the rubber bands wrapped around the money. The bundles broke apart when they handled the money because the bands crumbled to the touch. The money was described to be in varying states of decay from almost whole to scrap. So, when the bundles arrived at the beach the bands were strong enough to keep the bundles together but however long they sat there decayed to the point of crumbling to the touch. Those in the know at the time stated no more than a year.

[377 21]

Air traffic controllers from Chicago Center at Aurora, Illinois, also came to see what was happening on "the other end" of the 300-way world record attempt. While they were there, the controllers also made tandem skydives. Dave Cottingham summarized Chicago Center's cooperative spirit with the attempt. "It isn't as difficult as some would believe. Roger Nelson and these guys are going for a world record. We're just moving the other airplanes out of their way."

Controller Steve Meitz described what he sees on his radar screen when the aircraft are in formation. "The airplanes are visible. But when the 300 skydivers jump out, they look like a large cloud of digital primaries [small crosses marking primary radar targets that don't have transponders]."

GOOGLE Maps shows about 43 miles between Aurora (ATC) and Ottowa Illinois (Skydive Chicago DZ) but you'd really need to know where the radar antenna is located to get exact range. How far was the McCord radar from the estimated exit point?

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[mark 104]

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Controller Steve Meitz described what he sees on his radar screen when the aircraft are in formation. "The airplanes are visible. But when the 300 skydivers jump out, they look like a large cloud of digital primaries [small crosses marking primary radar targets that don't have transponders]."

Is it the case now that controllers can suppress primary returns when the screen is cluttered, so they can concentrate on the airplanes they care about? Would that have been possible then?

Also, could the signal processing or filters be set to eliminate slow-moving targets like large birds (or skydivers), again as a way to reduce screen clutter? If it could be done then, was the radar set to look for a jumper, or just to follow metal aircraft?

Mark

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Very good.

I take it then they spread out all three bundles?

If I understand the "knowns" regarding the money, we're looking at money that had some significant protection from the elements for a long period of time, possibly until the point when they washed up, and they washed up between Feb 10 1979 and Feb 10 1980. We can probably narrow this range somewhat in that some time obviously passed. If it were a year, perhaps the "people" in the know would have said it's about a year, but they said less than a year, and the wear would suggest more than a day, so it's likely a significant time after 2-10-79 and before 2-10-80. Is there anything in the reports that would give us a clue to possibly narrow this range further?

[skyjack71 0]

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377,
Maybe Ckret can give us a map location for this find... all I have is that it was "near" Toutle.

Toutle was the area penciled in a book that had been in Duane's possession from the Library - it was penciled in in his handwriting. The one thing besides a candy bar I ever stole in my life. After I read that book with his handwriting in it in two places - I kept checking it out until I could not do so anymore - then I told them I lost it. They sent me a bill fo $5.00 for the book I sent them a check of $25. due to my quilty conscience.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Another clue to the time is the ground radio teletype log. It my understanding that the teletype will automatically log the time with the communication. The crew typed a message which was logged at 8:12 and mentioned oscillations not a bump.

"

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Did the NWA 727 have radioteletype capabilities? Technically possible but commercially doubtful in those days. ACARS is installed in most airliners today which allows crews to type messages to dispatchers, operations centers, maintenance etc. but it wasnt operating in the 70s.

RTTY (radioteletype) has been in USAF planes since the 50s, but was not widely adopted by commercial airliners as far as I know. Until the advent of ACARS most domestic airliners just had voice comms. So called "phone calls" were usually just VHF radio comms relayed through a "phone patch" on the ground which was the electronic equivalent of holding the radio speaker up to the phone mic and the phone earpiece up to the radio mic.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

Sorry for all the tech detail, but since the timing of the pressure fluctuation is so critical to the exit point estimates, I thought I'd mention that the assumption that the NWA 727 crew actually typed any message to the ground may be in error.

The facts Ckret, just the facts please.

[377 21]

Radar doesnt know if something is metal or feathers. It just sees reflected microwave signals and displays them on a scope. The more reflective the target, the stronger the received reflection and the more prominent the displayed pip on the scope.

Despite intuition, wood, animals, even fiberglass actually give decent radar reflections. Using 4 KW marine radar I have seen Pelicans, fiberglass kayaks, and wood rowboats at considerable distances under flat calm sea surface conditions.

Stealth design puts a lot of thought into absorbing the energy of the incident transmitted signal so that there is little energy left to reflect. They do this with special coating materials (RAM: radar absorbing material) and also with absorbing/attenuating cone and triangle geometric structural designs (look at the F 117 for examples) and flat angled surfaces that reflect the signals, but in a direction away from the radar that transmitted them.

The British Mosquito WW2 aircraft had a mostly wood structure but it showed up fine on radar and would have (to a lesser extent) even without all the metal it contained in the engines, radios, etc.

ATC radar has now, and had at the time of the Cooper jump, Doppler velocity filters that are generally set to reject echos from targets moving slower than the slowest aircraft you would expect to see. This is prevent slow flying birds and stationary objects like mountain tops from showing up and cluttering the screen. A skydiver exiting a jet is moving considerably faster than the filter threshold speed and would not be filtered out, at least not for quite a few seconds, definitely long enough to show up for a few antenna sweeps.

I bet that Cooper showed up briefly on ATC radar but would not be noticed unless you were looking for it. You would expect to see a very weak target first showing up very slightly behind the jet, following the same course, and lagging further behind as he slowed down and the jet maintained speed.

It is not a wild guess that ATC radar can pick up jumpers at a distance of many miles. The ATC guy quoted in my post verified it and an ATC jumper I spoke to at WFFC told me the same thing.

Engineers can argue that a jumper falling straight down might still be filtered out because his velocity relative to the radar location is close to zero, BUT... Cooper had the initial exit speed and course of the 727 and his echo would not have been suppressed by the Doppler filters on the ATC radar until his velocity relative to the radar location fell below about 70 mph. ATC techs can jump in and tell us what velocity limit is set on the Doppler filters, but I'd guess it is somewhere around 60 mph so they could still see a Piper Cub or other slow plane. The lower the limit, the longer Cooper would have painted an echo.

It would be interesting to pull the radar tapes that caught the jumps from Perris's DC 9-21 at WFFC in Rantuol Illinois in 2006. I bet you'd see about 85 examples of what Cooper's echo looked like. I was one of them.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[itllclear 1]

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then it would certainly point towards military jumper

I'm thinking more of a loadmaster without any actual jump experience.

Which of our "candidates" fits that description?

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[377 21]

IF Cooper used the word Interphone (as some say he did, but I cant get any verification) then I'd say loadmaster is a good call. They would use Interphones a lot. Military jumpers (paratroopers) might never use one or know what it is called. Intercom is what airline cabin crews call them. A lot of skydivers are ex Airborne, hope they chime in and give us corrections or affirmations.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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So, if he were to wrap the $$ in the canopy then bury it, do you think it would provide any protection?

Some of the money was packed in a 5 gal plastic bucket found at an open shed on the Columbia. There was no door on the shed - it was alway open. There are now new homes where the old cabin used to be (This is where he went down to the water) just East of Winterly - the home with the buckets available was West of Winterly. Since he couldn't find the bucket - it is most likely that the Flood dislodged it. and sent it on down the Columbia.

This is the first time I have PUBLICALLY disclosed the location East of Winterly Park...I have not done so until this moment except to the FBI - just hope savengers don't go out and destroy property looking for something that is no longer there.